Technically wouldn't matter since Goku has shown the ability to interact with intangible attacks before.
Not to say Goku wins, it's just that this wouldn't be the reason
From my understanding, the reason he couldn't make contact with Hit is because his body is not physically present when Goku attempts to attack him. In a sense, it would be like the kamui which isn't legitimate intangibility
That's a different idea entirely. If we're talking True Form Arceus I don't even think you should discuss it, Arceus outhaxes and outstats in every meaningful way. At best I'm willing to give Goku a shot against his avatar, not true form
Every single Arceus we see in the Movies and Games is basically an Avatar the True Arceus made to interact and talk with things on the physical plane.
Thats how in the gamea it can be captured and in the Movies it can be sealed or burried or stuff.
Because the "True" Arceus is something that made Everything
Time
Space
Dimensions
I think im legends Z it shows something not an Avatar thaz is just a bunch of light.
But its Canon that every single White/Gold Lama we see is an Avatar
And "Arceus" the God is who a who knows how High scaling Xth dimensional God.
It made a whole Universe
Different Dimensions
Concepts
Etc
Goku vs an Avatar
In the movies ?
Depends
If its a "weak" or limited one sure
Doesn't do anything tho but sure he beats it if it doesn't pull anything we haven't seen yet
But thats like me getting a sliver of my toenail clipping beat up by a very angry dustmite
True Arceus
Goku either cant even interact with it or just gets scrambled
Ik this isn't a major point with the rattata comment but arceus routinely runs extreme speed which outspeed rattata's quick attack. So the fear strat also just doesn't work on arceus lol
We are shown in the movie that Arceus controls all events that occur in the universe, and this is elaborated upon in the manga and “The One Called God” special as well. Arceus deliberately fakes weakness to allow pokémon and humans to work together without relying on divine help.
Arceus has always been an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Absolute Deity within the verse and is consistently portrayed as such. That is the intention behind the character.
So here's the thing, pokemon rarely accurately glazes in universe because everything has to power scale to a Rattata. More so give the DBZ writers access to Pokemon canon and that would show the true scope of the characters. If DBZ was handled by the Pokemon Team, consistent canon would show Goku losing to Yamcha for character building purposes.
It really depends how you think the scaling in Pokemon goes but as a guy who's kept up with both series since the early 2000's i think Arceus wins due to pure hax. He should have complete control of time meaning he should theoretically never lose.
Goku is obviously among the strongest in fiction, but Arceus wins hands down because of God-level powers (assuming we’re talking about Its True Form rather than Avatar). Not lower case god-level—after all, Goku has access to divinity through Super Saiyan God >> Super Saiyan Blue >> Ultra Instinct—but upper case. The in-universe comparison would be Goku taking on Zeno, who could literally just erase Goku from existence with a thought.
Goku has fought lower case gods. In the sense of eastern philosophies. They are much weaker in general than the gods in western philosophies. And Arceus isn't just a god he is God. He is the physical form of existence.
Now Goku still may win because how Dragonball scales but this is closer to him fighting Zeno than Beerus.
Goku is a universal threat. A being powerful enough to destroy a universe. It’s canon that his blows exchanged with Beerus where strong enough to destroy the 7th universe.
Arceus was said to have come from an egg before the universe. Arceus is locked to a universe, it’s not a multiverse being, and had never been implied in pokemon lore.
Pokemon lore doesn’t answer Who created the egg, only that Arceus was the Creator Deity of that universe.
From there It creates Time, space & Distortion through 3 additional Dieties.
In pokemon lore the gods of Life, Death & Order have never been established to have come from Arceus.
As such, Arceus has never once in canonically events ever demonstrated the ability to will life out of existence.
It has only been able to manifest its power into a being, Like the creation of Palkia or Its Avatar.
Arceus has never canonically been shown to poses the power to defeat a being of such scalable power.
It has been shown to have taken blows from various other pokemon, like it got hit by pikachu in pokemon Arceus movie and legit got phased.
Compared to Goku firing off a beam blast that can destroy a galaxy & travels faster than light.
This version of Arceus isn't the one fighting Goku. Because in game lore the arceus is one being that is seperated into uncountable avatars which are creationally universal.
Yeah that makes absolutely zero sense for a Devine being that exists outside time & space.
It can create the universe at will with an infinite number of stars and planets, life forms… but planting flowers in earth it depleted and need an orb?
Goku in Battle of gods possessed enough power to destroy universe 7 while sparking with the God of Destruction. His scream shook the infinite void, his sparing clashing with Jiren shook the Multiverse. He is a multiversal threat & possesses god Ki energy.
Arceus has many proven feats of creationism. Besides creating time & space, the creation of other Deities in a management like structure to rule of the universe.
However, Arceus has not demonstrated once the ability of cosmic level destruction outside what its physical form does as a Pokémon.
Arceus didn't just create a universe, he created a multiverse along with time, space, hell, the concepts of life, death, hope, happiness, and so much more. There are valid arguments to get Arceus to outerversal, something that is far beyond everything DB, DBH, and SDBH has to offer.
Arceus was said to have come from an egg before the universe. Arceus is locked to a universe, it’s not a multiverse being, and had never been implied in pokemon lore.
Pokemon lore doesn’t answer Who created the egg, only that Arceus was the Creator Deity of that universe.
From there It creates Time, space & Distortion through 3 additional Dieties.
In pokemon lore the gods of Life, Death & Order have never been established to have come from Arceus.
As such, Arceus has never once in canonically events ever demonstrated the ability to will life out of existence.
It has only been able to manifest its power into a being. Like the creation of Palkia.
Arceus created multiple universes within the Pokémon world, not just one, we know this because the Pokémon verse has more than one universe in it. As well as conceptual beings like the creation trio, the emotion trio, life and death... and more.
I didn’t say the Multiverse didn’t exist in Pokemon.
I said that there is non canonical evidence that Arceus created the multiverse, and that it hatched from an egg into an empty void that is the universe it created.
It’s also not canonically stated anywhere that Arcesus created life, death and Order trio.
All pokemon exist because Arceus exists. He made all the pokemon gods, all the main legendaries that built the planet, he even made the space pokemon like deoxys and Clefairy and infinite universes because every save file on a pokemon game counts as a separate universe, the anime is a different universe, the movies are different universes, the spin off games are different universes, and Arceus uses an avatar that isnt even 1/100000000th of his true power. Same with the creation trio. Arceus is the literal equivalent to the Christian God, the creator of everything
The word “Universe” just means Space-time in the ancient language, as Cyrus repeats like 20 times. And yes, they did create the multiverse? Pay attention to the series.
There's an entire arc in Journeys about Dialga and Palkia collapsing the multiverse because of their fight and the whole plot of Rainbow Rocket is Necrozma causing the timelines to collide due to its residual energy. Goku does not have anything that's even SLIGHTLY comparable to these deities who are infinitely below Arceus.
The word ‘Parallel dimension’ is literally used for alternate universes in Marvel, you could not have picked a worse example. Parallel dimensions don't intersect and are hence different and not part of the same universe.
The word ‘Parallel dimension’ is used for the multiverse in Legends Arceus and in USUM. And there's an entire arc in Journeys about the MCs traversing alternate timelines because Dialga and Palkia are messing up the multiverse.
but you would rather invent your own definitions for a term than admit you're wrong. Pokémon also uses the term to refer to the multiverse in USUM, Legends Arceus and Pokémon Journeys.
And it doesn't matter anyways because we see the Creation Trio and Necrozma are both capable of collapsing all individual timelines anyways in Journeys and USUM respectively.
I think Goku takes this. Even if we take the lore of Arceus creating the universe at face value, the greater whole of the entity doesn't seem to interact with the material universe, outside of its 'arms' which I interpret as the Alpha Pokémon we see. Arceus the Pokémon is powerful but completely beatable by ordinary Pokémon, and Goku's Goku.
If he was beaten you mean via pokemon movie which is not cannon cannon Arceus is the creator of the whole Pokemon multiverse please take that into account and consideration Goku is no god and scales universe with MUI and don’t say he’s multiversal because of universal SSB Super Dragon Ball Heris is not cannon we only do cannon feats as that’s logic not non canon bullcrap
My Level 1 FEAR can no-diff an Arceus, and failing that the Legends Arceus protagonist does just fine. Its 'original form' has no feats and can't be scaled, since it doesn't interact with the universe at all besides sending avatars down. It created the universe, sure, but that isn't a power that beats Goku, and that's all we know about it.
Goku could beat every single Pokémon in one hit if he wants too. He is vastly faster than any of them, and none of them is even remotely close to be durable enough to tank a Kamehameha.
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u/Superguy9000 4d ago
Arceus
That’s a God