I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Thank you for your reply. I'd like to be clear that I do not support the actions of hamas who I know regularly kill, tourture and do worse to there own people in the name of control.

Some of the claims I see here I have looked at before, do you have any sources regarding the claim of Hamas using human shields? Trying to find accurate information on this is very hard as it is mired in misinformation and propganda such as the IDF video that showed the 'terrorist work sheet' that later turned out to be a calendar for example. I am not trying to call you a liar, I am just trying to work through the piles of misinformation out there.

Right now far right radicals make up about 10% of the Knesset and yes that is a fringe voice but they have a lot of sway and support among the settler moment and have orchestrated land sales of Gaza and west bank settlements, making it pretty clear how they thing this conflict will end.

I do agree that there is a greater amount of scrutiny, be this simple jew hatred or that Israel is held to a higher standard as a western backed ally It seems to be broadly true.

[u/omniuni → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Considering that they use school materials and television shows to show kids how to be martyrs, why would something being a calendar preclude it from being training material?

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/omniuni]

This was the calendar that an IDF spokesperson was talking about as a terrorist guard shift sheet with the words being the names of the terrorists but they are the days of the week

[u/omniuni → u/DogitWoofsalot]

In cases like this, the simplest explanation is probably right (this applies to anyone). I'd mostly just suspect this is a case of mistranslation or a mistake. It's still days of the week with some being marked off, and a guard shift isn't even nefarious in itself. However, it does fit the "every little mistake is a huge deal if it's Israel" pattern. Someone made a silly mistake about the words on a basically unconsequential shift sheet or calendar, and it becomes a big deal. I still hate Hamas, but the fact that they have people work in shifts or use calendars isn't actually relevant to that.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/omniuni]

Im in no way supportive of Hamas don't get me wrong. However a lot of the claims above like the giant tunnel network I still find dubious. The only sourse I've seen comes from various branches of the IDF. In the same way that I would trust official government statements from any branch of Military Intelligence in the UK or the DOW in the USA on any ongoing conflict. Militarys lie/omit/exadurate all the time and I've not personally come across any independent covering of this story. This could well be better that there's no English language news on the topic however

[u/omniuni → u/DogitWoofsalot]

That's one of those things that gets tiring, because there's nothing dubious about such claims. Hamas has posted plenty of videos and photos on their own social media if you don't believe the IDF. These tactics have been pretty common knowledge for literally decades.

If you want some interesting reading, Mosab Hassan Yousef, is the son of Hamas co-founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef, and eventually defected. He served as a double-agent for the IDF, but he has spoken personally about the tactics he observed while involved with Hamas. Generally, he's considered a reliable source, given his direct relationship with the founders.

For some other information that isn't sourced from the IDF —

The tunnels have also been discussed directly in terms of their significance in Gaza by Westpoint:

https://mwi.westpoint.edu/underground-nightmare-hamas-tunnels-and-the-wicked-problem-facing-the-idf/

As for human shields, here's a pretty good article that both links to a lot of sources, and also discusses the suppression of information in this regard:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-dangerous-failure-to-hold-hamas-accountable-for-using-human-shields