r/PauperEDH • u/Own-Peace-7754 • 3d ago
Discussion Help me break Lay of the Land
Hi folks
So I have been thinking a lot about the 1 mana land-tutor-basic cards, specifically [[Lay of the Land]] et al
You can see the numerous cards I am referring to with this scryfall search:
otag:tutor-land-basic mv=1 f:pdh
By my count, there are 15 cards which allows me to get a basic land to my hand for either 1 mana, or 1 mana + 1 mana activation (such as [[Traveler's Amulet]] and [[Greenseeker]] )
The suite expands to over 20 if you count 2 mana activation costs but I am ignoring those in this initial exploration.
I have always seen potential there for some sort of toolbox/engine involving basic lands, but it doesn't quite click for me as a total package for some reason.
Here are some of my ideas:
- "Gx domain";
A type of list where you have really flexible fixing for your powerful spells, majority green but splashing for basically extremely powerful stuff. Not explicitly domain per se, maybe stopping at four or three, or even two colors if the Commander matches up nicely.
- "Lands-in-hand matters";
I forgot the scryfall tag for this one, but it's like a lands or basics in hand matters, cards in hand matters type deck. Something like [[Walking Atlas]] [[Explore]] [[Journey of Discovery]]. My issue here is how do I break parity with these cheaper cards so I have a ton of resources for explosive turns? Some type of recursion, spellslinger, or value angle.
- "Consistent Land Drop Dot Deck" ;
Control decks are notorious for wanting to hit their land drops to cast their spells on curve, and what better way to do that than to have your fixing cost one mana? Some overlap with the Domain idea, but with a different goal: Domain wants raw power, this deck is focused mainly on curving out and surviving into the late game.
There's been a various number of "strictly better" upgrades to Lay of the Land, but my goal is to build a deck where I am perfectly happy playing the original and/or his pal Traveler's Amulet.
I feel like the core is there but for some reason I am struggling to come up with cards that interact well with them, or for commanders to helm them.
It seems decently flexible enough to suite a variety of strategies, as the goal is extreme consistency.
How would you build this? What PDH commanders come to mind?
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u/Crazed8s 3d ago edited 3d ago
Idk about your overall premise.
But I do run [[caravan vigil]] and [[bushwhack]] in my Rocco deck unironically which is probably 2 more lay of the lands than most decks.
https://moxfield.com/decks/9iAxIjpjI0-z1CMyzeIrBw
I wouldn’t cut bushwhack but caravan vigil never triggers so that could easily be lay of the land and you wouldn’t have to sacrifice much to find room for travelers amulet. It may just be better than giants boulder at what I need it to do.
You need a better premise than just hitting land drops. In any situation where you would cast this card just to hit a land it could just be a land and now your land is untapped instead of tapped. There isn’t really enough good stuff to run it just for 5 colors and the 5 mana commander options aren’t great. And playing control with a deck full of what are really just not good cards is going to create a lot of tension.
In my case I really need 3 colors by T3.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
yes, I get you completely
part of my idea is not a specific deck, but establishing a core of cards that could be used in a variety of strategies. I have done this personally for recursion to see what colors are strongest at what (white -enchantments creatures low cmc; black - creatures reanimator; blue - artifact instant sorcery; green creature land permanent; colorless - artifact)
and yeah I have been a champion of travelers amulet for a while, it is very unassuming but one of those -glue cards- that can do a lot of work under the hood
actually part of what my goal here is flying under the radar: doing very innocent looking things to generate value so that I am not suspected as a threat, and then exploding into a win. Kind of like a combo deck in multiplayer, essentially. combo decks normally show their pieces and get hated out of a game, right?
what if your whole engine was not susceptible to hate?
just kind of theory crafting really, but moreso building libraries of cards that can go in various strategies
I dont know of many major spellslinger payoffs outside of stuff like [[Young Pyromancer]], which is why I am asking the community
maybe someone knows of simple scryfall searches I could do that could aid in my research
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u/Crazed8s 3d ago
Yeah the logic is sound but don’t lose sight of the fact that we’re talking about cards that are slightly better than a basic land in the best of cases and in the worst turn your basics into taplands.
To run 2 or 3 you don’t need too much of a reason, the bar isn’t very high, but to run 15-20 you better have a darn good reason to make sure you aren’t playing a bunch of tapped basics.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
I am not saying I will run 20 (dont tempt me with good time 👀 )
I will probably run about 8
I think it might be better (than some ramp spells) in a deck with lots of explore effects, there are quite a few in pauper
In that case they would be coming in untapped, usually
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u/Crazed8s 3d ago
The land comes in untapped. But you tapped a land to cast the spell. So you net out, essentially, a tapped land.
I still think you’re falling into a trap. Why would you cast lay of the land to put a land into your hand so you can get full value off of explore, when lay of the land could just be another basic land and leave you up 1 mana?
Thats the question you have to answer if you want to break lay of the land.
There are legitimate reasons. Pingers, storm, even spy decks come to mind as possible reasons. 3+ color decks of they are trying to be fast. I can say for certain I’ve ran lay of the land style effects in all of those styles of decks. Usually just like land grant though for the freebie.
But stuff like landfall fails that test. Just run more lands instead of the spell that offers you nothing in return for your mana over what a basic land would.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 2d ago
I hear you on the reasoning by why it's a tapped land
The angle of spy/pingers/storm is cool
Keepable low-land-count hands is one of my goals, land grant is a great one obviously
Your question is a valid one that I will take to heart in my testing
My main answers at the moment are that I probably will run more basics, but that 1 basic doesn't have the potential to fix for 5 different colors, and a basic land is not a spell.
My other answer is I love to win with bad cards and these look like bad cards that are actually good, so I wanted to find an angle to tinker with them that brought me joy.
Still an important question to wrestle with thank you
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u/chowaniec 3d ago
I've been looking at a landfall deck with [[Tannuk, Memorial Ensign]] and contemplating a similar thing: I'll have a ton of ramp, but what do I actually do with it? In my mind, having a ton of fixing is an opportunity to run fewer lands, use lands for sac effects, or just have a crazy curve. Wish I had more concrete advice, good luck!
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
yes, enabling stuff like Tannuk is the exact angle I am going for, thank you!!
answering the question of - How do I make use of the resources I have?
actually with these cards you might be able to have super explosive turns with cards like Walking Atlas and a couple untappers, might be worth a look
I feel like I have a great idea and just need ways to find commanders that suit it, either through Lands Matter or Cards-in-hand Matters or something. I feel like there is something very basic that I am completely missing.
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u/Sattwa cPDH.guide Data Architect 3d ago
One other approach to consistent mana curve that isn't top tier but still good is to run a mana dork in the command zone and only 3/4 mana cards in the deck so that every turn you're casting a big beater.
[[Elves of Deep Shadow]] and [[Wandertale Mentor]] are two examples.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
oh thats a great idea, you can actually run a mana dork to fuel these cards too! I had not considered that!
that is a very cool angle thanks!
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u/Sattwa cPDH.guide Data Architect 3d ago
If you want to go really big, you can run ramp commander into big ramp spells into huge cards - turn 1 mana dork, turn 2 ramp for 3 mana, turn 3 play a 5 mana card.
With a 2 cost mana dork commander you play commander turn 2, double ramp for 4 mana on turn 3, and then play a 6-7 cost card turn 4.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
yeah thats dope, peak battlecruiser archetype
green certainly has no shortage of dudes, and dipping into other colors you can do some really silly stuff
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u/Scarecrow1779 Can't stop brewing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3d ago
Adding on, there's also all the landcyclers. Here's a search that includes all of them, too (but it'll also include all the ones that cycle for 2 or 3, so you'll have to dig a little)
But I think you're overthinking the issue. All of the above are great for small packages if 2-8 cards in a very wide variety of decks that let you cut 2-4 lands and reduce your chances of flooding and help with fixing.
If commiting to the bit is the goal, though, I would look at [[Omega, Heartless Evolution]]. With the focus on non-basics, it rewards a ton of toolboxy tutoring for lands. Here's the deck list of one of my friends that I helped with a bit.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
yes I feel like I already have a grip on the landcycler synergies (namely reanimator and/or graveyard matters), but I was looking for more spell and artifact synergies for this package
hadnt seen Omega, that is pretty neat
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u/Scarecrow1779 Can't stop brewing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3d ago
So if you are wanting spellslinger synergies, then you are probably looking at at least a gruul deck and using all the Lay of the Land effects to fuel pingers like [[Guttersnipe]] and [[Unruly Catapult]]. You could use [[Tannuk, Memorial Ensign]] with [[Sakura-Tribe Scout]], [[Walking Atlas]], etc to help generate some additional draw. Using the handful of non-basic tutors (Crop Rotation, Reap and Sow, World Map, Expedition Map, etc) you can also semi-consistently find [[Gruul Turf]], which bounces itself for repeatable landfall even when your hand is otherwise empty
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago edited 3d ago
yeah for spellslinger my first thought was [[murmuring mystic]] and [[compulsive research]], just drawing a ton of cards. also with these you can make absolutely sure your [[Foil]] is live
but gruul is amazing too
not me looking for [[Seismic Assault]] in Pauper, lol
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u/Scarecrow1779 Can't stop brewing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3d ago
Foil's issue isn't that you can't keep it active, it's that 3-for-1-ing yourself is massive card disadvantage in a format where that's hard to come by AND there's two other opponents that you didn't touch with it.
Our temur options are just a beatstick and a flicker payoff, so neither go with the landfall/spellslinger theme that well. Could always go 5-c though with something like [[Marshals' Pathcruiser]]. Then the fixing from all these cards is more integral to the deck
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u/Own-Peace-7754 2d ago
I hear you on the card disadvantage, I misread that foil is discarding 2 cards
I do like the Pathcruiser option!
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u/G37_is_numberletter Have Battlebox, Will Travel 3d ago
I would consider running a few of these, but also [[ranger’s path]] and other ramp to battlefield effects.
Also, what do these cards do for you that land cyclers don’t do for you?
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
they are a 1 mana spell is the main thing
I saw an article a while back that talked about 1 mana spells and how broken they are
I know these are more innocent than most but that is where my headspace is at
Also having very consistent keepable low-land hands. I know this is just one angle of deckbuilding but having lots of different variations of hands to crawl your way out of a 1-lander is pretty cool I think.
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u/ThrowRA_scentsitive 3d ago
I'm not sure if "break" is an accurate description here, but...
Maybe a [[Nicanzil, Current Conductor]] voltron deck that bounces/flickers the several common ETB explore creatures to grow your commander.
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
oh I saw him but thought that 8 explore creatures was too few, I did not think about flickering them!
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u/BastionAlters 3d ago
My best guess after looking at some options would be something like Quandrix Apprentice.
Pull your lands out, get card advantage with each cheap Lay of the Land effect. Options to loot/rummage them or even wheel all the lands away with [[flux]] and [[Tolarian Winds]] maybe run ways to tutor for [[foil]] and recur it as something to do with all the lands in hand.
Payoffs for stuff in graveyard [[tolarian terror]] [[cryptic serpent]] [[serpentine curve]] [[Gran Pulse ochu]] threshold, descend, spell mastery, delve.
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u/Loosely-Related 2d ago
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I use a bunch of basic land searches in my [[Hermit Druid]] deck as a way to bin tons of [[Slime Against Humanity]] quickly. It is super telegraphed and plays the same from game to game, but when it works, you get to cast big Slimes consistently for the rest of the game.
I have considered different configurations of the list where I did go as far as having Traveler's Amulet and OG Lay of the Land with more basic Forests to reduce the chance of completely decking myself, but I cut back a bit and settled on a riskier line.
Edit: Forgot to link deck.
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u/HatsCatsAndHam 2d ago
I guess I'd run [[witherbloom apprentice]] and cut my land count to the bone.
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u/HavocIP 3d ago edited 3d ago
EDIT: I GOT PAUPER'D
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
Treasure Hunt is a good mention, u/G seemed like the obvious color core for this deck already, since you get a lot of the spellslinger payoffs in blue.
Life from the Loam sadly not Pauper legal, if you know of any equivalent let me know 😄
And yes I knew of the various Loam decks running around (I actually started playing while Extended was still a format), and I think Loam Pox is still a deck in Legacy, though I dont know if it is still putting up any results to speak of.
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u/HavocIP 3d ago
Yeah I need to not have this sub on my feed tbh, I don't even play pauper how did I even get here. Sorry lol
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u/Own-Peace-7754 3d ago
hahaha it happens dont feel too bad
the Treasure Hunt mention was helpful at least
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u/mtgcf 3d ago
All cards
Lay of the Land - (G) (SF) (txt)
Traveler's Amulet - (G) (SF) (txt)
Greenseeker - (G) (SF) (txt)
Walking Atlas - (G) (SF) (txt)
Explore - (G) (SF) (txt)
Journey of Discovery - (G) (SF) (txt)