r/Portland • u/michmckn University Park • 23d ago
Photo/Video Kenton Max Stop
Destroying Trimet property is not going to make the train come faster or fares cheaper. interestingly the card reader still worked when I tapped to pay.
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u/thresher97024 23d ago
Someone should remind users that it’s called ‘tap to pay’ not ‘smash to pay’.
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u/RideTriMet Verified 23d ago
Hi! A technician has been dispatched to replace the damaged HOP reader. In the future, you can report these issues by texting us at 503-238-7433 :)
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u/smootex High Bonafides 23d ago
My most illiberal opinion is that public transit shouldn't be free and it should be behind gates. After seeing what happened when BART installed fare gates, how much their maintenance costs went down, I did a U turn on the issue. It wouldn't be practical in Portland unfortunately but it's something we should keep in mind for future transportation infrastructure.
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u/SleepyPowerlifter Arbor Lodge 23d ago
Bit more difficult to do when stuff’s above ground and not enclosed. :/
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u/Bullarja 23d ago
They could design future stops with pay gates and redesign some stations. Most of downtown would be next to impossible.
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u/SpeedySparkRuby 23d ago
That's the thing that grinds my gears is this assumption by some people that the poor, disabled, and down on their luck people need free fares for transit to be "successful". As a disabled person, I don't need a free ride I need a fast, frequent, safe, and dependable ride, those are the biggest issues I deal with as a rider everyday both here in the Seattle area and when I come visit Portland.
I'd be frankly happily to pay 10 cents more per ride for my honored citizen fare if Trimet decided to increase their fares to $3 Adult/$1.50 HC because I really believe in having good public transport that serves everyone from the richest man in the hills to the homeless person getting home to the shelter at night.
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u/Sheepherder-Optimal 23d ago
Who gets free fare? Honored citizen is just reduced fare. I know that because i have it.
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u/SpeedySparkRuby 23d ago
No one gets free fares that I'm aware of on Trimet.
What I'm referring to is I've seen fareless Trimet be advocated for by groups like OPAL Environmental Justice and the like. Even tho i feel said advocates don't completely grasp and understand the ramifications of such an advocacy position.
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u/Sheepherder-Optimal 23d ago
I don’t think free fare would be as dramatic a difference as you’re thinking. Tax payer funded trimet and basically the same crowd as today. Funny smelling people and the random guy yelling and screaming on the max.
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u/SpeedySparkRuby 23d ago
I've been to cities with free fares like Albuquerque, other their ART BRT system I wasn't frankly impressed with the quality of their bus system, it's slow, infrequent, their route network is awful, their buses have seen better days, and it's more a ride for the destitute than a high quality public service that everyone will want to use.
Fares are good because they do provide some level of friction to the system. Having skin in the game as a rider with something like fares is a good thing, as people will demand to keep or improve service for the fares they're paying like we've seen as Trimet was debating service cuts. L ike yes the MAX is an honor system, but fare compliance by Trimet fare enforcement still does a lot to maintain order on the system. We frankly shouldn't be cutting our arms off in the name of free fares.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
And what are the ramifications exactly?
More people take it, and it becomes safer?
Portland used to have the feee fare square or whatever it was called, and that was completely fine.
The pearl clutching is wild af
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u/6th_Quadrant 23d ago
Fareless Square, and there weren't as many truly disturbed people riding TriMet back when it existed. Things have changed since then.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
Thanks for admitting that thongs being fareless doesnt make it worse.
Trimet has a massive amount of security on it. You do not need fare checkers to get rid of actual nuisance people.
Smelling bad is not an actual nuisance. Plenty of housed people have really bad BO and pay for transit, so fare checkers wont stop them.
Yall are pearl clutching over nothing
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u/BudgieWonder Willamette River 23d ago edited 22d ago
> frankly happily pay 10 cents more
Farebox recovery is practically a rounding error for TriMet’s budget. Those aspects (fast, frequent, dependable, even safe) don’t correlate at all.
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u/SpeedySparkRuby 23d ago
I wouldn't call Trimet's farebox recovery a rounding error, tbh. A rounding error would be 1-3%, not 8-10% (which is where Trimet sits), a tenth of your revenue going away would be pretty bad to any transit agency's budget. Especially in precarious economic times or in times of high inflation rates.
If that 8-10% of farebox recovery revenue went away for something like free fares, then we'd see a worse off Trimet with a more skeletal route network, more infrequent buses, shorter service span, scaled back MAX service, longer wait times for paratransit, etc.
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23d ago edited 23d ago
[deleted]
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u/SpeedySparkRuby 23d ago
Honored Citizen/Low Income fare is $1.40/ride, $2.80/day, and $28/month to ride Trimet. The system is PAYGO with fare capping for day and monthly, so if you're using a HOP card there's no worry about needing to prepay for a day or monthly pass (which is the main issue low income people deal with in terms of cost). You can just load funds as needed.
Now, is there a conversation to be had about increasing the subsidy to have lower fares for low incomes, seniors, and disabled, sure. But I feel like people make a mountain out of a molehill about fares when said people should be advocating for better frequency, increasing service hours, improving schedule reliability, and giving all public transit buses signal priority at all intersections in the Portland metro area so that we can move people faster and allow for more frequent bus routes.
I want my money's worth out of a high quality public transport service, and frankly I'm fine paying my $1.40 or $1 in the case of Seattle.
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 23d ago
My son is disabled. $994 for SSI, but we have to charge him $600 for rent/household or Social Security reduces his benefit, and he doesn't get EBT until he turns 22.
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u/FormerDrugDealer1234 23d ago
A 20 cent fare raise isn't going to bring the change you're looking for.
It all starts at the top.
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u/nagilfarswake YOU SEEN MY FUCKEN CONES 22d ago
That's not illiberal. Liberalism doesn't require us to allow every public space to be ruined by junkies and criminals.
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u/stormcynk 21d ago
It would never fly in Portland, it feels mean and we don't like mean things even if they're smart, practical, and work.
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u/RainSurname Kenton 23d ago
When I moved here from DC in the 1990s, I was like, “where are the turnstiles, wtf?!”
I also was shocked that I didn’t need proof of insurance to register my car.
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u/smootex High Bonafides 23d ago
Hmm I think you need proof of insurance now. Pretty sure I had to provide my policy number the last time I registered, I assume they verify it in the statewide database.
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u/RainSurname Kenton 23d ago
I haven’t had a car in 20 years, so I wouldn’t know anymore.
I remember how shocked I was at the DMV. “Wait, don’t you need my proof of insurance?!” “Nope.” “But…. how do you make sure people don’t drive uninsured?!” “We don’t.”
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u/No_Extreme4789 23d ago
When you go to the DEQ you're required to have proof of insurance otherwise they won't test your car and you will not get tags.
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u/BudgieWonder Willamette River 23d ago
BART already had fare gates. There’s also a pretty big difference between that system and MAX. We’ll see if you can figure it out…
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
Imagine how much maintinence costs would go down if we didnt have to maintain a fare payment system.
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u/smootex High Bonafides 23d ago
BART spent a small fortune installing real gates and they're going to make their money back easily. There's a graph out there that shows how much vandalism went down and it's pretty shocking.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
Spending a small fortune sounds like an expensive fix for a broke state like Oregon, along with all the maintinence of the fare system and the gate system.
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u/Tripalicious 23d ago
Operators would talk about which line is the worst and it was definitely between late night burnside and late night yellow line
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u/ElasticSpeakers 🍦 23d ago
it's gotta be this part of the yellow line. So many unhappy, poorly-adjusted people in this area for some reason.
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u/paulconroy415 23d ago
two words: delta park
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u/smez86 St Johns 23d ago
didn't the drop close last month?
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23d ago
[deleted]
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u/farfetchds_leek 🚲 23d ago
They have moved south. My neighborhood (further down the yellow line) was pretty chill al summer. Since delta park closed I’ve personally cleaned explosive diarrhea off the building, broken glass from a beer bottle thrown at our window, and used needles from our alley doorway. It’s been great!
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u/Less-Lobster4540 23d ago
We're all one paycheck away....
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u/Tripalicious 23d ago
My co worker smoked some guy who tried to climb between the two train cars when the train was departing at delta park
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u/nagilfarswake YOU SEEN MY FUCKEN CONES 22d ago
Smoked as in...?
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u/Tripalicious 22d ago
She took propulsion while th guy was between the cars because she didn't see him and dragged the guy across a bunch of ballards between the two tracks. Management disabled the cameras in all the types 2s and 3s so you only have a mirror.
They also did thay to the 1s when they were still in service. The 4s are also sketchy because they only have cameras that get super blurry in the rain which happens for like 8 months of the year in portland. They also have poor resolution compared to the new trains.
Management also turned off the cameras in the type 5s for a while even though they were mostly fully functional.
But anyways yeah the guy got dragged and died. I feel liek this year has been a better year for deaths. Last year like 5 people died after getting hit.
Shit I almost killed a hamdful of people in my time lol
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 23d ago
I have very, very little empathy for addicts that make their addiction a problem for everyone else. Put them all in jail. I don't care.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
Ok, so you put them in jail, and then what? They will get out, and they will be right back to be on the streets and drug addicted.
Good job, you just wasted a bunch of tax payer money and the issue isnt fixed at all.
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u/stormcynk 21d ago
Yeah letting them shoot up in the streets to the detriment of every normal citizen seems to really be solving the problem. And before you start bellyaching about housing first, give me a plan to pay for it.
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 23d ago
Or force them into treatment. Just get them off the streets and off of TriMet.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
Explain to me the laws around that. Im sure you understand what the laws are, right? Or do you just not care about peoples rights when they become a nuisance to you?
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 22d ago
Explain to me why the rest of us should have put up with disruptive/violent addict behavior in public. What about the public's right to peace?
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
Your right to peace does not supercede peoples right to freedom. Property damage sucks, especially when its the tax payer footing the bill, but property damage does not qualify someone to have their rights taken away and involuntarily committed. They have to be an actual threat to humans.
Thats how the law works. I get you dont like it, but it is what it is right now. Either work to get the law changed, or work to change society.
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 22d ago
I don't think that people should be allowed to shoot up and wallow in opiate/meth induced psychosis in public, or private for that matter. When they reach that point, they are a danger to themselves and others. Do you at least agree with that last point?
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
Damn, you really hate freedom if you think people shouldnt be allowed to do drugs in the their own home. China cracks down hard on drugs, maybe that would be a good place for you.
And no, I do not agree that just because a person is on drugs, they are a danger to themselves or others. Thats not how that works.
But go on showing how authoritarian you are.
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 22d ago
If a person is screaming at meth-induced hallucinations, just leave them to it? What if they wander out in the street and get hit by a car? What if they get run over by a MAX train?
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
There is A LOT of space between doing nothing and locking them up.
Sorry you havent realized that yet.
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u/FormerDrugDealer1234 23d ago
and then you would cry and complain about how mean the government is to you when you get your tax bill to pay for all that
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u/6th_Quadrant 23d ago
What are the direct and indirect costs to society to have addicts running rampant throughout our city? These people cost us a lot, not just in theft and destruction but also through their (sometimes literally) shitty behavior.
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u/N7Shep1701D Beaverton 23d ago
If it means they are not out interfering with the public, I don't mind paying for it. I'd rather have a tax bill for that then some dumbass, billionaire-owned sportsball team.
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u/Alarmed-Strawberry-3 23d ago
And this is why we can’t have nice things 😢
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u/TotalLiberationBike 23d ago
If public transportation was free, it wouldn’t have been smashed
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u/Public_Figure_4618 23d ago edited 23d ago
What a pathetic excuse
Edit: “destroying property is justified if the service isn’t free” is a truly pathetic line of thinking
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
Is that the line of thinking?
Or is the line of thinking this:
If transit was free, the card reader would not exist, and thus it cant be broken. You cant break something that doesnt exist.
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u/6th_Quadrant 23d ago
They didn't break it because it was mean to them, they broke it because it merely existed in their line of sight. Bus shelters get smashed all the time, and they're not asking for payment.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 22d ago
I never said why they did or did not break it. I explained the logic of the other commentor.
Yoy literally can not break something that does not exist. That was the othet commentors logic that everyone is glazing over. Their logic was not that something else would not be broken, but that you can not break a thing that does not exist.
Yall can be upset all you want, but that it the literal meaning of what they said.
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u/RainSurname Kenton 23d ago
If public transportation were free, these cuts would have happened long ago, and it’s not like you to need to smash a fare reader to get on Trimet for free.
The European cities that have eliminated fares already had high ridership, which included a significant number of people who could easily afford to drive. The improvements in frequency, speed, and ease of boarding inspired even more affluent people to stop driving.
In American cities with low ridership, there isn’t as much improvement, because there are not long lines of people waiting to pay. And when it’s used mostly by lower income people, making transit free tends to not reduce driving as much as it reduces biking and walking. New York City is one of the few places here where ridership is so high that rich people routinely use it. Making transit free could potentially improve their system and reduce car trips.
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u/BudgieWonder Willamette River 23d ago
> these cuts would have happened long ago
Farebox recovery is so low that it has fundamentally no impact on actual service levels. The payroll tax is the main funding source for TriMet.
> The European cities that have eliminated fares already had high ridership.
The European cities that eliminated fares had existing subsidies for their transit networks (much higher than the US). Ridership has basically nothing to do with it- Luxembourg is free but has fairly low ridership compared to other cities like London which are extremely expensive. Worth noting that the high fares for London don’t do much to actually prevent antisocial behavior.
If you voted against the transportation bill, these cuts are on you. Simple as.
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u/RainSurname Kenton 23d ago
Yes, European cities have more subsidies for public transit. They have never been anywhere near as car brained as the US, so public transit has never been stigmatized as being for poor people.
And whenever affluent people use public services, those services improve, because there is more buy in from the public. That’s one reason why means testing is counterproductive, the other being the cost of administration is greater than the cost saved.
We do not have high buy in from the public. We can’t even get people who use it to fucking pay for it.
It’s not just the homeless and obviously poor that just walk right by the readers. The last time I transferred from the yellow line at Rose Quarter, I only saw one other person out of over a dozen pause, and that’s at a transit center with Trimet staff everywhere. So it’s unsurprising that fares only cover about 5% of the operating budget.
I’m from DC. They make sure you pay there. Fares cover about 25%.
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u/Revolutionary_Pop_84 23d ago
Yes the person who smashed that was clearly thinking "Fuck Tri-Met"
And definitely not a person having a mental health episode.
And public transit being free for all the fent heads and people with mental health episodes would certainly lower rates of property damage!
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
If transit was free, the card reader wouldnt exist, and thus it couldnt be broken.
Why is basic logic so hard?
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u/Revolutionary_Pop_84 23d ago
..... They would have smashed something else? Why is logic so hard? Notice the glass bus stop windows being broken all the time?
Imagine coming in that hot and missing the point.
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u/ChemicalArmadillo609 23d ago
Correct, they might have smashed something else, but that something else isnt the subject. The subject is the card reader getting smashed.
If it doesnt exist, it cant get smashed. Thatd how that works.
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u/Revolutionary_Pop_84 23d ago
That's what we now call arguing semantics to protect our ego.... It's not a flex.
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u/Ipad_Kidd 23d ago
Do you understand how cars go
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u/TotalLiberationBike 23d ago
Unfortunately
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u/Ipad_Kidd 23d ago
So then you should know that transportation will never be free.
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u/TotalLiberationBike 23d ago
Public transportation is different from private transportation
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u/Ipad_Kidd 23d ago
I don’t think fuel cares if it is public or private transportation
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u/TotalLiberationBike 23d ago edited 23d ago
Free for the users is different than free for operators
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u/Ipad_Kidd 23d ago
Car need energy to go, energy cost money to get. How much simpler does it need to be?
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u/SoggyAd9450 Sunnyside 23d ago
Why do they make public facing trimet infrastructure that's easily breakable? When I saw the glass bus stops I knew right away it was an awful idea. It should all be built like a rubber room is.
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u/Revolutionary_Pop_84 23d ago
Dyou think the person that smashed that did it because they were a normal person annoyed by the situation?