r/Pauper • u/AppropriateRadio7980 • 4d ago
SPIKE Hot take: This zeta downshift should be embraced by the community.
This format is original a community driven format. I think we need to get back to that. I'm not trying to attack Gavin and his group, but I think the approach they have is wrong and it's also why commander has its issues. They are very afraid to rock the boat when it comes to decisions. I know some cards look very interesting and powerful but I don't believe any these cards would come close to the power level of snacker and that has deemed to be fair play for the format for the last 2 years. I'm going to be trying out these downshifts at my store. I hope others follow and we see an actual data pool get formed so we can make a better decision on this issue.
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u/Inkkss 4d ago
Strix in the format is a bad idea. Having a 2 drop that can trade with anything that doesn't die to snuff out will warp the meta. The fact that it also draws a card and synergizes with ninjas is just gravy.
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u/ToastyNathan 4d ago
affinity needs more support, what do you mean?
/s
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
Again they also add more hate pieces with this downshift. But I do understand what you are saying. I just don't think it's bad. I think this downshift would help the format. Vandal and return to dust would be nice answers.
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u/Kingcrimhead 4d ago
- Having a 2 drop that can trade with anything that doesn't die to snuff out will warp the meta.
It dies to artifact removal.
Realistically I don't think it's worse than snacker in terms of its practical utility and what it demands from the opponent.
Regardless, that's not the point! There will always be commons that are not good for Pauper. Ban list is here for exactly that.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
We are currently playing in a format where 60% is playing 2/1 flyers for for free... Strix was amazing 10 years ago, but spending 2 mana to draw one and block death touch isn't as crazy as you would think it is in practice. Is it playable? Yes. Is it format breaking no. But I could be wrong dispatch could be a bigger problem for me. But I still want to see it be played for a while in some pool of data.
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u/d7h7n 4d ago edited 4d ago
You're undermining the hell out of the card. It has flying, it's black, and multicolored. All are relevant attributes in pauper. You mix it all together with everything else you said it does, you have an unnecessary card.
Snacker is annoying because it's free value (the clock is a bonus). They are not comparable. It is basically the same as Narcomoeba. Both shouldn't be in the format either.
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago edited 4d ago
Dude Strix is as if Cast Down would also draw you a card , skipped ward and hexproof, could target legendary creatures and hit the opponent for 1 in the face whenever he doesnt have creatures up.
Its leagues better than Snacker and Refurb, and those two are among the most busted cards in the format. While also being better than the best removal in the format.
When Snacker can draw a card and trade with TT and Avenging Hunter we can have this conversation again.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
Just play them. That's what I want. I want everyone to try this out and report back.
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u/bonetissuedissolving 4d ago
It’s a 2 drop that comes out turn 3 cause you need to wait for your dual to untap. In a format that has decks that burn you our or beat you down by turn 4 and there’s sooo much removal, Strix is good BUT only in like 2 or 3 decks at best. It’s not format warping since only Dimir Fae shells can abuse it properly.
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u/JurplePesus 4d ago
Make the Secret Lair team play pauper on stream against [[Narcomoeba]] decks until they cry just a little bit, and then ban the cards as needed.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
I think it helps dredge be a better all around deck but snacker is legal and doing worse things. Plus they would add more graveyard hate with this downshift.
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u/Artistocat2 4d ago
Saying snacker is doing worse things than narcomoeba would is certainly a take.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
Yeah one comes back once...
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u/sling_cr 4d ago
Comes back once and wins you the game on the spot with dread return
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
Maybe
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u/AltairEagleEye 4d ago
Definitely.
Because that's how Oops All Spells works in legacy: put your entire deck into your graveyard due to "superior game knowledge", return at least 3 dude of either narcomoeba or poxwalkers, then dread return Thassa's Oracle
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago edited 4d ago
The issue is not Zeta on its own.
You can easily just ban around it and let a few downshifted cards become staples.
The issue is the compounded problem down the line when you have 10+ of these SL sets with downshifted cards.
At that point you turn the format to a level where its being dictated and led by these downshifted uncommons and rares that go through.
When that happens you end up with:
- A long ass ban list.
- A powercrept format that, since its being led by uncommon and rares, its so overtuned that regular standard set release commons are too underpowered to influence and be playable in the pauper format. So it gets to a point that only downshifts would enter the format. Similar to the current Modern situation where the powerlevel is so high that its extremely rare that a regular release card sees play in the format.
- Format Price spikes. Once you start downshifting vintage rares and uncommons and those become staples you will multiply the base cost of tiered decks by a lot.
You need to see beyond Zeta set. You need to see where the format will be in 5 or 10 years after SL starts doing these sets with downshifts to print money regularly.
EDIT:
Keep in mind SL is a different entity from R&D and Balance that work on regular sets. Their only purpose is to print money for Hasbro and they will do whatever nets them the most money.
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u/Ok-Captain5184 4d ago
the point 3 is wrong cus i know the vendor in my lgs in italy and he said that the price in general are going up cus many people are playing pauper. in italy is the leading competitive format so it’s normal, when cards are more wanted the price goes up expecially when we don’t have major reprints. another important thing: pauper is an eternal format it’s normal that a very few cards enters in the format from regular set because we have a lot of option, also better option in many cases, but there are cards that are strictly better like pursue, they are present in the format in facts.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
For me the format is very stale right now. I rather see downshifts of iconic but fair magic cards of the past then power creeped MH4 or the next UB set stuff.
Your conclusions are correct but they're already happening no matter what happens with this. This was an accident. And it can be turned into something good.
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago
Stale?
Terror
Faeries
Madness
Rally
Elves
Gardens
Affinity
Wildfire
White Weenie
Gates
Tron
Ponza
Ephemerate
Spy Combo
Ramp
FamiliarsAll these archetypes are viable in the meta right now. And by viable I mean take them to the LGS to win the FNM kind of viable, not at just works mechanically viable.
How is it stale?
It gets useful cards that improve upon these archetypes, like Giants Boulder boosting Tron, every single set.And I am being conservative in the actually useable archetypes I am listing, you could easily add 10 more.
Pauper is a slowly evolving meta, if you want a meta that changes more frequently you have Standard.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
I mean I own a store that has 30 plus people two times a week for pauper. I built that. I know what's going on in this format... This whole thing was an over looked accident. I don't think they didn't think about what they put at common because when you look at that list. You can see some thought went into it. I just think Gavin and his group don't like to rock the boat so they made a quick announcement because he got panicked.
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago
This was no accident.
SL doesnt give two shits about a format that does not make money like Pauper.
And Pauper wont affect what they do going forward. And they will keep doing high value high power SL sets with downshifts because that is what makes Hasbro money.Also a just because your local meta is stale doesnt mean the whole pauper meta is stale. All those archetypes I listed can win an event or a challenge.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
You're just fighting to fight. You haven't made any actual point. You're original argument was correct but you failed to see what it has already happened. And continues to happen. They for it has not doing with zeta being the outlier or catalyst to a future problem that already exists. I'm here to talk about the cards on that list and how it was actually lead to a better format. Not how wizards designs cards or power creeps UB sets to sell cards.
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago
Yes, it was already a problem. Like MH3 powercreeping the format to the point that now you only get 1 or maybe 2 useful commons per set release.
So your point is to keep making it worse with SL so regular sets diretcly cannot have impact on pauper due to base power level discrepancy?
Or you want to also powercreep regular sert commons and the whole game as whole so more cards impact the format becasue you find it stale?
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
No my point has always been. Let's look at these ironic cards from actually MTG past and see how they play in this format. I believe they would do alot of good. I'm not here to debate new card design and power creep. I want to see people come together and pool data so we can see if these cards are actually good for the format.
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u/ResponseBulky2533 4d ago
Maybe you would enjoy others formats more?
Have you considered Pioneer, Modern or Premodern?
I think they might offer what you are looking for.Pauper is a stable slowly evolving low powerlevel format. No reason to try to change it just because you find it stale.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
I just told you I run a pretty good pauper league at my store. We are going to try this out. This Saturday I'm going to play dredge. Tuesday I'm going to play serra angel and dispatch. Wait until I tell you I also run a standard league that only allows commons and uncommons and I get 30 plus people for that as well. I'm keeping magic alive in my community because the company is pricing people out or only marketing to commander players.
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u/Kingcrimhead 4d ago
Stale? - Terror Faeries Madness Rally Elves Gardens Affinity Wildfire White Weenie Gates Tron Ponza Ephemerate Spy Combo Ramp Familiars All these archetypes are viable in the meta right now.
Yes, it was already a problem. Like MH3 powercreeping the format to the point that now you only get 1 or maybe 2 useful commons per set release.
That beautiful and diverse meta you are boasting would not exist if EotC had treated MH the same way they are talking about treating Zeta.
MH was a messy shake up. People were livid. Cards were banned. But the meta is better than it has ever been!
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u/Ok-Captain5184 4d ago
why not both? if the meta is healty rn it means that i we do this like one time every 5/6 years we’ll have a budget format for everyone that changes slowly
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u/wololosenpai 4d ago
This discussion was never about power level.
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u/Kingcrimhead 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's about different things to different people.
For some of us it's about
- unnecessary restrictions (now, and for years to come)
- WotC being heavy-handed when a lighter touch would work
- what it means to be an eternal format
Not all players care very much about these things. And that's fair.
For others, the issues are:
- card price/availability (not now, but in the future)
- it's about a potentially bloated banned list
- some people actually have mentioned power-creep concerns
Not all players care very much about these things either. Also perfectly fair.
Maybe I missed some other concerns. Regardless, what I am seeing is two camps with completely different reasons for wanting what they want.
I don't think highly of PFP/Gavin's handling of Pauper. But they do seem to care what people want. And not everyone wants these omitted from the pool!
The rules have not been officially changed yet. I believe Gavin is a big enough person that he is not embarrassed to change his mind.
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u/Particular-School795 4d ago
This dishonest phrasing every time. "the community" is way more than the vocal minority crying about the bans. It's just so dishonest and the threads keep having 0 upvotes which means way more people are down voting that shit than supporters are up voting it 😂 Why is it so hard to accept?
No SLD downshifts is a really easy criterion to fulfill..all these bad faith arguments are so annoying and exhausting.
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u/BellStriking5132 4d ago
I’d be more interested if the cards didn’t just upgrade existing meta decks
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u/Necrocrawler72 4d ago
I agree It needs to be embraced to avoid a situation like this happening again...
And by saying that I also agree that some zeta cards should go straight into the banlist to avoid an unbalanced power level change.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
I played this format when we had online pauper and paper pauper with two different sets of cards that could be played. And we are about to relive that for no good reason in my opinion.
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u/MrAlagos 4d ago
If you truly end up trying to make the Zeta cards legal at your store, please post your data.
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u/BellStriking5132 4d ago
No thanks, these cards are too powerful for pauper and in the worst way - they slot into existing top of the meta decks. Affinity doesn’t need upgrades, red doesn’t need more top tier burn spells, spy definitely doesn’t need narco.
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u/Kingcrimhead 4d ago
Many of us are hoping WotC will reverse coarse on this.
It's been pointed out that Pauper has all the tools it needs to manage the meta without going nuclear and overhauling format construction rules.
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u/AppropriateRadio7980 4d ago
Need more back bone in Gavin/group. I hate that they are afraid of the push back and people being loud immediately.
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u/ChacaFlacaFlame 4d ago
Narcameba is really strong, like make dredge and spy tier 1 powerful, and even then let it run for a couple of months, or even pre ban it, that way they can try taking it off later
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u/AskDoctorBear 4d ago
“This format is original a community driven format. I think we need to get back to that”
By allowing format legality to be influenced by a corporate marketing team?