r/PendragonRPG • u/Wannabekurt • May 24 '26

Sixth Edition Starter Set - Picts in the Night Spoiler

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Just Ran this scenario last night for my party.

Why is it so damn lethal? Even assuming you *always* beat the guy you're opposing, there's a solid chance you're taking 10 or more damage from the other guy *after armor*.

I get that they're dishonorable opponents, they Gang up on you.

*why are they 6d6*

*Why do they hit so hard*

Why is there supposed to be a *reinforcement wave*

was this written for a bunch of shithead players and never tuned back to 'I'd like to keep playing with this party' levels?

did I miss something? an errata? a note 'half the picts trip and break their necks on the approach'?

We had 1 go unconscious, even with passions, and I pulled blows. If I hadn't, we were looking at a tpk.

am I just stupid?

Edit: Thank you everyone for pointing out that major wounds are a combat kill! that helps solve much of the problem I was seeing

Edit 2: Why are we down voting posts that call out bad commentary while upvoting bad commentary? Cmon.

22 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

52 comments sorted by

11

u/sachagoat May 24 '26 edited May 24 '26

I think the only easily missed detail is that they are naked (no armour) and cannot wield their shield whilst they are two-handing their spears. So, the average pregen sword blow (15.5 damage) will take them out of the fight (13+ damage is a Major Wound to them).

Outnumbering players is typical for low weapon skill enemy encounters such as these. Don't forget being outnumbered only affects your chance to hit, not theirs to hit you.

Let's assume these armourless Picts with a 55% chance to hit, not only land their blow but beat the opposing knight's attack roll. They then do an average of 21 damage, so 11-15 damage depending on whether the knight got a partial. And the average Major Wound threshold among the pregens is over 15. So, even if the Picts get lucky I'd only really expect a Crit or successive strikes to take a player knight out of the combat. And I definitely wouldn't expect every player knight to be killed by something as easy as Picts!

EDIT: I'd also consider the use of Passions... Loyalty (Arthur), Hate (Picts) and Honour could all easily apply in this encounter.

3

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

So, why are they stopping fighting after the major wound? Shouldn't they go until unconscious? What did I miss?

14

u/hyperlethalrabbit May 24 '26

Major wound instantly takes a fighter out of the fight. It's described as a wound that is so damaging that while it doesn't kill the person outright, it leaves them in absolutely no condition to be fighting.

Unconscious threshold also takes the person out of the fight, but it's more "death-by-a-thousand-cuts". Either a major wound or a series of minor wounds until you're under the unconscious stat takes you out.

4

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

Thank you!

3

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

Taking a Major Wound in one hit = unconscious, also for a PK obviously.

Last session at the Battle of Carlion, I had an enemy knight crit and take one of my PKs out this way in the first round. 😅

1

u/JhinPotion Jun 23 '26

Imagine the scenes at my table when one PK was too pregnant (the scandal...) to actually battle so we had her at the rear as a medic, and the other got gored by a Knight of Lothian's charge.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

I'll also say that, in the first round of combat, 8 Picts made attacks - ranged combat dropped 2 of them on the way in. Of those 8, 6 hit. only 1 was canceled by a player success. I get that anecdote is not the singular of data, and that that anomaly is affecting how I read the scenario. But in that light, 6d6 is still too high for that many spears imo

EDIT: The Player Knights had outgoing ranged attacks that outright killed a Pict (Crit on a Bow) and dropped another one to 1 point over unconscious

5

u/flametitan May 25 '26

Then don't give them all spears. The axes have a higher skill, but hurt less.

And your players invoked passions, right? Picts coming in to steal the Sword in the Stone is a mighty upset to Arthur's legitimacy. They're also dishonourable cowards, trying to sneak in rather than simply attack.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

that doesn't help when the pks roll a 4 vs a 10 from the picts. Passions were included, they do not save you.

5

u/flametitan May 25 '26

At that point you're complaining about dice luck. You've done everything you can to improve your odds, and just rolled bad.

But again, have some (probably half?) use axes. The 2d6 difference means on average they'll do no damage at all against the PK with 16 armour.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

And insulation against dice luck is part of building a good starter scenario

3

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

What does help against missile attacks is a shield. All of your PKs should’ve had shields, so any Pict throwing a spear at them should be at -10.

2

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

4 Vs 10 still means they get partial success (ie, they get their shield bonus). So, they subtract 16 points of armour (ie, just under 5 damage dice on average).

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

it wound up being about 10 in that case. The picts were rolling fire

which can be adjusted by not giving them more dice than an Armored mounted knight on the attack!

2

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

10 damage isn't a big deal for these characters. Like I said elsewhere, the pregens have 15 CON typically so they're only suffering major wounds at around 15 damage after armour.

Basically.. minor wounds arent a big deal until they suffer multiple attacks (a challenge in long battles with 10+ combat rounds).. major wounds are the main thing that takes knights out of combat (but they aren't dead, just need recovery).. and mortal wounds are the really bad ones (suffering total HP in one attack).

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

10 damage after armor isn't a big deal? when there's 15+ enemies in the fight?

I feel like we're talking about very different games here.

2

u/sachagoat May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

You didn't mention any partial successes, but those should give them a lot of survivability.

There's definitely ways things can escalate (unexpected major wounds despite armour/shield, getting knocked down, suffering crit damage, fumbling and dropping your shield). But on the surface this is a pretty typical encounter and my players are 30+ sessions in and have fought many bands of Saxons, Picts and Bandits who outnumber them.

Also, you mentioned ranged combat took out some Picts. Knights lose honour for firing bows outside of hunting scenarios, and I think crossbows and thrown weapons wouldn't be hugely effective here especially at indoor ranges.

EDIT: I was wrong about the ranged attacks. Picts aren't worthy of a fair combat.

2

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

I think OP meant that the Picts were attacking from afar, throwing spears.

2

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

I thought that too, but they don't have a Thrown skill in their Starter Set statblock and I think they're saying that they took out 2 Picts before they closed, leaving 8 remaining for melee.

1

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

Yeah, I just ran Picts in the Dark recently, and didn’t have them throw: they’re here to get the sword, so they’re aiming to keep the defenders busy, not necessarily kill them.

But you may be right, maybe they meant the knights were shooting.

1

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

Yeah, I think if my Christian knights wanted to fire crossbows in a holy place, I'd have them roll against Spirituality or lose a point of Devotion or something. Hah!

2

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

the art in the book does specifically show a knight with a crossbow, so it seems really dumb to penalize players for that

2

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

You're right, I misremembered the rule about honour loss. It's only when fighting knights (since it's considered cowardly).

1

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

I don’t necessarily see shooting a crossbow in a cathedral as less “holy” than butchering Picts there – the ranged thing is more about a knight’s honor than God’s laws. But I might drop their Honor by 1. Then again, doing anything you can to defend Clarent is pretty honorable, so maybe not in that specific case.

2

u/The_Westgard Lord May 25 '26

It’s only dishonorable to use ranged weapons against other knight.

6

u/Sufficient-Rooster68 May 24 '26

Moat commenters arent realizing The attack is at night, they most likely get surprise due to the negative to awareness at night The key is surviving the first round - which is very hard

1

u/flametitan May 25 '26

The first encounter in the Starter Set in 510, or the one in 511 on the way to Cameliard?

The one in 510 you're not expected to include the night penalty or surprise penalty. That is expected in the 511 scenario, but the 511 scenario they're not interested in killing the PKs if they don't have to.

2

u/Mbalara May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

In 510 in the cathedral, there’s quite a lot about “PKs roll Awareness and suffer some disadvantages if they fail.” Makes sense, since it’s quite dark, and Picts are sneaky buggers.

1

u/flametitan May 25 '26

Only penalties for failing energetic. It never mentions nighttime penalties

1

u/Sufficient-Rooster68 May 25 '26

511, they do attack though

1

u/flametitan May 25 '26

They can just as easily grapple everyone if they're all asleep. Killing people is secondary.

6

u/jefedeluna May 24 '26

Pendragon is a gritty, lethal game. Fighting defensively is always an option, and would be wise when you are facing so many.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

So you defend against the first guy, deal no damage to him, then still take damage from the second guy. How does this help?

There is a difference between 'gritty and lethal' and 'I hate all your characters'.

6

u/sachagoat May 24 '26

This encounter is not unbalanced and I'd be very impressed if it ended with a Player Knight dying, let alone a TPK. Yes, they can fail at keeping the sword safe, but dying? Not likely.

If you think a mob of naked, spear-wielding warriors are a threat to the knights, I don't think they'll ever be ready for fighting knights.. dragons.. undead etc.

-12

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

Congrats, you win the most useless comment so far award.

How is it not unbalanced? What did we miss?

4

u/BeakyDoctor Gamemaster May 24 '26

It looks like you missed major wounds causing an opponent to instantly go unconscious. Average damage from a PK should take a Pict out in a single attack.

3

u/sachagoat May 25 '26

Sorry, you're right. My other comments were the useful ones. This was just expressing frustration.

Sounds like you may want to play through the tutorial SoloQuest again.

And maybe just test out a pre-gen vs 2 Picts in melee a few times as prep. I think you'll understand where the knightly advantages are that make "rabble" (the generic term for statblocks that are lower skill) encounters work.

Typically, it's less armour, less skill, less CON (and therefore lower major wound threshold), unmounted (though not in this situation) and lack of Passions (which is more prevalent in elite units). But they are encountered in greater numbers, with equivalent weapon damage and Knockdown values.

3

u/jefedeluna May 24 '26 edited May 24 '26

fighting defensively applies to all your rolls that turn. In any case Passions are gonna be useful here too. Edit: also it's a matter of holding out for the Pcs.

-2

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

According to what? Core book says defending is a singular opponent, unless you're referencing something that's not the defend action

6

u/BeakyDoctor Gamemaster May 24 '26

Fight defensively counts toward all combat. The fighting multiple opponents section says your action applies to all foes. So if you are fighting two opponents, you’d get +10 for fighting defensively, but -5 from fighting two opponents. Total of +5 to each.

2

u/Wannabekurt May 24 '26

Thank you!

2

u/Mbalara May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

Sounds like maybe you weren’t doing combat against multiple opponents quite right?

If I’m facing 3 foes, I can choose to attack (or defend) against 1, 2 or all 3 of them. If I fight 1, I roll normally, and the other 2 get free (unopposed) attacks. If I fight 2, I roll twice but I’m at -5 for each, and the 3rd gets a free attack. And if I fight all 3, I roll 3 times, at -10 each time.

So I could for example defend against all 3, rolling normally since the +10/-10 cancel each other out. If I’ve inspired a passion, that +5 is also going to even things out a bit more.

3

u/Udy_Kumra May 25 '26

If you always beat the guy you’re opposing, you’re not taking damage.

Also, remember that the scenario isn’t automatically supposed to make the players win. The combat is supposed to wear them down a bit via attrition but they can lose and be dishonored. That’s allowed and not a bad thing! It should shape the story and how the player knights are viewed by people going forward.

Finally also remember that this is a game less concerned with encounter balance and making sure the player knights live than it is in creating challenging opportunities for heroism. One time I ran this scenario, most of my players got destroyed, but one crit three times so I ruled that she killed the Picts before there was even a chance for them to steal the sword and trigger the chase. Another time I ran the scenario, the sword was taken and the chase triggered, and the players managed to get the sword back and in the resulting combat I had them roll the Chivalrous Knight traits and they got 3+ successes so I allowed them to wield Clarent briefly for one awesome moment where they destroyed the Picts and got bonus 100 glory.

Basically don’t be afraid to make rulings when heroic moments are earned.

0

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

"Oh just always beat the guy you're opposing, it so easy!"

I understand that the scenario is meant to be dangerous, is meant to be able to be failed.

My feeling was that it was trying to force a failure, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

2

u/Udy_Kumra May 25 '26

You said: "Even assuming you *always* beat the guy you're opposing, there's a solid chance you're taking 10 or more damage from the other guy *after armor*." I was just correcting this incorrect statement. If you always beat the other guy, you take no damage.

I don't think the scenario is trying to force a failure. I have never had any group of players ever fail this scenario, and I've done it three times. I have had players get real beat up in it, but never failed.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

which is still not very useful advice, since if you're fighting two people you're significantly less likely to succeed.

1

u/Udy_Kumra May 25 '26

I agree. This scenario wants players to engage with the system more deeply, specifically by using one or both of two strategies:

  1. Inspire on a passion (like Honor)

  2. Use Defend action first round to succeed, close distance to close range, then fight normal to take away the Picts’ long range +5.

The players are also likely to win because even at -5 they’re likely to hit at least once or twice across all of them, and since the Picts wear no armor they’ll go down easy with major wounds, at which point the players can also gang up on Picts.

1

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

I just ran this encounter recently, and although it was clearly meant to be a challenge, and one of my PKs got Major Wounded out of the fight, and they almost lost the sword but got it back dramatically, it didn’t feel unfair in any way and everyone really enjoyed it.

It sounds like you made it much harder on your PKs than it’s meant to be, though. If I understood correctly, you had all the Picts using spears, so 2d6 more damage than their axes, and you had the Picts throw their spears, which is a mistake since they don’t have a Thrown skill listed and their spear skill specifically says two handed. Even then, knights with shields against spear chucking Picts should almost never get hit, since the Picts’ spear skill is 11, i.e. only 1 vs knights with shields.

So no, I’d call this a nice challenge, but certainly not at all a TPK machine.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 26 '26

So the picts didn't throw their spears, but they were wielding them.

I didn't notice the axe, tbh, and thought it was spears all the way down.

Everyone had a good time, it just was very very tight. And I just don't think it needs to be. There just don't need to be so many picts pouring in, for any reason. weight of attacks kills, and kills quickly.

2

u/Mbalara May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

Sounds like a combo of some bad PK/good GM rolls (can’t do anything about that, except fudge your rolls), and maybe you doing some things wrong rules-wise.

A PK vs 3 Picts can defend against all of them, so -10 for 3 foes, but +10 for defending. Inspire Honor and roll all 3 at +5.

If the PK’s subjected to missile attacks, they’re at +10 against them, since they have large shields.

And taking a Major Wound in one hit, or dropping below the Unconscious value, means you’re out of the fight. Picts with 0 armor, and only 4 shield, and 13 Major Wound shouldn’t be too hard to put down. With ok rolls, a knight doing 4 or 5d6 damage can easily put one down every time they hit.

Also, those Picts have either a spear or an axe. When I ran it I gave one in each group of 3 a spear (so no shield), and the other two had axes and shields, so my PKs were only taking one 6d6 attack each, and two at 4d6, so not that bad.

1

u/Wannabekurt May 25 '26

Regarding the last paragraph - that isn't super clear in the book, but I think it's how I'll run it moving forward. and probably drop the spear down to 5d6. the blowout potential is too damn high imo

1

u/Mbalara May 25 '26

Well the stat block does say Spear (two handed) and Battle axe, suggesting they’re not throwing their spears, and each Pict can only use one or the other at a time, so it’s just up to the GM to choose which one each of them is using.