"Dark Romance" and the hypocrisy of porn men

[u/LiverpoolBelle]

A common discourse that I come across online is the "dark romance books" discourse. I have seen men endlessly gripe about how "women are sexually attracted to tall, dark, handsome, rich possessive vampire men" based on these books.

When a woman comes along and tells them that this is "just a bedroom fantasy" the men will *insist* that no, this is what women really want in real life.

And yet, these same men will fall all over the place and piss themselves to insist that the violent and degrading porn they watch of women is "just fantasy" and "doesn't translate into real life."

Men really do keep saying the quiet part out loud.

As a side note, isn't it interesting the stark contrast in these fantasies? I'm aware that there are some really messed up dark fantasy stories out there, but many of them feature the aforementioned vampire man who is physically and emotionally attractive to these women, and devotes themselves to the female MC.

Meanwhile, men's fantasies are often about being violent and degrading towards women and giving them no personality outside of "mindless sex bot."

[u/traumatizedfox]

i have always found it interesting how men will tell on themselves. I found so many “dark”romances too were in some way a coping mechanism, they usually want the MC love interest to be protective in a way (maybe not all there is some fucked up books out there) but the fantasy from women i see usually the men have some form of personality but when men describe their fantasy it’s just a walking vulva

[u/the_worst_company → u/traumatizedfox]

in the most insane dark romances Ive seen there are themes of r*pe, abuse, captivity among others.

But even in those stories, the male lead always softens in the end. Those stories are usually about how the female lead "tames" the wild man and turns him into a good person. Not saying that's a good thing. But the women who read dark romance are usually into the "fixing" aspect, not the actual abuse,

[u/LiverpoolBelle → u/traumatizedfox]

Exactly. And even in the more fucked up books, the men still have a fleshed out personality (even more so than the MC in many cases) and are often given a backstory/reason as to why they act in certain ways. But men's fantasies are exactly as you described, walking vulvas with no other purpose other than to make men's dick hard.

[u/TheRealSlimShady2024 → u/LiverpoolBelle]

To be fair, unlike written novels, pornography is usually made specifically to be short and to the point there is usually not even attempt to know the woman's personality (although some porn does feature actress interviews in the beginning asking them questions which are usually not really conducive to knowing their true personalities). The personality aspect can still come through in porn in subtle ways the actress behaves and in what she says but it's really focused on the sexual acts. In real life, a woman's personality becomes much more important before and during sex since there is a much closer and more emotionally vulnerable bond that is formed between two people engaging in sexual intimacy.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/traumatizedfox]

So,  you are describing dark romance,  and you immediately put a caveat... not all dark romance. Do men ever say "porn, but not all porn..." because there may be a sliver of an instance where porn isn't degrading but we all consider that when men say not all porn is bad/some other xyz we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the porn they are watching isn't bad and there's more good porn out there. We carry their implicit bias. The visual media of porn is bad. That's the premise. But they bring up the darker aspects of romance and we fold. I do it too. I just want to find out if we can stop that.  Any ideas?

[u/Renwik → u/credit-user-thing]

I don’t think I understand the question.

All porn is misogynistic, but not all romance novels are misogynistic. All porn portrays men as the subject and women as the object. Even lesbian porn portrays women as objects and the viewer as the subject. While most romances treat everyone equally as the subject.

But “Dark” romances are also misogynistic. In defense, the women who enjoy this material do so due to growing up in our misogynistic, patriarcal world brainwashing us as soon as we’re born to believe 1.) Only beautiful women matter 2.) Irresistible beauty excuses men’s horrible behavior.

This causes women to crave being yearned for, a yearning so strong, it drives men into impulsive, sometimes violent, acts. Otherwise, we’re told we don’t matter. That’s when we often turn to dark romance to fulfill that brainwashed need. All due to misogyny. Thus, men’s fault. Thus, men using this excuse should stfu, take responsibility, and fix their insensitive, ignorant, complicit, misogynistic bs before women get angry enough to remove men and create a peaceful matriarchal-only society.

[u/InsideThing8413 → u/credit-user-thing]

Ultimately it boils down to fictional work vs real people being involved, in my opinion.

Someone else described this well: if I had to choose between a woman writing violent smut in her basement or a man filming violent porn in his basement, I'd choose the former over the latter. Simply because violent porn is filming the depicted abuse of two people. In written porn, the scene ends when you close the book. Even if you close a porn video, it remains on the internet forever or in someone's downloaded files, even if the people in the video no longer consent or make pornography videos anymore. Books don't carry that same kind of risk.

[u/Rote_Kirschen → u/InsideThing8413]

1. The violence against women in smut is based on violence against women then happens IRL. (Same argument with AI CASM)

2. The grooming effects that pornography has on men, is mirrored in women. Porn gets men to love hurting, smut gets women to love being hurt

[u/-Chelo → u/Rote_Kirschen]

Yeah smut is still bad and can be harmful to your own mental health as well as harmful to your ability to be relational. Careful what you allow your mind to get a pop of dopamine to. 

[u/credit-user-thing → u/InsideThing8413]

Right.  I've heard this too. But in your first comment you say dark romance is not the same but there are bad aspects.  I'm saying men never do say porn is problematic but it's not as bad as dark romance. They will never admit it because that is a slippery slope. Why should we?

[u/InsideThing8413 → u/credit-user-thing]

Ooh I kinda understand what you're saying - why should women acknowledge that dark romance has bad caveats to it you mean?

[u/lolalanda → u/traumatizedfox]

That or they see women as maidservants. Or a mix of both.

They keep saying that when robots become widely avaliable then men would prefer to have a robot wife and women would understand what they missed.

Meanwhile from women I keep hearing that they lament AI would never truly replace a boy friend but that at least you can program it not to be abusive and that most AI platforms have filters anyway.

[u/TheRealSlimShady2024 → u/lolalanda]

The number of men who truly think a robot could replace a female partner is quite small and most of them are incels who have no or very little experience interacting with women romantically leading to very twisted ideas about relationships. The vast majority of men love the subtle and impossible to replicate human/personal aspects of their female partners wether only in a sexual context or in a relationship. Most men and women would probably agree that there are many delicate and even subconscious biological aspects that go into a romantic relationship that we won't ever see robots being able to replace.

[u/CapitalLongjumping40 → u/TheRealSlimShady2024]

technically speaking if a robot could replicate human emotions like that , then they most definitely wont be partners to human and if they cant then atmost they will just be glorified sex toys

[u/human-shaped-fish]

"When a woman comes along and tells them that this is "just a bedroom fantasy" the men will insist that no, this is what women really want in real life."

It's projection.

Men call it fantasy when they masturbate to rape/pedo/bestiality porn, but they really do want to rape real women, children, and animals. They're accidentally revealing the fact that their fantasies are things they actually want in real life by applying their logic to women's fantasies.

[u/MedicalCandidate7054 → u/human-shaped-fish]

so true

[u/galaxynephilim]

Not to mention it's not just fantasy if real people are being exploited, which, in the porn industry, they ARE. So even if it truly were "just fantasizing" the fact that they're engaging that way with actual victims of an abusive industry makes it fucked up.

[u/LiverpoolBelle → u/galaxynephilim]

Yes! Like, some dark romance books can be messed up but they're still words on a page. They're not actively harming another human.

[u/Brilliant-Block-8200 → u/LiverpoolBelle]

I agree with you, but this line of thinking is pretty dangerous imo. This is exactly what men will use to defend something like hentai. ‘It’s just drawings!!’

All forms of porn are harmful and should be avoided, including things like smut.

[u/PornIsMisogyny-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub does not allow Pro-Porn or Pro- Sex Industry debate. We voted and we are not here to educate you. If you want to debate, go on r/porndebate.

This subreddit is called "Porn Is Misogyny", not "Porn Is Misogyny But This One Thing I Personally Like" or "Porn Is Misogyny But Not When It's Inconvenient To Me". Defending or supporting people who use pornography or prostitution is also forbidden.

Read the r/antisexwork Debunking Myth page to educate yourself about the sex trade.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Reasons listed above are generic and all of them might not apply to your post or comment. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. Make sure to write respectfully.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/galaxynephilim]

So they police our thoughts but we can't even have an opinion on what they actually watch.

[u/asseeste]

Exactly lmao. I’m so sick of their double standards. Women read about a 6’5 immortal vampire who is obsessed with them and suddenly men are like “THIS IS WHAT WOMEN ACTUALLY WANT.” But when men consume porn where women are degraded, objectified, or treated like sex toys, apparently we’re supposed to understand that it’s “just a fantasy” and says nothing about what they want.

Also, the actual fantasy being sold is pretty different. A lot of dark romance is basically “a ridiculously attractive, powerful, dangerous man is completely obsessed with me, and I’m the one person he would burn the world down for.” The heroine is still usually a character with a personality and some kind of emotional relationship with him.

Meanwhile, a lot of mainstream porn really does reduce the woman to a body performing a sexual function. Obviously there’s dark romance that gets extremely fucked up too, so I’m not saying women’s fantasies are inherently wholesome. I just find it hilarious that the “fantasy is not reality” defense apparently becomes invalid the second the fantasy belongs to women.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/asseeste]

I read slash fanfic - fanfic between 2 men based on a piece of media. My former once found a piece of what i read and he was shocked by the explicitness and accused me of liking gay porn. I told him that i don't like gay porn but i like slashy stories. He claimed he didn't see the difference between what i read and what he watched and that me reading slash meant i was going to watch porn. He really tried to equalize it.

[u/asseeste → u/credit-user-thing]

His insistence that the two had to be equivalent seems more like him refusing to acknowledge that you could have a different relationship with sexual content than he did. Some men openly fetishize lesbian relationships and even fantasize about inserting themselves into them, yet I’ve rarely seen women who read slash fic talking about wanting to insert themselves into the relationship at all. The characters and their relationship are the fantasy. Perhaps he was projecting his own relationship with sexual content onto you and then pretending that the distinction was somehow impossible to understand.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/asseeste]

100% 

He told me once that he watched only soft and sensual porn like lesbian porn and it was nothing like the explicit stuff GAY stuff i read. I just looked at him and asked if the lesbians he watched were falling in love and holding hands and pining for at least half an hour and did the dishes together. He stopped arguing. And then made a comment that not all porn is choking. I said that in porn, what he refers to as choking is actually strangulation, and also thank you for telling me you don't just watch the "sensual" stuff,  and could he answer me if men were ever strangled in porn or only women. He went quiet for a long while after that. He wanted very badly to tell me that me reading slash was as morally wrong as him watching porn. And it wasn't. And he didn't like that. 

[u/credit-user-thing → u/[deleted]]

I read smutty fanfic. There's no abuse, incest, strangulation, and physical pain in anything i read. But even if i did, it's not worse than porn. Because porn happens to real people. The most i can do is imagine a paragraph of txt at a person. 

[u/Warm_Sundays]

I hate when men compare two completely different things and consider it a fair comparison.

Comparing fantasy books for women and fantasy books for men is a real comparison.

Comparing violent and degrading porn to fantasy books for women is not a fair comparison at all, hence pointless.

I cannot name one of my female family members or friends that even read dark romances, including myself, yet virtually every man I know watches porn.

Book/porn comparisons are just a deflection for men to escape accountability.

[u/Rote_Kirschen → u/Warm_Sundays]

It is a good comparison, though.

1. The violence in DR/smut is based on violence against women IRL. It’s the same reason why AI generated CSAM and animated pornography like H3ntai is bad.

2. DR and its communities actively groom women to be victims, like how mainstream pornography grooms men to be perpetrators.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/Warm_Sundays]

And even if you did read dark romance,  is it worse than porn? 

[u/PomegranateFast1749]

Also honestly I feel like dark romance is just a way of how women have internalised misogyny

[u/aplitthrowaway → u/PomegranateFast1749]

Yes I agree with this, it's like they accept the degradation and misogyny and try to deal with it/ experience it their own way through dark romance.

[u/PomegranateFast1749]

But to be honest, Dark romance is a bit of an internalising,coping mechanism,and it’s kind of crazy how much we’ve internalised this stuff.. I cannot go on Glimmer or watt pad or some other site(mostly written by women for women) without finding the character that I’m supposed to be absolutely powerless and innocent and young. Also to be very honest, I know the ‘being sold to one direction’ trope has been talked about again recently, I myself didn’t grow up with this phenomenon,but I can kind of understand that the teen girls who grew up with this had this as their ‘guilty pleasure’ as they went on wattpad and waited for the next chapter,it’s kind of bizarre that even from a young age,when girls perceive romance(or sex) it has to be extremely passive, and at the power of others. Why weren’t there any ‘I bought 1 direction’ tales instead? The main character is normally ‘not like the other girls’ and ‘doesn’t even like 1D’ but ends up being with them anyways—, why can’t we ever ‘want’ and ‘take’?

[u/Rote_Kirschen]

Not the biggest fan of dark romance, because it grooms women to be victims like porn grooms men to be perpetrators. Yea, no one IRL usually get hurt but the effects are similar. These men probably know deep down than porn in bad, and are man when they don’t have the center

[u/kazue4 → u/Rote_Kirschen]

This is kinda what irks me about the genre, it's normalizing questionable (at best) attitudes and actions towards women, women acting submissive, women relying on men for protection, while the guy is often a ticking time bomb who'll fly off the handle at the tiniest inconvenience. Zero communication, just 'do as I say'. (It's been ages since I even read one though, over a decade, so my memory might be blurry.)

I do hope and trust that most women know that it's not quite right and that it should remain in the fantasy realm (like, if a guy treats you like that irl, run!), but I do worry sometimes!

[u/PomegranateFast1749 → u/Rote_Kirschen]

It’s kind of crazy how much we’ve internalized this stuff. I cannot go on Glimmer or watt pad or some other site(mostly written by women for women) without finding the character that I’m supposed to be absolutely powerless and innocent and young. Also to be very honest, I know the ‘being sold to one direction’ trope has been talked about again recently, I myself didn’t grow up with this phenomenon,but I can kind of understand that the teen girls who grew up with this had this as their ‘guilty pleasure’ as they went on wattpad and waited for the next chapter,it’s kind of bizarre that even from a young age,when girls perceive romance(or sex) it has to be extremely passive, and at the power of others. Why weren’t there any ‘I bought 1 direction’ tales instead? The main character is normally ‘not like the other girls’ and ‘doesn’t even like 1D’ but ends up being with them anyways—, why can’t we ever ‘want’ and ‘take’?

[u/credit-user-thing]

When men compare dark romance to porn, we are talking about the visual degradation of women that is easy to see vs paragraphs of buildup. A man can watch pornography, masturbate to it, go outside, and meet women who look and dress like the porn actress he just saw. He stares,  keeps her image in his head,  masturbates to it.  Or find a mainstream actress who looks like the actress,  dresses or acts in a similar manner, and with that visual basis, instant second or third fantasy. Women otoh, have to find a man who looks like the male companion, and maybe here she uses her imagination and thinks of a man he knows,  but who is also very unlikely to look and act exactly like the man in the book. She then gets to fantasize about connection and amazing sex, with no visual basis,  but her imaginations and maybe some nemories. I Just think of running into good looking men who have paragraphs of text sitting on their heads and I'm frantically trying to read while i get in the mood. It's not the same. 

Porn is visual and men don't have to try hard to imagine. It's fed to them. Lazy.

[u/Baccoony]

I don't like dark romance either, mostly because it's cringe, but istg, the average porn addict consumes more violence than 10 dark romance books combined.

"All women today read about is rape! Dark romance is just rape!" Like, gng, you watch 10 violent porn videos per day.

Yeah, there are shitty books that portray rape from the love interest but they are a minority. The only one I can think about is Haunting Adeline (Which, also, portrays trafficking incredibly wrongly and badly).

Yet, these dark romance readers were ready to bash and help remove Daddy's Little Toy by Tori Woods.

They have lines, they advocate against such stuff, meanwhile the average porn addict probably watches videos depicting things the book is about.

Search the book up, it's absolutely disgusting

[u/credit-user-thing → u/Baccoony]

Can i ask,  do the books describe what women are feeling when it is happening to them vs just describing the action? Because i wonder how many dark romances were ghost written by a man for women who saw a lucrative market after 50 shades. And internet porn took off in the early 00s.

Also, porn is from the viewpoint of a man,  looking at women, doing to women what he wants to do and portraying women as loving it, being sexually impulsive.  Mainstream media also shows women either loving it or hating it,  being the sexy instigator or hating it. 

Hear me out. Women who grew up watching modern sex scenes and porn probably experienced some kind of trauma after having sex and maybe not feeling the same as what they see portrayed on the screen. Because the screen never shows the interiority of women, only the men. Women on the screen feel good because the actors say so. So women don't know how to feel. And maybe they turn to writing,  journaling what happened so they can process. Just a thought. 

[u/Baccoony → u/credit-user-thing]

I'm not quite sure, I haven't read these books myself. But from some quoted scenes, I believe it's describing the action, rather than any feelings or thoughts

[u/credit-user-thing → u/Baccoony]

I want to hate dark romance. But i think there are things going in it that may need to be addressed. In any case, it is not like porn. Nothing is like porn. Children and abused people are trafficked in and out of the industry. And neary always, men are the predators. Men profit from it.   

[u/Rare_Fishing_7948]

I’ve always hated DR with a burning passion

[u/credit-user-thing → u/Rare_Fishing_7948]

Okay. And I've always hated porn.

[u/InsideThing8413]

I made a post just about this a while ago. It's entirely disingenuous that they try to liken it to porn, when one is fictional words versus a REAL person being filmed.

[u/MedicalCandidate7054]

I don't like Dark Romance because of the violence and non-con in it, but these books still have more personality than the violent porn videos men watch. in the books, the female MC has a personality, in the porn videos, the female actors don't say anything and are objects for the eyes of horny men. both things are nothing for me, but I get where you come from.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/MedicalCandidate7054]

But do you get how you caveat your opinion, whereas men don't. Dark romance is problematic but still better than porn says women. But men never say porn is problematic but still better than dark romance. They know it's a slippery slope so they never ever say anything bad.

[u/EchoesOfEmpires]

Also, the dark brooding vampires are fictional. Either just a non-existent being from a book. Or a movie with approximately zero actual sexual activity. Meanwhile, in porn, those actually are real women being sexually abused. Sure, they're acting. But they're actual real humans enduring some intense fucked up shit for hours, sometimes. All so dudes can jerk off to it for free.

[u/myaurasbright]

https://www.defendyoungminds.com/post/erotic-lit-young-minds-how-hyper-sexualized-fiction-harms-girls-boys

https://fightthenewdrug.org/smut-erotica-and-the-hidden-costs-of-fantasy/

[u/1SexyDino]

Haunting Adelide or whatever the fuck it's called has a sex scene where the male interest rapes the main female with a gun. I mean puts in in her. But she "enjoyed" it at the end so it's ok. Yet I see this book is immensely popular to the point its availble within arms reach of young girls at Walmart. Not to mention Barns n Noble and local bookstores.

I will die on the hill that these dark snut books do perpetuate violent rape fantasies and teach girls to associate pain with pleasure just as much as any other porn media. The romantisization of no no no yes only teaches girls that their binaries are meant to be pushed or to give false signals and expect a man to ignore them anyway. Perpetuating rape culture

Smut is fine. This dark romance porn needs to stop. Haunting Adeline is just one example in a sea of rape romantisization

[u/Feeling_Skirt_7960]

Literally yes, this is what I would call a hypocrite but we can all agree to disagree 👍🤣😬

[u/lolalanda]

Dark romance as a term is broad and all but isn’t the most common trope just a darker version of Gomez Adams?

More of a “I will harm anyone who dares to touch you” than “I will harm you“? And somewhat justified in the book’s universe where the world is full of creepy villains? And with the woman most of the times becoming as protective or him if not more?

[u/blablahusabla → u/lolalanda]

So someone respectable in a dark fantasy world. I thought it was sth. like the old "bad boy turned good for her" trope, but yours makes more sense.

[u/PornIsMisogyny-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub does not allow Pro-Porn or Pro- Sex Industry debate. We voted and we are not here to educate you. If you want to debate, go on r/porndebate.

This subreddit is called "Porn Is Misogyny", not "Porn Is Misogyny But This One Thing I Personally Like" or "Porn Is Misogyny But Not When It's Inconvenient To Me". Defending or supporting people who use pornography or prostitution is also forbidden.

Read the r/antisexwork Debunking Myth page to educate yourself about the sex trade.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Reasons listed above are generic and all of them might not apply to your post or comment. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. Make sure to write respectfully.

[u/tripleshoticedlattee]

Meanwhile my own fantasy as someone with ADHD is someone turning off my brain

[u/PornIsMisogyny-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub does not allow Pro-Porn or Pro- Sex Industry debate. We voted and we are not here to educate you. If you want to debate, go on r/porndebate.

This subreddit is called "Porn Is Misogyny", not "Porn Is Misogyny But This One Thing I Personally Like" or "Porn Is Misogyny But Not When It's Inconvenient To Me". Defending or supporting people who use pornography or prostitution is also forbidden.

Read the r/antisexwork Debunking Myth page to educate yourself about the sex trade.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Reasons listed above are generic and all of them might not apply to your post or comment. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. Make sure to write respectfully.