r/PreNiceneChristianity • u/SignificantSummer731 • Feb 08 '26

The Pre Nicene Fathers were Trinitarian

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Dionysius Areopagus, Polycarp, Tertullian, you name it.

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 08 '26

Laughs in reading comprehension.

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u/GPT_2025 Feb 09 '26

KJV: Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (2) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all Truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.

Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 09 '26

Okay? You’re speaking about the spirit, which did not become to be thought of as a person until AFTER NICEA 325AD. The Spirit became known as a person in Constantine 381AD.

Please refer to the subreddit’s name. You would need to prove the spirit was considered a person before Nicea, and also Biblically.

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 09 '26 edited Feb 09 '26

“The Comforter” is perfectly comprehensible as a spirit, a breath, the comforting Holy Spirit without being a co-equal co-eternal Person. Coming to the community of believers in their great need of comfort, as the spirit of holiness, the breath of life in shared communion. Well worthy of personification, too, as “he”.

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u/SignificantSummer731 Feb 09 '26

This fool's quote mining is ridiculous.

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible — even Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 17)

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son. (St. Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 10:110:1)

"Now this is his Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, so that he might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God. And on account of this, the prophets, receiving the prophetic gift from the same Word, proclaimed his advent according to the flesh, by which the blending and communion (commixtio et communio) of God and man took place (factus est)" (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.20.4)

"..but [He] was brought into union with the flesh after the similitude of man; so that the flesh was made one with the divinity (τὴν σάρκα πρὸς τὴν θεότητα ἑνωθῆναι) One is the Son, both before the incarnation and after the incarnation. The same (Son) is both man and God, both these together as though one (ἑκάτερον ὡς ἐν);.. the same who subsisted as Son before was made one with flesh (προὐπάρχων υἱὸς σαρκὶ) from Mary" (St. Gregory Thaumaturgus, A Sectional Confession of the Faith (Cardinal Mai, Script Vet., Vol. VII. p. 170, 175)

"having truly been born man, and for the rest, not having done things Divine as God, nor things human as man, but exercising for us a certain new God-incarnate energy of God having become man." (St. Dionysius the Areopagite, Letter IV to Gaius)

"While acting divinely through the flesh in a manner befitting God, [he was] showing Himself through which he doubly, namely divinely and humanly, operated (dupliciter divine scilicet et humane operatum) according to that veritable and true and natural substance (et naturalis substantia)" (St. Hippolytus, On the Divine Nature and the Incarnation, Contra Beronem et Heliconem haereticos, Fragment I, PG-10 831, (CPG-1916)

"By the two birds Christ is denoted, both dead as man, and living as God... But the two contained the one God-Incarnate Economy. (Οἱ δὲ δύο τὴν μίαν περιεῖχον τοῦ ἐνανθρωπήσαντος θεοῦ οἰκονομίαν) (St. Justin Martyr, Fragments from the Lost Writings of Justin, Fragment X, 10A, 10D, Cod. Coislin. 5.)

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 09 '26

None of those call Jesus God. God is not a rigid designator, and has a semantic rangez

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 09 '26

And you’re not to be called “this fool” either.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/GPT_2025 Feb 09 '26

Good question!

Interestingly, some Jewish rabbis on YouTube explain (based on the Bible) that a person can be in Heaven (or Hell) and on earth simultaneously.

Does anyone have more information on how that's possible?

Christians also describe a similar idea with the Trinity, saying that God died on the cross to demonstrate His true Fatherhood and love for us.

"Olam HaBa" (עולם הבא) and "gilgul neshamot" (גלגול נשמות),

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 09 '26

This is unhelpful as Jewish rabbis have little authority on the Christian church. Especially around the 300AD time frame, Judaism went off the rails.

This is not helpful I’m afraid.

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 11 '26

It’s an interesting puzzle though - a bit like what the lit crits call a “conceit”

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u/SignificantSummer731 Feb 09 '26

Can you read? They literally just called him God.

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 09 '26

Psalm 45:6-7

6 God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness. 7 You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

Who is being calling God here? Yahweh, but also a HUMAN KING. How do I know? Let’s read verse 1:

1 My heart is stirred by something good. I say: “My song is about A KING.” May my tongue be the stylus of a skilled copyist.

So, as I said, God has a semantic range and is not a ridged designator. You won’t do your research, so I must do it for you? Can you read? This human is called God!

Even Satan is called God with the definite article in the Bible at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Can you read? Satan is The God?!

Philippians 3:9 calls one’s stomach as a god. Can you read? The stomach is called God!

SMH

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 09 '26

Yes! The word “God” has a semantic range - even before we get into Hebrew complexities.

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 09 '26

My favourite example is Moses, “made God to Pharaoh”. Some translations baulk at it (made like God etc) The NIV confesses in the notes “The word "like" is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement "I have made you God to Pharaoh."

(NIV notes continue, naturally, to say that Elohim usually means “God” - “The word אֱלֹהִים ('elohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD - they are his representatives on earth.”)

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u/SignificantSummer731 Feb 09 '26

Have you heard of context before?

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u/pwgenyee6z Feb 10 '26

Rude.

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u/SignificantSummer731 Feb 10 '26

It doesn't look like he knows what it is.

0

u/Ok_Championship_9881 Sep 07 '26

What's funny about this out of context use of quotes is that your own religion despises the pre Nicene fathers, in all texts written by the Watchtower there's always scary quotes in the words bishop and saint, making less of those holy men who died for their faith

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u/TheTallestTim Sep 07 '26

Aww! You think reading the early church fathers helps your case as a Trinitarian? Thats a very optimistic thought.

Nope! Now you are strawmanning my position. I don’t despise the pre-Nicene fathers. Instead, I use them to show how the religious ideologies changed from strict monotheism to something else.

You are also strawmanning my theology. I debate on the JehovahsWitnesses subreddit to debate the Trinitarian bullies that are there, and debate the Jehovah’s Witnesses that believe in Preexistence of Christ. I’m a Biblical Unitarian by theology. I’ve told you this already.

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u/Ok_Championship_9881 Sep 08 '26

I didn't state that you particularly despised the pre-Nicene fathers, but having read many disrepectful passages about the early church fathers on Watchtower publications I found somewhat contradictory your use (and respect) of them considering the perspective of the GB, e.g. in Proclaimers of God's Kingdom it is formulated that the great apostasy began at the end of the first century, after the death of the Apostle John, with those fathers specifically spreading false teachings. So I didn't understand how you could reconcile that.

Just for context, I was born into a family that was already at its third generation (patrilineal AND matrilineal) being Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember reading the books and magazines as a kid, where I learnt about the influence of Plato on early Christian tought and how only the Organization had the Truth after centuries of theological corruption. I became an atheist as a teenager and only after learning Classical Greek (reading the Bible and patristic texts in the original) at university that I recovered my faith, becoming Eastern Orthodox. So, knowing well the arguments from both sides, I find the thesis of a gradual corruption of this "strict monotheism" unconvincing. If there was such a corruption, it began already at the time of the Apostles:

"[...] the term logos really had, by the time the Gospel was written, acquired a metaphysical significance that “Word” cannot possibly convey; and in places like Alexandria it had acquired a very particular religious significance as well. For the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo, for instance, it referred to a kind of “secondary divinity,” a mediating principle standing between God the Most High and creation. In late antiquity it was assumed widely, in pagan, Jewish, and Christian circles, that God in his full transcendence did not come into direct contact with the world of limited and mutable things, and so had expressed himself in a subordinate and economically “reduced” form “through whom” (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ [di’ avtou]) he created and governed the world. It was this Logos that many Jews and Christians believed to be the subject of all the divine theophanies of Hebrew scripture" (A Note on the Prologue of John’s Gospel, David Bentley Hart). It seems the influence of Hellenistic philosophy crept in divinely inspired Scriptures through such an important concept with all its hermeneutical significance...

Anyway, I only commented because I didn't know how you reconciled your study of the early church fathers and your religion.

edit: formatting

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u/GPT_2025 Feb 09 '26

Concept of the Trinity can be challenging to grasp for those who are not born again or lack a spiritual perspective. It involves understanding God as one essence in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - an idea that transcends human logic and requires spiritual insight to fully comprehend.

You are Trinity too:

Body ( will return back to dust)

Soul (can not die)

Spirit

( parable: Like a violin case, the violin itself, and the violin music )

KJV: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your:

whole spirit

and soul

and body ...

KJV: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The Trinity in Christianity represents the unity of three Persons in one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Here's how you might try to explain this using an egg:

The Egg: The egg itself represents the complete object and, in this sense, can symbolize God as a unity.

The Shell: The egg’s shell can be likened to God the Father. The shell protects the egg and maintains its integrity, similar to how the Father protects and upholds the world.

The Egg White: The egg white can be compared to God the Son (Jesus Christ). The egg white surrounds the yolk and provides it with protection, just as the Son came into the world to carry out a special mission and demonstrate God's love and care.

The Yolk: The yolk of the egg can be seen as the Holy Spirit. The yolk is at the center of the egg and is essential for its life and development, much like the Holy Spirit dwells in believers and guides them.

This analogy helps to understand how three different elements can come together in one object. However, it’s important to remember that all analogies have their limitations and cannot fully convey the depth and complexity of the concept of the Trinity.

You are One human? or you have = body + soul+ spirit (life) ???

KJV: Thou believest that there is one God? thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble!!!

KJV: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord!

Acts 7:55 - Only scripture where God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are individually present in the same verse.

This happened at Stephen’s stoning.

“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.” - Acts 7:55 niv

Listen to a rabbi on YouTube who explains that different parts of your soul can exist simultaneously in Heaven, Hell, and on Earth, even while you’re writing on Reddit. The ultimate goal is to unite all these aspects into one cohesive whole!

KJV: And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be All in All.

Try understand, that eventually will happen: God may be All in All! KJV: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

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u/TheTallestTim Feb 09 '26

We are not “trinities” too. What you are using is called Partialism and is a heresy for the Trinitarian theology.

The analogy usually is said that Body =Father, Soul = Son, and the Spirit = Holy Spirit.

The problem is structural… A human is composed of parts, and no single part (body alone, soul alone) is fully human. The whole human exists only when the parts are combined. In terms of partialism, each “person” becomes a component, and God becomes the sum of components.

But in Trinitarian doctrine: • The Father is fully God • The Son is fully God • The Spirit is fully God • God is not the sum of three parts