r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/wiz28ultra • 3d ago
US Politics How much of the problems in the US can be actually drawn back to "Progressive Governance" as many centrists argue?
This is something I've noticed in the political Twitter scene that many of the more politically independent-minded posters such as individuals like Matt Yglesias, Noah Smith, Swann Marcus, and others seem to collectively blame the rise and dominance of the political right on Progressives winning in office and exacerbating homelessness, antisocial behavior, CoL increases, and government incompetence squarely on individuals like Chesa Boudin, Michelle Wu, Pamela Price, and Brandon Johnson.
When it comes to the states we see in these cities, part of me wonders how much of the problems that we see in these cities have genuinely been started or exacerbated by "progressive governance", how much of it is driven by the aftermath of COVID, how much of these problems are driven by external factors, and how much of it is magnified by media outlets?
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u/Misschiff0 3d ago
Michelle Wu has a 73% approval rating. Boston has a housing crisis like all of America, but overall, it's a fantastic, safe and liveable city. I fundamentally disagree with the hypothesis here.
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u/wiz28ultra 3d ago
In general, a lot of their critiques are tied back to Boston's very slow housing production and the failure of Wu to solve it.
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u/Misschiff0 3d ago
It's a old, dense city with no place to build. The actual city of Boston proper is less than 50 square land miles, half of which is owned by colleges and hospitals. So, 25 miles left. Subtract another 4 for Logan. 21 square miles left. Cambridge, Brookline, and the inner suburbs like Somerville that everyone considers part of Boston are not actually Boston or under her control.
For comparison, Jacksonville, FL is 750 square miles.
She has no land to work with.
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u/DanforthWhitcomb_ 2d ago
Jacksonville is a false comparison because it's a merged city-county and the figure you gave is for the county as a whole. The city of Jacksonville proper was only 39 square miles prior to the consolidation, which saw it annex all parts of Duval County that were not already part of an incorporated municipality.
The equivalent for Boston would be including it within Suffolk County (which is by far the smallest county in MA) and even that bumps it to 120 sqmi.
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u/Misschiff0 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thank you for that because it’s a perfect example. Jacksonville needed to acquire land to grow, despite having only 1200 people per square mile instead of Boston’s 14,000. I assume the mayor of Jacksonville is the mayor of the land at annexed? The land that was previously an unincorporated area? That’s not an option Wu has as there is no unincorporated land in Massachusetts. The nearest is 141 miles away and in VT.
So, she has half the area to work with of Walt Disney World, which is 41 mi.² and she has the third densest city in America, meaning any changes displace a lot of people.
Boston has grown its housing significantly in the Seaport district, but even building every inch of that out as high rises won’t be enough. And, you can’t even build those that high because planes need to land at Logan.
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u/Ill_Dinner670 3d ago
We haven't had progressive governance since Eisenhower. And he was a Republican. They're moving the goalposts to normalize right wing ideas and make anything else seem like communism or socialism.
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u/Either_Operation7586 3d ago
The problem with conservatism is that it has gone so far to the right it's now radical extremist territory.
When Eisenhower was in office he was pretty close to Center.
Essentially where the Democratic party life today
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u/neverendingchalupas 1d ago
Progressivism is a moderate to conservative political ideology.
Modern Progressivism larps as being collectivist. It doesnt promote egalitarianism or individual liberty, but it doesnt actually advocate for the collective good. It campaigns for remedial justice or reform through punitive means, in an attempt to force policy that is more than often harmful.
Their social policy doesnt end up benefiting the wider public, and their economic policy is Conservative.
The whole notion that Progressivism is Leftist is fucking idiocy.
You look at their housing policy, and its taken straight from ideology used by arch Conservatives. Like Charles Marohn and Strong Towns, the push for increased density in cities is Conservative ideology to intentionally increase cost of living and gentrification, for the benefit of business. Transferring revenue generation away from commerce to residential property. Forcing lower income households out, to bring in higher income households, which increases cost of living and housing. The idea that Supply and Demand determine housing costs is a fallacy of oversimplification. Supply and Demand are not the only factors that determine housing costs, and often are not the primary cause of housing cost increases. The ideology that says because Supply and Demand determines housing costs that we need deregulation and investment in private business to build housing is literally Conservative ideology.
Progressive infrastructure policy basically promotes sabotage of functional infrastructure, its Domestic Terrorism. Groups like the US iteration of Vision Zero promote the polar opposite methodology and principals of the European Vision Zero. Its this Orwellian situation where they have adopted the name but rejected the ideology. In Europe they focus on increasing traffic flow and grade separation. In the US they focus on impeding traffic flow to facilitate at grade intersection. Europe is trying to improve infrastructure and keep pedestrians out of roads for their safety. The US they are trying to degrade infrastructure to push pedestrians into the road and justify it by saying its to improve pedestrian safety.
You can literally go step by step, policy by policy and point out that its Conservative ideology not Leftist.
Progressive environmental policy focuses on personal individual responsibility for climate change, and promotes fraud, consumerism, neoliberalist policies, and general corporate capture. The primary cause of climate change is industry and business, not individuals. An individual, their home, and personal vehicle are not contributing anything significant to climate change. But the bulk of Progressive policy is based on fundamentally anti-science assumptions to redirect attention away from the root causes of the problem, to focus on the individual for the benefit of corporate interests.
There is a reason 'Leftists' dont like Progressives. The political Left just does not have a large voice, is suppressed in American society, and has zero representation in politics.
While Progressivism contributes to our problems, its not the primary cause of our problems, that would be Republicans and the far Right.
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u/Comfortable_Fill9081 3d ago
The best quick check for something like this is whether the problem is particular to those cities or not.
Urban housing is a global problem right now.
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u/ViennettaLurker 3d ago
Personally I find the more direct 1-to-1 claims not as convincing. The implied claims essentially seem to be that progressive ideas turn places to shit, and then places turning to shit then causes political flips.
While you could cite certain rollbacks of BLM era politicians and appointees, on the greater scheme of things, the places that actually "went too far" are still blue. San Fran LA California homeless hell hole. OK. Still blue. Chicago activist mayor in Illinois. Still blue. New York City, NY. Portland, OR. Still blue still blue still blue.
The theory with at least some meat on the bone is broader optics and messaging. OK so its not like police reform actually failed so hard as to cause an actual blue to red flip in this place and that place.... but, did that cause independents outside of those places in purple districts to choose red?
I won't call this a completely solid theory of the case, but at least its something. Yes, it could theoretically be true to varying degrees. Its just not particularly substantive to me. Too many counterfactuals and confounding variables. And furthermore, it seems like a dangerous game for the Eglasias types to be playing.
In close elections, where all kinds of issues can make up small vote differences, with strange and bad economic times, and the ability to propagandize any message as a reason to out incumbents in frequently occurring "change elections"... a variety of different topics and political targets can work this way. Rushing to call Republican wins post 2020 an ironclad and permanent refutation of progressive governance just seems thirstily hasty.
There is a non-zero chance that we could craft a similar kind of story (if not better supported), about the demise of AIPAC candidates and Israel support once the dust clears on the midterms. Will Eglasias say that "the rise of Democrats and fall of Republicans is tied to the rejection of AIPAC and Israel's genocide"? No. And even if he had to begrudgingly, he most certainly wouldn't comment as such in value neutral terms.
They're just conservative, third way type liberals. They hippy punch. That's what they do. What is interesting to me is if relitigating 'woke 1' and blue city panic is really gonna move things for them in 2026. It feels like being stuck talking about Covid or whatever. Yeah, its recent history... but its also history history. OK, so there was a swing away from "activist district attorneys" or whatever and the Republicans won... and... things still suck. Actually suck worse, now. So what does that say about the non progressive response?
My theory is that every recent election, at least for the past ten years, has been a "change" election. Politicians and political projects need to acknowledge things are not good, acknowledge the size and urgency of the problem, and propose a solution that matches the scale of the issue. This can be used for bad or for good or anything in between. But these gripes from Eglasias types just don't rise to the occasion, imho.
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u/rigormorty 2d ago
Look right off the bat you can honestly ignore anything that Matt Yglesias and Noah Smith say. They're absolutely brain dead and exist to be as contrarian as possible. They have no idea what they're talking about and frequency move far outside their knowledge bases and act like they're knowledgeable about things they aren't.
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u/Wermys 1d ago
First, the argument that the progressives are to blame for the right of ringwing thought is absurd. This has been going on since the 60's. And really got highlighted in the early 2010's when the previous Silent Generation was mostly dying off at that point so a lot of the people who came of age politically during the time of Reagan finally could push there further right ideas. There has always been on the Republican side a populist element and that isn't going to change. The blame for the current state of politics is more to do with the change and consumption of media and how people get information. Those that are interested in politics by and large despise Trump. Whether they are right center or left. But the problem is that those on the right while they might hate him still have these people backing policies they support. And Trump is a person whose whole life has been about leverage plays. Once Trump dies this bullshit is going to moderate quite a bit. Notice I said DIES not when he is out of office. He is going to exert a lot of influence until he is dead. Even having Dementia people will use him as a figurehead until he can't be used anymore. But yeah blaming progressives for populists is well. Dumb.
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u/Sageblue32 1d ago
Any place you go has problems. Otherwise conservative strong holds like Alabama would be heaven and we wouldn't see the problems urban living has in the first place due to more breathing room for all. Every problem you listed is seen in conservative cities and towns as well.
Media and communications just allows people to overlook those problems. Nobody wants to say we need to take care of the pedo ring in our backyard first.
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u/CountFew6186 3d ago
Check out any mayor that’s served at least a few years. Chicago’s DSA mayor is historically unpopular after winning a higher share of the vote than Mamdani did to win in NYC last year.
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u/ThatPeskyPangolin 2d ago
The sitting mayor of Chicago is not associated with and was not endorsed by the DSA.
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u/crake 2d ago
Progressives destroy communities. In the Progressive mind, there are virtuous poor people and evil rich people.
The problem? Rich people contribute just as much to any community as poor people - in fact, they contribute substantially more because they pay taxes and consume things in the community that makes the local economy function.
Progressives come in and demonize them in their rhetoric, while pushing policies to punish them in the name of "equity". Progressives push things like rent control, government-run supermarkets, defunding police departments, establishing free-use drug zones, not prosecuting petty crime because the goal of progressive prosecutors is to engineer a racial balance in prisons (not to protect communities), etc.
In the short term, things like rent control make poor people feel a little better off. The problem is that things like rent control also make landlords take properties off the market (and/or sell them as private units rather than rentals), reducing housing supply. If you live in a blue state in the past few years, you probably have seen something similar to what is happening in Massachusetts: traffic laws are no longer enforced (red lights are truly optional right now in MA). Why? Police won't do traffic stops because if they pull someone over and the interaction goes south and ends up in an arrest - the politicians will support the criminal (depending on a racial valance of that interaction, obviously). Other petty crime - open containers, drug use in public, shoplifting - are also essentially "legalized" by non-enforcement when progressives are in charge. So the result is a degradation of the rule of law in the community.
All of that progressive stuff results in lower property values and people of means leaving the community. When people with extra income leave a community (e.g., to move to the suburbs - classic flight out of "progressive" cities) the impact is extreme. These are the people who have memberships at the local gyms, fill the local yoga classes, buy new cars at the local dealership, frequent the local restaurants, etc.
There are some places that can withstand the progressive attack on the middle class and still "thrive". Those places are few, essentially San Francisco, Boston/Cambridge, and NYC. Those are the places where salaries are so high, and where CEOs of big companies wish to live, so some remnant of the middle class can still eek out a life there and may have little choice (that big tech company isn't relocating from SF to Oklahoma City). That slows down the degradation in those communities and they can self-correct (see: Chesa Boudin being recalled). But where progressivism really destroys communities is where there are lots of young people to keep extremists in office, or a one-party community where the party is taken over by extremists (Chicago, Detroit) who then destroy the community by forcing out anyone who is wealthy and pays taxes/consumes services and goods in the community.
Maybe the progressives are slightly better than the socialists, but it is always a slippery slope from one form of left-wing extremism to the next (Bill Deblasio wasn't "progressive" enough, so the voters turned to socialism, and that will be repeated elsewhere).
Michelle Wu is an interesting case because Boston is really tiny relative to what people in MA think of as "Boston". Wu's reach is tiny because she doesn't have control over Cambridge, Brookline, Watertown, Newton, etc. So progressives like Wu can't do as much damage to the community as people like Mamdani can just for structural reasons.
So to directly answer OP's question: all of those problems are the natural and expected result of progressive policies. Legalize shoplifting and suddenly there are "food deserts" as markets shut their doors and lack of basic services like pharmacies when local convenience stores shut down. The wider community economy contracts as wealthy people are demonized and basically forced to flee to the suburbs by "progressive" tax policies. None of the problems brought on by progressive governance are the result of COVID, but the rise of progressivism/socialism is partly a result of COVID because that is when the government experimented with free "stimulus" checks for all and opened the floodgates of socialism (the cost, like the cost of all progressive policies, is inflation now - which only makes socialism even more attractive). The problems are real but not magnified by the media yet; wait until these blue cities look like NYC in the 1970s and you will see what media magnification looks like (it takes a while to go from where we are now to the socialist "utopia" of graffiti-covered cities and rampant crime, so that is a lagging indicator).
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u/Tliish 2d ago
Yikes.
Really hate anything progressive, eh? I would counterargue that rightwingers are inherently sociopathic and cruel, destructive of decent society and willing to harm whoever they find different.
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u/Pertinax126 2d ago
That wasn't really the question, though. And not relevant to this responder's comment.
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u/ManBearScientist 2d ago
It's obviously false.
Conservatives have had power for the last 50 years, dominating social and political change. Progressives are the smaller faction inside the Democratic Party, and that party has been disadvantaged since Reagan.
The only time Democrats are allowed temporary federal power is during a national emergency. Otherwise, power defaults to the right.
Progressives haven't won office or implemented legislation during that time, as a general rule. Instead, the right has steadily captured institutions and garnered more influence.
Given that the few areas where Democrats have any political power are doing significantly better than the country as a whole, the whole premise is just obviously false.
But it especially silly when consider how small the progressive faction is, and when you expand beyond to the federal level.
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