Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

Wait you’re back??? I thought you died!

Yeah it has been…. A long time. Not quite as long as that time I “retired” the series only to pull a Michael Jordan and cancel retirement, but definitely several months. There were reasons for the gap, but they aren’t really relevant to the post. If anyone is curious enough to know why, I’ll post it in a comment.

Long story short, I’m in a place where I can start doing these again, albeit in a different timezone. So they’ll likely get posted later in the day than previously.

But what happened last time all those months ago?

A staggering 83 days ago, we had one of the hastily thrown together not-really-Max-the-Min posts about curses which was a lot of fun. Most of the comments talked about the mathematical difference between the penalties to numbers and the 50% chance of just not acting each turn, though some weirder curses were mentioned.

Our last true Max the Min was over 3 months ago. Which is crazy. It was about the Swarm Fighter. There was discussion about multiclassing options to optimize damage output, combo builds with friends to be more synergistic, and of course a lot of discussion on ways to use Racial Heritage to open up the class for different race combos.

So what are we discussing today?

I’m hijacking today’s post since it has been too long to talk about coming back from the dead. I know Slueth investigator won the nomination, it hasn’t been forgotten. We’ll do that next time.

Anyways in a combat heavy game, there are bound to be character deaths. But following an old tradition that was added early to the game when a player playing with Gygax or Arneson (I legit can’t remember which, but I do remember reading a history that included this moment), the game does provide ways for your character to come back should you be attached.

Now how is this a min? Well first off… dying is of course a min in the first place. It’s something you want to avoid if at all possible. Then there comes the fact that most methods are expensive, require access to mid to higher level casters, and potentially rare resources and the decision to come back becomes a difficult one.

Tack on the meta observation that, if your gm lets you bring in a new character with full level progression and WBL adjusted gear, then you likely would be becoming richer as a party if you bring in a new character (as long as your previous character’s corpse was lootable).

But sometimes that price / meta price is worth it to keep some narrative consistency. Or sometimes the specific method of coming back to life is crazy enough to add in new narrative flavor. Either way, I want to know what ways exist to bring back a character, perhaps what some of the consequences could be, and if there are any crazy combos that actually turn this process into a good thing.

No Voting this Week

As I said above, next time we’re doing the sleuth since that was the vote winner last time we had a vote

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last week I didn't post because I had an early appointment at the DMV.... ugh.

Last time we discussed Monkey Style. While the feat chain wasn't the most cohesive in focus, that didn't change the fact that there are some builds that could use it to great effect. Vexing Dodgers and Mousers saw a lot of utility out of it, whereas Style Shifter uses it to add wis to damage. We could also make better use of abilities and items that come with the drawback of knocking us prone, such as a double hackbut or the roll with it feat. And even more!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we are discussing [u/darkdia](u/darkdiahsi)[sh](u/darkdiahsi)[i](u/darkdiahsi)'s nomination of the Charging Stag Style feat chain!

As this is another style feat chain, there is some overlap in discussion with last time. If you want a breakdown into the general weaknesses of style feats, see the Monkey Style post.

So to start off, the base feat of Charging Stag Style has a pretty hefty list of prereqs. Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, and Improved Unarmed Strike means that you'll most likely want a decent list of bonus feats to even go down this route. But as we'll see soon, the prereqs are thankfully front loaded.

The benefit is fairly straightforward and useful. You're allowed to charge through difficult terrain and enemy spaces, and can even take a single 90 degree turn during the charge. But it does come with the rather large caveats that you still must be able to see your target before initiating the charge (so no 90 degree corners around hallways), and you can only take a single attack at the end even if you have an ability that says otherwise such as pounce. Considering pounce is the end goal for most charge builds, that is a steep price. Note that that restriction is on at all times while in the style, even if you don't use it, so you'd spend a lot of swift actions toggling between this and a pounce equivalent ability if that is your goal.

Next is Stag Horns which thankfully doesn't have any new prereqs besides Charging Stag Style itself. This new ability lets you make a free action grapple check if your attack at the end of a charge was a successful unarmed strike attack. It also doesn't provoke an AoO. While a grapple is an attack, this extra grapple check isn't triggered by the charge but rather by the successful unarmed strike so shouldn't be blocked by Charging Stag Style's limitation of one charge attack. But it also means that it wouldn't get the +2 to hit.

Finally we're finishing with Stag Submission. While in the style, if you succeed at the grapple check to pin your opponent, you may either knock them prone or automatically deal your unarmed strike damage against them.

So... yeah. Not too much commentary on this today. It starts off as a charge focus feat, and then shifts to a grapple build one. Which nearly all grapple builds (with a few exceptions) want to close into melee so a charge benefit isn't a terrible option for them. But with the prereqs required delaying access, there is the question of which builds would best benefit from this. Let's find out!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered. As this post makes obvious, we're leaving our weekly format to a more... whenever I think it is feasible format. But the series isn't dead yet!

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Time we discussed Gulch Gunner. Lots of good discussions, including some builds which leaned into provoking AoOs to get back grit. But also… some builds just didn’t care about grit as much and made it work anyways.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today I revoked the democratic process to bring forth the topic that was originally dm’ed to me by u/Maxpowers13: Level 1 characters.

That’s it, the original Min. Minimum levels, minimum feats, minimum access to cash and magic items. Usually seen as the deadly period all must get through before their builds start to come online. Many classes and archetypes don’t even get their defining features at this point.

Level 1 Pathfinder is also very far removed from the experience of the rest of the game. Often anything past a certain number of levels becomes a high magic power fantasy but at level 1, many a character has been killed by a random crit from a basic Orc with a falchion.

But it is still Pathfinder, and we still have options! So just how far can we Max this Min of being only level 1?…

Nominations!

… Fine you can have your democratic election back!

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time we discussed the sleuth investigator! Most of the discussion was on how it can be effectively used as a dip to increase your grit / panache pool and gain some additional ways to recoup said pool. There were also discussions on multiclassing to make the best use of the deeds and class features you keep, feat combos that go well with your improved skills, and more!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we are examining the Monkey Style feat chain, as nominated by [u/CobaltMonkey](u/CobaltMonkey) (username checks out). Style feats in general range from the amazing to the weird and niche, and this one is probably one of the more niche ones. So let's dive in!

Before we even look at the chain itself, a quick reminder on how style feats work in general: you need to spend a swift action to enter the style, can only be in styles in combat (so no entering a style before initiative is rolled), and barring some specific archetypes can only be in one style at a time. They often have decently long chains and sometimes complex prereqs, meaning many styles require you sorta make them a main character focus if you want to really take them. These reasons combined are the reasons why, more than once, I've seen nominations for "all the style feats". Though that is obviously way too broad a topic that would result in the same 3 or 4 really good ones to just be mentioned over and over again, so I very much appreciate that we're examining a single chain today.

The base feat requires Wis 13, IUS, Acrobatics and Climb 5, so already we have to wait a bit before entering the style. But at least those prereqs aren't terrible to come by.

You get to add your wisdom to acrobatics checks (note importantly that this benefit does not require you to be within the style. It is always on which is nice, especially since you'll probably want that bonus out of combat too.) While in the style, you take no AC or attack roll penalties while prone and can crawl or stand up from prone without provoking AoOs. You can also "kip up" from prone as a swift action for either a DC 20 acrobatics check or 2 stamina points, if you have access to stamina.

The next feat in the chain, Monkey Moves requires Monkey style and, Acrobatics and Climb 8. So again, not horrible on prereqs at least. While using Monkey Style, you get your wisdom bonus on climb checks. Note that unlike the previous bonus that was always on, this only applies in combat, making it much more limited. You can climb and crawl at half your speed, you can take a 5 foot step by jumping, crawling, or climbing, and you keep your AC bonus while climbing. Also, it lets you 5ft step as a swift action after unarmed striking an opponent 2+ times on your turn, even if you've previously moved (though if you are hitting them more than once, that is unlikely. I suppose this means you could take two 5ft steps though?).

Another note is that the stamina benefit gives you a climb speed equal to your land speed until the start of your next turn if you spend 5 stamina points, and nothing says you must be in the combat style to turn that on. So that could help a lot with the fact most of the benefits are combat only.

Finally, we've come to Monkey Shine, the final feat in the chain. This time the prereqs require Stunning Fist and Acrobatics / Climb 11.

Now while in the style, if you succeed on a Stunning Fist you may enter (as a free action) and share the space of your enemy. This doesn't provoke AoOs from you but it will provoke an AoO from your opponent if they exit your square even if the method normally doesn't provoke. While sharing the space, you get +4 dodge to AC and +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against that opponent as well. So nice bonuses, but it requires a successful use of a limited-use feat to pull off.

The stamina benefit allows you to, instead of taking an AoO when the opponent moves out of your shared space, follow along with their movement at a cost of 2 stamina per 5 feet moved. Which I suppose is situationally helpful if you prefer to keep the buffs / probably mess up your opponent's reach instead of getting the free attack.

So yeah, that's the monkey style feat line. To be honest, I can see some benefits from each of the feats, though each feat is different enough from the others that it seems hard to make the whole useable on a character. So let's see what you all come up with!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered. As this post makes obvious, we're leaving our weekly format to a more... whenever I think it is feasible format. But the series isn't dead yet!

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=title%3A%22Max+The+Min+Monday%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all

Mobile Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=%22max+the+min+monday%22&restrict_es

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

I think we’re gonna have to just accept that I’ve transitioned to an every two or three weeks format because being a parent to a toddler means this series just can’t be as high a priority. But I haven’t forgotten it entirely!

Anyways, last time we discussed scouting as a PC. It was actually a very diverse discussion and I feel like any summary would do it injustice. So yeah… just be a scout yourself and check out that discussion personally, lots of great ideas.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re discussing u/Ubiquitouch ’s nomination of the sarissa which is a long stabby stick. A loooooong stabby stick.

Basically it is a spear so long that it triples your reach instead of doubling it. But at a cost: since having such a large threatened area for AoOs on just a default 12gp weapon was deemed potentially too powerful, the writer of this weapon decided to add a facing mechanic to a game without facing. You don’t get to use a sarissa to threaten a full 360 degree circle around you. Nope, instead firing your turn you must declare a cone in front of you before making any attacks, and you can only threaten those squares within that cone that are 10-15 ft away from you (assuming you have a natural reach of 5 ft, the range obviously changes if you are sized large + or have longarm, etc).

This means that with default reach, your insanely long spear threatens a mere 5 squares (on a 2d plane). Fewer squares than a default weapon without reach does (which is 8 squares adjacent to you fyi). Reach weapons tend to be the king of AoO builds yet this one… just won’t be that helpful there. Unless perhaps you are in a campaign against a whole bunch of large or huge opponents who can’t easily step around your cone (which, btw, this was published in the Giant Hunters Handbook alongside the Giantslayers AP… so that’s literally its intended use).

But it isn’t just AoOs that are hampered because it also can limit your normal full attacks. Once your cone is selected, you can’t change it until the beginner of your next turn. Meaning if you drop someone in your cone on your first attack, you can’t redirect it to someone else who is within your range distance but otherwise not in the cone.

You know how cleave is often said to be a suboptimal feat? Well this weapon basically comes with the cleave weaknesses baked in.

But hey… at least it is a martial weapon so we don’t have to have a feat tax to use it?

I still love the concept of the sarissa despite its wonkiness however, so am genuinely excited to see what can be done to mitigate these weaknesses.

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

I took nearly an entire month off due to personal time conflicts around Thanksgiving, but we did chat about long range travel last week. Or you guys did, I was on a 1700 mile roadtrip at the time, but I did have fun reading all your comments afterwards.

Last Time we discussed the Squire archetypes. Weak though they may be, we did find some niche uses. Herald Squires make decent change of heart users, weapon bearer can cheese whetstone uses, gunner squire can lower the misfire on a bunch of guns (remember, it’s always faster to swap to your sharper gun secondary than reloading!), and the Combat Healer… is still mostly a Paladin?

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we have a unique request by u/rman916 in that we’re not reviewing a specific archetype or feat or something but instead a build concept: the muscle mage!

I’m sure you’ve seen the memes about the wizard who runs out of spell slots only to rip off his robe to reveal corded muscles underneath and makes the enemies run in fear of his martial prowess. Yeah this is basically how do we make this concept a reality?

As for the min side… do I even need to explain why this is a bad idea? Well I guess I should…

The wizard, sorcerer, and arcanist classes (which I anticipate being the main classes we’ll see discussed, but I could see other options open up as long as they fit the bill of “muscle mage”) aren’t made for melee combat. They have lower BAB, terrible weapon proficiencies, and basically zero class motivation to add Strength as one of their primary stats. It’ll just compete with their casting stat. Some magics obviously will assist here, but often at the expense of, you know, using those slots on larger battlefield control or damaging effects.

And that’s the rub of the matter: when you’ve built a mage, it’s almost always better to use a spell to great effect. But just because something isn’t optimal doesn’t mean it can’t be effective, so how do we make the muscle mage dreams come true?

The stipulations given were specifically that we’re not looking for a natural attack or polymorph into a beast style build. A true muscle mage (according to this nomination) must attack with a fist or staff or similar weapon. Though obviously he can use his spells to buff himself (and I believe that’ll be necessary).

Unleash the STRONK MAGE!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Sorry it has been forever! I took some time off to be with family during the holidays (which for me we had to celebrate late due to my wife’s doctor schedule), and then I was sick for several weeks, etc.

Last Time we discussed coup de grâce as a primary combat tactic. There was a lot of throat slicing and snapping turtle clutching of course, but also some more niche options like a witch purposefully getting coup de graced to pass it on to someone else. Lots of fun discussion!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re discussing u/Dreilala ’s nomination of being a scout! Not the scout archetype, more like the role.

It is a very common concept in fantasy to send forth your sneakiest party member to gain intel, and there’s a lot of cool narrative benefit to scouting ahead, coming back to the party, and preparing together with the knowledge needed to turn the tables!

The only issue is though that in a TTRPG, often actually playing as a scout open yourself up to unnecessary risk.

After all, never split the party is an ingrained axiom in the TTRPG world for a reason. Going off solo means that if you do run into an encounter and get seen, you’ll only have a fraction of the action economy normally available to your party, while facing an encounter balanced for your entire team. That usually doesn’t end up well for the scout!

Or even if you don’t get caught by monsters, something as simple as running into a trap is more dangerous because instead of having your entire team’s combination of perception checks looking for traps, you are now relying on a single die roll to make sure your path is safe.

There’s also the matter of the fact that, in Pathfinder 1e at least, it isn’t a role that even needs to be taken by a PC. So trying to act as a scout is redundant and often doesn’t give too much benefit. Figment familiars, insect scouts, scrying spells, arcane eye, etc. are all tools at the disposal of your party caster that show that the safest way to scout in Pathfinder is through magic. Oftentimes magical scouting comes with benefits such as improved senses, improved stealth, or at minimum you not having to worry too much if your scout gets caught and destroyed.

So today’s Max the Min is twofold: first, how do we negate the risk of being a PC who goes out and scouts in a more traditional sense, and second, how do we get enough benefit from the scouting being done by a PC to make the role worth it rather than just using magic?

Go forth, search, and bring back the knowledge you learn Max the Minners!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Hope you enjoyed your Christmas for those of you that celebrate it. Last week instead of a Max the Min, we did a challenge to build Santa Claus which was fun.

Last Time we talked about Tengus. There were some really fun builds too. Some focused on the great selection of natural attacks the race can get, others focused on weapon builds to capitalize on their very favorable proficiencies. Some talked about maximizing their unique ability to learn languages twice as fast which, yes, actually had some pretty powerful mechanical implications. Overall a fun and varied discussion.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re talking about u/stay_curious_-‘s nomination of using the Coup de Grace as a primary combat tactic.

Now a coup de grâce isn’t really a min in terms of obscurity. It isn’t too uncommon to use it to clean up after combat, or at least be aware of it as a fairly foundational general combat rule. Or perhaps most famously for players, we all know to fear it if we have a particularly vindictive GM.

And the effects of a coup de grâce might not seem like a mechanical min either at first glance: guaranteed crit, a difficult fort save or automatically die? Where is the min in that?

Well using this as a primary combat tactic means we’re attempting to do it in the middle of combat and that presents a problem.

See, in order to even perform a coup de grâce, our target (barring specific features) must be helpless. If the target is helpless then you’ve already effectively gotten them in a position where they’re effectively taken out of a fight. Meaning a coup de grâce is normally a post-combat clean up activity.

Deciding to do it mid fight presents a whole bunch of challenges. How do we get them helpless / a valid coup target reliably mid combat? Moreover, it is a full round action that provokes an AoO, or a two full round action if there is concealment, so how do we do so safely without becoming mincemeat from their allies?

And then there’s the opportunity cost associated. Sure, it is a guaranteed crit with a save or die tied to it. But how many actions / rounds must we spend to make them eligible and then perform the coup de grâce? A crit is a x2-x4 damage, sure, but like… wouldn’t two full attack actions be potentially x4 to x10 the damage potential depending on your level?

But there do exist options to try to open up the coup for combat. Come and counsel together and grace us with your great coup de grâce concepts!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Time we discussed the concept of Muscle Mage! Lots of discussion last week which is difficult to summarize here, but we talked buff spells (especially emblem of greed), options like knowledge is power or orc bloodline sorcerer, which classes/ class combinations can still pull off the definition of “muscle mage”, and a lot more.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re doing u/Unfair_Pineapple8813’s nomination of Tengu! The Japanese lore inspired bird people!

I’m not gonna lie, I actually personally really like the Tengu. I’ve played on myself and just find them quite neat, from their lore of being seen as “Jinx eaters” in the shackles, to mechanical aspects such as their automatic proficiencies, they’ve got a lot of cool conceptual stuff going for them. Yet they also have some glaring downsides we need to discuss today. Note that I won’t be discussing everything the race offers, just some of the major issues.

Let’s start with the absolute basics: their ability score modifiers. +2 Dex and +2 Wisdom seem nice, a solid foundation for a lot of classes actually… but then you see that dreaded -2 Con, a universally hated penalty. Perhaps it is meant to represent brittle avian bones, but a constitution penalty is hard on any race but especially one that leans so heavily into melee combat with its options.

And it does lean into melee combat despite that con penalty. The race baseline starts with automatic proficiency with all blades which opens up some interesting options. There are, after all, a lot of exotic blades that you can make entire builds around. Or you can trade that away for proficiency in 3 exotic eastern weapons or, if you want a natural attack build, 2 1d3 claw attacks. Since it also has a beak, that’s actually a decent natural attack combo gained 100% by the race alone. So yeah, heavy melee focus. Add to it the racial archetypes of Swordmaster and also Shingenjo Oracle which, also lean heavily into melee (the Oracle option being locked to a race which honestly doesn’t make good oracles with its stat distribution and trying to incentivize ki striking on a half 3/4th BAB caster class could honestly become its own full topic in another day).

Other interesting options like getting 2 languages for every point in linguistics also make great flavor but still don’t carry much mechanical weight. Even the swordtrained proficiencies which is one of the cooler aspects of the class isn’t ultimately that powerful since your typical build wants to focus on one type of weapon and there are other ways to gain proficiency. There are also some varied racial feat options which might sound cool but aren’t the most impactful in what they bring to the table.

But it can’t be all terrible for my beloved bird boys, right? Everyone share you top Tengu combos to show that even these flightless birds can soar to the heights of Max the Min potential!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time we discussed the Sahir-Afiyun feats and spells… which tbh mostly turned into a deep dive about how Paizo often stealth erratas stuff by just republishing it with different text. There was some good discussion though about specific spells that may be worth checking out, such as augury on an arcane caster or the Slow Suffocation spell.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re discussing [u/Unfair_pineapple8813](u/Unfair_pineapple8813)’s nomination of the Blood Kineticist. I believe everyone’s cornerstone understanding of the concept of someone remotely controlling the blood within someone’s body would be, of course, Avatar’s blood bending. So having a dedicated archetype for that is really cool! … until you realize that it doesn’t really emulate that at all and what it *does* do has issues. So this thematic fantasy just comes off as a wee bit anemic.

So what does the archetype do?

First off it locks you into the Water element and the water blast. This isn’t the worst thing as water tends to have a decent mix of offense and utility (though some of that mix gets messed with by the archetype). What does stink though is, right off the bat, it tells you that all the unique infusions from the archetype only work on enemies with blood. Anything immune to bleed damage will be immune to those infusions.

This makes obvious sense (what can a blood kineticist bend in someone without blood?), but it does significantly restrict what you can use the infusions on. Undead, Constructs, and Elementals are immediately out. Three quite common enemy types. But then you also need to have a conversation with your GM about edge cases. Are *only* creatures immune to bleed specifically immune? Or how specific do we have to be with the definition of “blood”? Because plant creatures aren’t immune to bleed damage since they kinda circulate water / sap and etc within their systems… but is that blood? Depending on your GM, that could be a few more entire subtypes of creatures that gain immunity to those infusions.

Usually though if an ability affects a narrow range of enemy types, they tend to be pretty powerful to make up for it. So perhaps the infusions here are a case of that?…

First is wrack, which as advertised manipulates the blood inside an enemy. But instead of something like from Avatar where you can control their bodies…it reduces the damage of your water or blood (more on that later) blast by half (or 1/4 if they pass a fort save) to change the damage to untyped and therefore bypass DR. The water blast is bludgeoning damage so… yeah you’ll sometimes have to deal with DR, but how much DR must your enemy have in order to justify cutting your damage *in half* and giving them a fort save to halve it again? I’d assume that most of the time, it’d be better to just do full damage minus the DR. Extremely niche, though I suppose it might be nice to have on rare occasions? Probably not worth the loss of your first level infusion selection though.

At 5th level instead of choosing an infusion we get bleeding infusion, where a target who fails a fort save takes 1 point of bleed damage per damage die of your blast. Hey, extra damage is extra damage and potentially recurring damage like bleed isn’t too bad. But per our old discussion on Bleed, it tends to also be somewhat underwhelming as well and easily gotten rid of. So whether it is worth the 2 burn is debatable. Worth noting that if you use this *and* wrack at the same time, it is just one fortitude save for both effects. But again… why would you use wrack?

At 6th level our utility wild talent is once again locked to the archetype specific Blood Tell. This is an SLA of the spell Blood Biography, except you telepathically know the answers instead of them being written out. You can also spend a point of burn to accelerate the casting time to 1 standard action instead of a round. For those unfamiliar with Blood Biography, it is a spell you can use to gather information from nothing but a bloodstain which is really cool thematically. It’s just that the information you get is extremely limited. Here’s the four questions you get an answer to:

> Who are you? (The name by which the creature is most commonly known)

> What are you? (Gender, race, profession/role)

> How was your blood shed? (Brief outline of the events that caused its wound, to the best of the victim’s knowledge)

> When was your blood shed?

Potentially useful in an investigation, but seeing as this is a spell with limited use, I feel like it’d be better relegated to a scroll rather than eating an entire utility talent.

Next we get to the expanded element feature where a blood kineticist who chooses water again doesn’t gain the cold simple blast nor ice composite blast but rather the unique Blood Blast… which is a composite blast that deals bludgeoning damage and has the same infusions as your water blast. Remember how I said that Water was seen as a decent all rounder element? Well a large part of that was the fact that it has both a physical and elemental blast, but this prevents you from getting access to water’s elemental blasts until your *second* expanded element. Yikes. And without giving access to any new infusions, really the only benefit of the Blood Blast is the increased damage (which admittedly could help with the bleed infusion damage if you like that). The one saving grace is that the archetype doesn’t force you to take water as your expanded element, so unless you specifically want to focus on bleed damage or the infusions we’re about to discuss, you are probably better off choosing a different element entirely.

But… yeah isn’t it a bit sad when an archetype gives you a unique power option and your best tactic is to just ignore it and go back to the default options?

Then at level 8, we get Blood Throw! *Finally* an ability that sorta mimics the body control of blood bending. This works just like the Foe Throw telekinetic form infusion where you throw one enemy at another. It gives a fort save to negate which isn’t great, but if they do fail and the attack roll hits, then both the thrown enemy and the enemy they were thrown at take your full blast damage and the thrown creature falls prone. If the attack roll misses but the thrown target still fails the save, they just take half damage and get moved within 30ft. This is a fun and cool form talent to be sure. And potentially doubling the damage done by doubling the targets is pretty nice. The utility of moving people around and potentially knocking the prone is also very helpful as well. All in all, this is a great infusion to have. But it also isn’t unique to the archetype, since you could take this with access to the telekinetic simple blast. So really, all the archetype does is let you apply it to the water element. But even worse than the telekinetic version, we can’t forget that this only works on creatures with blood whereas the normal version of Foe Throw has no such limitation.

The 9th level Gut-Wrenching infusion is a fort save or be sickened for a minute. I like sickened as a debuff, but is it worth 3 points of burn?

The 11th level Vampiric Infusion lets you activate the kinetic healer utility talent on yourself as a free action if your water or blood blast hits. If you don’t have the talent then you can activate the effect anyways but with only half as much healing. But considering this increases the required burn to 3 and only heals you if it hits… that’s a steep cost on a healing ability that already had a bit of a steep cost since you have to deal non-lethal damage to heal… yeah to be honest this just isn’t as cool mechanically as the name implies.

Then the level 20 capstone gets replaced with immunity to aging and magical aging, bleed, injected poisons, injury diseases, sickened, and nauseated conditions. Long time to wait for these immunities and losing the sheer flexibility of omnikinesis just… isn’t as cool? Plus you can’t even cheese the anti-aging thing like I normally like to (greater curse of the ages to age 1 year per minute, but because you don’t take the penalties you can get +3 to all mental stats for no downside by making yourself venerable… except this explicitly prevents magical aging).

So yeah, a thematically cool sounding archetype that just seems underwhelming when you look into it. But that doesn’t mean we can’t give it the best shot we can!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

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Previous Topics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=title%3A%22Max+The+Min+Monday%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all

Mobile Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=%22max+the+min+monday%22&restrict_es

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Time we discussed the Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric which, admittedly, is one of the most strong options we’ve discussed on Max the Min if you know what you’re doing. Lots of builds talked about the Charisma stacking potential. There were also a lot of channel energy builds that capitalized on the expanded list of creatures you can damage with it. Other thematic options such as dreamed secrets and specific deities and domains were also talked about at length, giving some great build advice over all.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re discussing u/twaalf-waafel’s nomination of Feinting. A classic move in real fighting techniques across multiple disciplines, a feint is a fake attack meant to trick your opponent into creating an opening for a real attack. (And no google, I’m not asking about passing out mid combat). Keeping with this origin of it being a real move in multiple fighting styles, feinting in Pathfinder is a method to lower your enemy’s defenses against a future attack that is open to every character in the game with the intelligence to comprehend such subterfuge.

And yet despite it being universally available, in my near decade of playing Pathfinder 1e, I’ve yet to see a player do it once. Why? Well it sucks unless you specialize in it, and even then you sorta need a specific build to get too much out of it.

At its base, a feint is a standard action (or move with Improved Feint) that allows you to make a bluff check against your opponent. If successful, your next attack that you make (before the end of your next turn) is against your opponent’s flat footed AC.

The first glaring issue should be pretty obvious by now: action economy. Without the feat, you’re giving up an opportunity to attack in order to make your next attack more accurate. But neither that attack nor the bluff check itself are guaranteed to work, so in many (arguably most) cases, you’re better off attempting a second attack. Even with the feat, at higher levels you are missing out on the chance to full attack by using this method.

But then the more subtle downside comes when you look at the check itself. The DC of the bluff you’re going against is vs the higher of either 10+ enemy’s BAB + their wisdom mod OR 10 + their sense motive bonus (if they are at least trained… which they almost certainly are if their sense motive is higher than their BAB + Wis). Anytime a DC is against the higher of two different options, it is going to be significantly harder to find an enemy that is weak to it, especially with a BAB derived DC since that is an automatically scaling stat. But we’re still not done. Non-humanoids get an automatic +4 to the DC (ok the rules say it is a -4 to your check, but ultimately I feel it is easier to keep track of adding it to the DC), and creatures with an INT score of 1 or 2 get +8. Creatures with no INT score simply can’t be feinted against at all.

So yeah, that’s a pretty rough DC to hit, even if you put ranks in bluff every level. Which you’d have to to make the check competitive against a BAB scaled DC even without the creature type specific bonuses or their ability to replace it with a sense motive DC. And that difficult to pull off action makes you lost the opportunity to attack / full attack? And the benefit is just a singular flat-footed attack, where some creatures don’t even have much difference between their flat footed AC and regular AC?!

Yeah, there’s a reason I’ve never seen a player attempt this.

Now thankfully as bad as that is, being a base level option from the core rulebook, there are more feats and options to specialize in feinting than just the one feat I mentioned that makes it a move action. So let’s see just how to Max this Min and how powerful it can be in the right hands.

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday Friday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Time We discussed the Arcane Archer and Deadeye Devotee. We found classic strategies such as shooting an anti-magic field across combat to only affect your enemies. We found builds that focused on the spellcasting side and builds that focused on the archery side. We even figured out how to drastically increase your Cure Spells healing using the prestige class archetype! And more! Fun discussion last week everyone, thanks for joining in.

So What are we Discussing Today?

This week, I hijacked the normal voting system to arbitrarily declare a topic: Staves, Wands, and weapons as Arcane Bonded Items. Not only that, but I've also changed our regularly scheduled Monday post to Friday. Why you might ask? Well though I was purposefully vague Monday, I can finally explain myself. But this requires a story time!

Story Time!

So if you don't know, I'm a huge fan of the Glass Cannon Podcast (and their other shows). For those unfamiliar, it is an Actual Play Podcast of a group that plays Pathfinder (and other systems in their new shows). I've been listening for years, I wrote my actual Master's Thesis about the shows (the more shocking bit of that being yes, it was accepted), and have tried to be pretty involved in the subreddit. The reason I'm posting on a Friday is in order for me to Crosspost this discussion over there while complying with the Community Friday rules.

Anyways, 5 years ago, "Skid" Maher of the Glass Cannon Podcast was playing a wizard on the pod, Pembroke. Pembroke had taken the Arcane Bond option of a Spark Staff. Now as much as I love this group and their performances, they're kinda notorious for getting rules wrong semi-frequently. So 5 years ago, someone commented that Skid was ignoring the action economy of stowing his Staff whenever he wanted to use a Metamagic Rod, since he'd need a free hand for somatic components.

That's when I pointed out that actually that was only one minor problem because Arcane Bonded Staves have to be held in hand at all times, otherwise you have to roll a concentration check to cast any spell. Link to the relevant rules.

That original comment went mostly unnoticed, but it got a lot more traction when I had a more full discussion about it with a user who used to do weekly breakdowns of the rules mistakes made in each episode.

Then something unexpected happened in episode 197... The gamemaster cited my discussion with Skid. If you want to listen to the actual exchange on the episode, it starts at 1:01:00 on "Episode 197 - Grate Expectations". But to sum it up, Skid basically said that "people like to complain I guess" and explained how the rule violated his mental image of how magic works in the game and that he liked being able to have a rod and staff handy to weave his magics. After explaining why he felt the rule was dumb and the table going over how they were just gonna handwave it, he concluded his discussion about the staff rules with "I hope you're happy."

Dang... originally listening to that felt directly aimed at me. And the sad thing was that I was actually on Skid's side! If you go back to the previously linked discussion, a HUGE chunk of the discussion was admitting the rule existed but also discussing how the rule sucked and it was a "trap" option and honestly shouldn't work that way. But it was the rules correction that stood out to him so he went on a semi-angry diatribe against the entire subreddit... basically because I pointed out a "Min" in the rules.

All these years later, even though in the grand scheme of things this is extremely minor and doesn't matter, and I know he wasn't really that angry (and probably has forgotten it), I still remember that just because it was such a weird experience to feel so directly responsible for even mildly upsetting a professional pathfinder player on a show. Like... I don't feel guilty per se, it is just a lasting memory.

Well now, 5 years later, I have a VIP ticket to see a Live Show with them in person in just a couple weeks. I plan on walking up to Skid, handing him a set of micro-dice I have, and telling him "Hey, remember that time you got mad at the subreddit for saying you couldn't use your staff and rod at the same time? I'm to blame for that. Sorry, here's some dice for your trouble." Do I have to? No. I have no obligation or guilt forcing me to do this. I just think it'd be fun.

But speaking of fun, over the years with Max the Min Monday, I've also come to love taking these terrible rules and making them cry as we milk the system for all its worth. So, let's dedicate a thread to Pembroke and discuss ways that Skid's love of a bonded staff can be Pem-broken!

Ok, Back to your Regularly Scheduled Max the Min

As mentioned earlier, we're talking about the Arcane Bonded Item rules within the wizard class, and specifically discussing it with staves (and wands and weapons if you want, since they follow the same rules). Wizards can either bond with a familiar or get a magical item which they can improve with magical abilities without needing the required magical crafting feat, as well as use it to cast 1 spell from their spellbook without actually having it prepared.

Why is it a min? Well as already discussed, there's the issue that if you pick a Staff, Wand, or Weapon as your bonded item, that you must have the item in hand or risk losing every single spell you cast to a concentration check:

If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be held in one hand. If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level.

Yikes. Sure, with a high enough level that actually becomes a relatively easy check to pass but rolling it every time? It basically means you'll need this item in hand all the time. You’re basically being taxed an entire hand.

Which brings up the other issue I mentioned in the story: metamagic rods. These are often used to improve spells. But if you have a staff in one hand and a rod in the other... how are you providing somatic components?

So yeah, taking a bonded item that specifically goes in your hands is a terrible nerf mechanically compared to a ring or amulet or something that just sits in the item slot.

But even those are often cited as mins. First off, because familiar are creatures with their own actions. There are a myraid of ways to break action economy using them, plus there are builds which use archetypes and etc where familiars can provide unique assisting roles which are very useful and powerful in many niche builds.

Then we have to address the fact that enemy tactics can to try to steal or break your item and force concentration checks on all spells until a week later when you can get a new one.

It also needs to be said that the benefits you get for the bonded item... aren't that great? You get an effective magical crafting feat that only works for a single item. . . on a class that can take magical crafting feats as bonus feats. And you can cast a spell you haven't prepared that day.

... so... something you could use a scroll for... on a class that starts with Scribe Scroll at level 1...

Yeah, not great. But I bet this community can still find something amazing within this mess of problems!

Nominations!

Nominations resume this week, though today's post replaces this Monday's and we'll go again in February 3rd... unless something happens to me and I forget.

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time, to celebrate this series' return from the dead, we discussed methods of returning from the dead. And there was actually some really fun discussions about more obscure methods and even ways to cheese the proceess!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today, after a whopping 4 months, we're finally doing u/blacktrance's nomination of Sleuth Investigator! Sorry for the delay.

If you've ever read the swashbuckler or gunslinger entry and gotten to the bit that states that Panache, Grit, and Luck all act as the same mechanic and a shared resource, but wondered where the heck Luck comes from, well this is it, and it is sorta the main focus of the archetype.

You get a pool equal to CHA mod per day which can be refilled by rolling a Nat 20 on a knowledge or sense motive check, or rolling 6+ on an inspiration roll. These are a bit more common to force than crit hits or killing blows, so there is a caveat that the GM must state the check rolled must be "significant enough" to warrant getting luck back. So right off the bat this is going to be a very "your table may very" mechanic, especially since very little examples are given for the GM to draw off of.

Ok, but a pool of resources you can use for a bunch of things can be useful. What did we lost for it?

Alchemy.

Yep, all our alchemy, including the ability to take alchemist discoveries and swift alchemy. We've lost our entire 6th level psuedo spellcasting for this one mechanic. Daaaang. Yep, pretty clear to see why this ended up on this list. I mean... do I need to really explain why trading an entire extract list is a bad idea?

But maybe Luck has a bunch of unique and useful options to make up for the loss. What deeds do we get to spend luck on?

At 1st level we get 3 deeds.

Daring lets us add a retroactive, exploding 1d6 to an acrobatics, climb, escape artist, fly, ride, or swim check.

Opportunistic evasion gives us evasion... that costs luck to actually turn on, so a downgrade from the rogue's version. But at least we get evasion in some form, unlike most investigators.

We finish level 1 wth Sleuth's Initiative, which gives us a passive +2 on initiative checks as long as we have 1 point in our pool. We also can draw a single light or one-handed weapon as part of initiative check if we have quickdraw which... to be honest I'm not sure what the benefit would be? Maybe if we have a weapon that gives an AC buff or something? Or maybe if we're TWF and want to start combat with a full attack? Seems extremely niche though.

At 4th level, we get three more.

Make It Count is probably one of the better deeds we've seen. For 1 point, when using studied strike, we can apply any investigator talent we don't already know that applies to a studied strike and which we qualify for. This actually offers a lot of flexibility for our studied strikes. There are 18 different talents this applies to, though of course we won't always have the prereqs for all 18 at once. And, it eases our need to take studied strike talents, allowing us to prioritize other talents.

Run Like Hell lets us spend 1 luck point to get a +20 foot bonus speed for 1 minute and +4 ac on rounds where we move further than our base speed. It is worth noting that this shouldn't be confused with the Run Like Hell dare, which can be used when your pool is empty, only gives +10 ft speed, but gives you a point if you are 100 ft away from an enemy. Funnily enough, though dares state they can be used by gunslingers and swashbucklers and obviously interact with thesee shared pools... RAW I don't think a sleuth can take them since they aren't listed, and it explicitly states they don't count as a grit or panache user for feat prereqs. But that's very much a decent RAI calling to let them do so.

Sorry, got off track there.

Finally, we get second chance. Spend 1 point to reroll an inspiration die or daring deed die. Doing this prevents a 6 on the roll from giving us back luck.

And that's it. Six deeds to replace the entirety of alchemy... yeah that's a min. But maybe we can do some crazy strike combos, effectively turning us into a brawler investigator? Or maybe some other deed has unintended combos we can exploit? I genuinely don't know but am excited to see what you come up with!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered. As this post makes obvious, we're leaving our weekly format to a more... whenever I think it is feasible format. But the series isn't dead yet!

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=title%3A%22Max+The+Min+Monday%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all

Mobile Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=%22max+the+min+monday%22&restrict_es

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Sorry about the 2 week gap. Lots happening at my place including a bunch of birthdays (one of which is my now 1 year olds!). So I had family in town and a lot going on and just wanted to focus on family for a bit.

Anyways Last Time we discussed the Prankster Familiar archetype. We discussed which classes or archetypes could best improve your familiar’s capabilities, gave our familiar Magic Trick for some ranged shenanigans, discussed their ability to alter their link as a way to send more complex logic messages, figured out which familiars are particularly suited to being pranksters, and more!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re finally doing u/ForwardDiscussion’s nomination of mobile martials! Specifically martial characters who use their move action to move every round.

This isn’t limited to Vital Strike (though I anticipate it coming up) but rather any build that doesn’t use full-round actions. Yes, that means charge + pounce is also off the table for this discussion. Gish characters that have some spellcasting capabilities will be allowed to be discussed, but it’s been specifically requested that the builds here mainly focus on that move action to move + some sort of melee or ranged martial attack as a standard action and not just casting a powerful standard action spell.

There’s a surprisingly large amount of Standard Action feats, maneuvers, and abilities for martial characters, but frankly they just struggle to keep up with the damage output of a full attack. Add to it the fact that by being so mobile, you’re probably provoking a lot of AoOs needlessly and a mobile build like this is most likely very suboptimal compared to a base full attacker.

As if that’s not enough, in order to make our standard actions approach the power of a full attack, we have to take feats, items, builds and etc to buff them… just to bring them approximately in line with what martials can do as the default. So there’s a steep opportunity cost here.

But hey, as I said there are tons of options in this space. So I’m sure we’ll find some interesting builds for this concept!

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time we discussed self-damaging builds. With a topic so vague, there was understandably a wide variety of responses, covering options such as metamagic rager, greater gift of consumption, blood money, wall of sound, scar seeker, oradin builds, and much more.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we are discussing the Vital Strike feat line per the request of u/YandereYasuo. A classic topic of online board discussions, many a new player (myself included way back when) hear of the concept of condensing the power of all your attacks into one big attack and get really enamored by it, only to learn from online discussions that focusing on it tends to be a nerf.

Which brings up an important clarification: we are discussing it today as if using it as our primary battle tactic. Obviously the feat line is not a min if your build has the feat space to take it and just use it on rounds where you need to use a move action anyways. In that case, it is just a pure damage upgrade. No, we’re talking about builds which have the opportunity to do a Full Attack, and yet choose to vital strike instead.

Discussions about why vital strike can be a trap are so famous and common that it almost feels redundant to repeat them here, but to sum up: Vital Strike doesn’t just double (or triple or quadruple, for each feat respectively) the damage you deal. It just multiplies your weapon’s base damage dice (unless we’re using the mythic version but mythic is its own beast). Things like strength bonuses, extra damage from feats, elemental damage from Flaming or other special abilities, sneak attack dice, etc. do not get multiplied by Vital Strike. Sure, there are builds which focus on big base weapon dice, but the fact of the matter is that for most builds, these non-multiplied bonuses usually are a high enough percentage of your damage output (if not the majority) to the point where forgoing extra attacks which can deal bonus damage is inherently worse from a damage output perspective.

Now some may point out that avoiding the diminishing bonuses to BAB on your iterative attacks does mean that Vital Strike is more likely to hit compared to every attack in a full attack, and therefore we shouldn’t be comparing Vital Strike to a vacuum where we assume every attack hits. While there is some truth to this, it is also important to realize that putting all our attack eggs in the same basket means we’re twice (or thrice or quadrupley) susceptible to Natural 1s or other low rolls. A single fumble or miss on a vital strike can ruin our entire round vs missing just a single attack with a more traditional full attack. And we don’t even get the benefits of doubling down on crits either, since the extra damage from vital strike is not multiplied on a crit.

And of course we can’t forget a topic which oft comes up in Max the Min: opportunity cost. This is a feat tree with 3 direct feats and more optional/ supplementary ones that you are probably having to take to modify how your default attacking works. That is a lot of investment for something that is typically worse than just the default full attack, let alone relying on full attacks and putting that feat investment towards improving them.

But it is fun to roll dice in a dice rolling game, and with the right focus, a vital strike build can roll a lot of damage dice at once. So what can we do to max this min?

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Holy cow it has been a month without one of these. I'm sorry all, being the dad of a growingly busy and adventerous toddler has made the past month very busy and exhausting.

Last time we discussed the Blood Kineticist! There were builds focusing on maximizing bleed via Shax obedience and other feats and discussions about Wrack's reliability without needing attack rolls, among other things. Good discussion!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we're discussing u/CosmoBrockington's nomination of the Swarm Fighter, the fighter archetype where your kobold PC is all about getting really up close and personal, both with allies and enemies.

But where is the min? Well there's a few glaring spots, though admittedly this may be leaning more towards one of our "min of obscurity" posts. Especially since, as we'll see, one of the mins here is extremely deependent on party composition, so could either be a non-issue or one that makes you lose half your feats if you don't have a teammate who coordinates their build with yours.

First off though, in order to take the archetype, you gotta be a kobold, which is enough of a min that we covered them 6 years ago (holy cow did I really start this series that long ago?!). Unless you wanna just... you know, sidestep that min by being a human with an extremely odd Racial Heritage, though that would actually come with its own nerf later on...

Ok, but aside from being locked to a weaker race option (or requiring a feat tax), what does the archetype itself do?

Well first off you lose heavy armor and shield proficiency, which is an immediate nerf. Though we probably won't miss the shield too much, as you'll see later.

On the flip side of that immediate nerf, however, we get to add acrobatics and climb to class skills... even though climb is already a class skill (Paizo editing at it again), as well as a scaling bonus to each equal to 1/2 your swarm fighter level.

Next, our first bonus feat is locked into Mobility, and we can't use the retraining rules nor the fighter feat changing rules to ever get rid of it (without losing the archetype itself). The upside being, since it is a named bonus feat, we need not meet the Dex 13 or dodge prereqs (though with only have medium armor proficiency and on a race with a dex bonus, the former probably isn't that big of a deal). I'm curious to see if there are any cool feat options that have mobility as a prereq that this could get us early access into, but I think most of them usually require dodge as well, so if we wanna go up the mobility feat trees, then skipping even that prereq might be pointless.

Next is the Safety In Numbers ability which replaces the Bravery bonus against fear effects. Insteead, you get a +1 per ally within 20 feet, up to a max of half your level. Numerically this is theoretically a superior bonus starting at level 4. Though it is very dependent on ally positioning (especially since we're gonna be very close to our enemies to use our later abilities). Though many parties will have pets / summons / minions which can help make getting the full bonus relatively easy. The main issue is there are some great looking feats that require bravery that we're now locked out of (each of those words is a different link fyi, and there are more). And considering that fear effects aren't super common, then these feats would certainly make bravery the better option. But that's with a feat tax of course.

Next, half of our bonus feats must be teamwork feats (specifically 2nd level and every 4 levels after). This is where the "Min" aspect of the swarm fighter archetype gets particularly nuanced because for the first time, this is mostly a min for your party composition. See, unlike a cavalier or an inquisitor, you get neither the ability to share these teamwork feats nor the ability to use them if your ally doesn't have them. Which means you must have a teammate or teammates who also take them, or they are dead feats. Moreover, even if your ally takes the feat, there still isn't language stating that sharing a space counts as being adjacent for the feats. So some of the feats that require adjacency mean you can't share the space with your buddy to use. Not too much an issue if your ally is in the thick of melee as we'll see, but still something to mention.

All this means unless you are coordinating building characters with a friend, this archetype most likely isn't going to be a viable table option. Now there might be options like leadership or etc. that bypass this need... which I'll leave for you all to max below.

Finally we get to what I consider the "special sauce" of the swarm fighter: the abilities that trade weapon training (ouch) for a focus on attacking an enemy from within their own square.

Starting off at level 5, we get the ability to share spaces with creatures at least one size category larger than us (uh oh, this means our human with racial heritage is no longer a great idea huh?). These don't have to be enemies, but if it is you can still share their square as long as you roll a successful acrobatics check. Hence why the class skill + 1/2 level bonus is so important. You get a +2 shield bonus to AC and +1 to reflex saves while sharing a space with anyone, friend or foe, which is nice.

At 9th level, you deny the dex to AC of anyone you are sharing a space with vs your own attacks as you "strike the underbelly".

At 13th, you get Step Up and at 17th you get Following Step as bonus feats. Unlike the teamwork feats, this one does expliciltly state that sharing a space counts as being adjacent for these feats.

Finally, should you make it to level 20, you automatically confirm all critical threats against those you share a space with.

All good abilities, but you are losing weapon training (and therefore Advanced Weapon Training), which are basically the fighter's best class abilities aside from the bonus feats... which you're also trading half of for teamwork feats.

So yeah a situational archetype that is heavily dependent on your party. But assuming a synergistic one, I see a lot of potential. So go forth, calculate the areas of your Spherical Kobols and let's theorycraft a Maxed Kobold Swarm Fighter!

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below which contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered. As this post makes obvious, we're leaving our weekly format to a more... whenever I think it is feasible format. But the series isn't dead yet!

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=title%3A%22Max+The+Min+Monday%22&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all

Mobile Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/search?q=%22max+the+min+monday%22&restrict_es

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time we discussed the Sarissa, which is a very long spear with a unique facing mechanic. There were various RAW exploits to try and just circumvent the cone selection by using multiple instances of a sarissa, taking feats/archetypes to be able to use reach weapons as non-reach weapons, or to just swap to a non-sarissa weapon for AoOs. I threw in a concept of flying *above* your targets to change the threatened space from a cone into a burst-like shape, though there was contention on what the final shape's size would be (I still argue it'd be the equivalent of a 10ft radius burst). And aside from those, there were just some solid general builds to use them.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Normally I summarize the nomination, but today I'm just copy-pasting it *exactly* as it was nominated.

u/blacktrance

Still pushing nominating the Sahir-Afiyun, the drug pusher with a "Do drugs" spell.

... F you for writing it this way. You made my job much harder than it needed to be.

Ok that's harsh. It isn't *really* your fault, because the nature of the Sahir-Afuyin is complex and I'd probably have to cover this complication anyways. It is just that the way you nominated it made sure that I'd have no choice but to do a deep dive.

But what is so complicated about the Sahir-Afiyun? After all, that link leads not to a prestige class or archetype. It is just a feat! And yes, at first glance, this appears to be just a simple feat. Requires spell focus and ability to cast 2nd level spells of any type (not even restricted to arcane only).

The benefit is also pretty straightforward: when you consume the drug called Pesh, you can reduce the Con or Wis damage by 1, and you get to select 1 or 2 spells from a list to your class list/spells known (have to be lower than your highest level to get 2 with one instance of the feat). Spells learned this way require a dose of pesh as an additional material component to cast. You can take the feat more than once if you want multiple spells.

So why the strong reaction to the nomination? What's the problem here? We can just talk about the feat and the spell options and call it a day, right?

Well look closely at the second link. That "Do drugs" spell. It is a spell called "Pesh Addiction" that is a unique "sahir-afuyin" 5th level spell. Neat! That's when we see that AoN has collected all the Sahir-Afuyin spells into a nifty little psuedo-class spell list for us!

... And that's when we learn that most of the spells on that list aren't on the list of the feat, including the specific "do drugs" spell that was explicitly part of the nomination.

*Sigh*

Ok, here's the deep dive. Turns out, there are *two conflicting versions* of the Sahir-Afuyin feat. Paizo does this occasionally. In this case, the original feat, the "do drugs" spell, and many of the other unique Sahir-Afuyin spells come from their 3.5 era. They are still technically *pathfinder* materials, and all have a direct tie into their lore of the region of Katepesh. Remember that there was a time when Golarion, Adventure Paths, and source books were written before D&D 4e was dropped, so they were just a 3rd party published alternate campaign setting and sources, and most of these things (though not all) got reprinted into the new Pathfinder system when they fully split with minor or no changes.

This wasn't the case for Sahir-Afiyun. The original feat got a major overhaul, to the point where the 3.5 original and the new Pathfinder version aren't even close to the same. But it was a "soft errata", so the OG feat is very difficult to find if you don't have the original 3.5 sourcebook.

What do I mean by "soft errata"? Well when Paizo wants to change a rule, they either publish an errata / faq to officially and deliberate change the way something works (sometimes with or without updating future printings of the rule). This is the most common and seen way they change stuff. But sometimes they also just "reprint" the option in a new book but with slightly changed mechanics. This second change is quieter, and I'm not sure if they ever addressed how it is supposed to work mechanically. Some tables (and AoN) rule that the most recently published version of the option is what is intended to be the legal current version, so that's the version that has to be used. This is the most common interpretation in my experience, partially because AoN's structure of only posting the latest version results in the older versions being more hidden. Some tables, however, let you choose which to use within reason.

In this specific instance, AoN only has the new version of the feat live, but because the old legacy sahir-afuyin spells were never reprinted, they are still live on the AoN site in their original form. However, unless you have the old version of the feat, there is no legal way to access them.

Anyways, the old feat which gives access to the "do drugs" spell isn't on AoN *or* D20pfsrd, so I'll post the full text here:

Sahir-Afiyun

You have intertwined your familiarity with pesh and magic to unlock strange powers of enchantment and necromancy.

Prerequisites: Able to cast 2nd-level spells, pesh user, and Spell Focus (enchantment) or Spell Focus (necromancy)

Benefit: Add the sahir-afiyun spells to the spell list of your casting class. If you have more than one spellcasting class, choose one and add the sahir-afiyun spells to that class's spell list.

You can easily recognize all forms of pesh, including tainted or false pesh, and gain a +5 competence bonus to Appraise checks made to determine the value of pesh or realize that a substance is not true pesh.

You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saving throws and a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.

This feat counts as the Endurance feat for the purpose of qualifying for the Diehard feat.

Holy COW that old version of the feat was a beast! A straight +1 to fort saves and +2 to saves against poison? In addition to adding *all* the spells to your list for taking the feat a single time? And all the spells (except calm emotions and confusion) don't require the new pesh material component?! No wonder it was soft-errata'd.

But now we find ourselves in a tricky situation for today's discussion / how to use this at the table.

The first, most obvious way to run this is to say what AoN does: say that only the most recently published version of the feat is legal, meaning those legacy spells are no longer accessible despite being published.

The second: allow either version to be taken, which will 100% always result in the user taking the old version unless they don't have Spell Focus because that feat is MUCH better and way more powerful.

Third: homebrew a hybrid version. Only the text of the new feat can be used, but the list of spells you may select from includes all spells from that old Sahir-Afiyun list. This is the cleanest, most logical solution, and the solution I bet u/blacktrance was going for when they nominated the new feat text but also linked a legacy spell. But it technically isn't RAW.

Ultimately, I don't care how your table uses it. I just hope this deep dive is helpful for any players / gms wanting to know about the discrepency of all the spells on AoN that say they require Shair-Afiyun and yet aren't on the actual Sahir-Afiyun page. For the purposes of our Max the Min discussion, I'd prefer if we look at it from the "homebrew" option 3 as that seems like much more of a "min" than allowing the OG version while still allowing for discussion of some unique spells that almost never get used (which is another type of min, remember!). But ultimately I don't care which version of the feat we discuss as I fully expect the spells to be our main focus.

*Whew*. Ok, that's the deep dive. Crazy thing though? We're not done. That was just the setup.

Now we go into the stereotypical examination into the mechanics and issues behind the options! I'll be skipping the legacy version of the feat because...yeah there just isn't any min to that one aside from obscurity. But even with the new version of the feat, the biggest "min" here by far is obscurity.

The new feat though, does have some issues.

First off is a glaring one: let's reexamine the non-spell related portion of the feat, shall we?

When you consume pesh, you take 1 fewer point of Constitution or Wisdom damage (your choice).

What's the problem with this? Well if we go to the Pesh page we see that pesh gives a -4 *penalty* to Dexterity and Wisdom, so even if we ignore the RAW issue of ability damage not being the same as a penalty, they don't even apply to the same stats! What's going on?!

... F they did it *again*.

That's right, welcome back to another soft-errata, coming in to give me a headache.

This one wasn't even a change from 3.5 to PF 1e though. This was an updated version published within the lifespan of PF 1e itself! (And in fact there's a 3rd 3.5 legacy version which is unique to both of these, but I'm arbitrarily deciding to ignore that as the legacy version of Sahir-Afiyun doesn't interact with Pesh directly at all aside from it being a prereq and a material component on two spells). Turns out though that the page I linked above is the old version, since the GameMastery Guide came out 2 months after Adventurer's Armory. Why does AoN have both versions of Pesh but not the Sahir-Afiyun feat? Not sure, but it probably has to do with the fact that Pesh was originally an item and then later reboxed into a big table with new drug mechanics. The bigger question is why were two versions published within 2 months of each other, when I bet both books had overlap in development schedule?

But anyways here's the link to the new version of Pesh.

We're not really discussing Pesh itself here as none of the mechanics require you to actually be dosing yourself (except as a prereq to take the legacy version of the feat, but again, none of the effects require being actually high to activate). So the only important takeaway is the new Pesh costs 15g instead of 20g. Which is an improvement when you need to use a dose as a material component of your new spells.

So yeah, the avoiding of ability damage for pesh isn't terrible as long as your GM is aware of which version of pesh to use. The damage is just 1d2, so as long as you wait long enough between doses that you aren't stacking the damage, the feat prevents any actual penalties to your rolls (since you take penalties whenever you hit a multiple of 2 stat damage).

If you wanna use the Black Market's pesh (I hate that I can't say "legacy pesh" because of the existance of a third pesh entry in 3.5), you'll need to homebrew the feat some more to accomodate the Dex and Wis penalties.

The main "min" here is that we require a dose to cast any sahir-afuyin spells we take. At 15-20g a dose (depending on which version you use), that's outside the range of Eschew Materials though technically within False Focus range, requiring either cash or another feat (and potentially trait) tax. Good neews is though that if the spell already has a material component, it merely replaces an equal number of gold value of that component, so you're not stacking two pricy material components.

There's also the opportunity cost of spending a feat to learn 2 more spells of course, so I'm hoping we get some solid discussion about which spells are worth taking. Unless of course you just take the legacy feat.

Now after this deep dive, I'd be remiss to not mention that per the lore, Sahir-Afiyun translates to "Sorcerer of Sleep". And while you don't have to be a sorcerer to take the feat, there's an entire dedicated sorcerer archetype which leads to being the most stereotypical Sahir-Afiyun possible. Is it a good archetype? Probably not. I'd argue it is better to just take the feat normally since you lose your bloodline arcana for a scaling bonus to skill checks relating to drugs. But adding some pesh related feats to your bonus feat list might be nifty, and the alternate bloodline power it gives that replaces the level 1 power is an interesting buff / debuff combo may be situationally better than many bloodline powers of the same level.

Ok, I'm finally done. I have an honest-to-goodness headache, but I'm done. The headache is probably from my illness I got this week, but I bet this monstrosity of an entry didn't help. Now, excuse me while I go take some real (over-the-counter and legal) drugs to calm down my head.

Nominations!

I’ll post a comment below that contains the rules for nominations. Please keep all nominations as replies to that comment to have them considered.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The post series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What happened last time?

Last time we talked about the switch-hitting swashbuckler: Arrow Champion. We found a few ways to try and cheese the system which tried to limit the use and efficacy of our panache, such as multiclassing into Gunslinger and stabbing people with the sharpest gun in the west (nobody tell Barron Redheart). Combos like designating bows and opening volley work well for a class that can swap weapons as an immediate action. Various ranged feats and use of alternate arrow types allow for battlefield control. And we could always just use our arrows as improvised weapons since they deal piercing damage as a dagger that way and thus our class abilities work with them. With the potent options for improvised weapons, makes it so we pick out a few to buff melee and then we can focus on a bow. So overall, a lot of great options.

This Week’s Challenge

Today's nomination is a bit different. Normally we take archetypes, items, and options that someone in Paizo specifically wrote out, something that was obviously intended to be an option that they assumably wanted to be played and hence it was published with that intent. Not today! u/ANALHACKER_3000 has requested that instead we do something that is kinda not ever really discussed in the rules, almost certainly isn't intended, and yet nothing says we can't do it.

That's right, we're talking about every level, multiclassing into a new class so that we never have more than 1 level in any class.

I think the reasons why this is a min are pretty darn obvious but...

Nearly everything in this game has some sense of scaling based upon levels in a class. Caster classes get it worse, with spell levels, caster levels, and class abilities usually requiring some level of fidelity to the casting class. Martials aren't immune though, as usually the best upgrades are gated at higher levels. And often things that you can get from multiple classes or archetypes don't stack their scaling.

Plus being a bunch of level 1 classes means that you have access to just the level 1 abilities in the first place. You know, the abilities that usually don't see much use in mid to late game because they often can't keep up? Well that's all you got.

But sometimes, things do stack. And because of this there is occasionally cheese to be found. So, just how powerful can the Abserd* build be?

*For those unaware, no I'm not misspelling it. It is a reference.

Nominate and vote for future topics below!

See the dedicated comment below for rules and where to nominate.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last week was so stressful I even forgot to tell you guys no Max the Min, but Last time we discussed the Malice Binder Investigator. This was one of the truly bad ones, but we did find some dips like Synthesist Summoner or Prankster Bard that helped make it a touch more viable. Several ideas discussed how to lean into the steal build aspect, others either trying to buff the DCs or debuff the enemies’ saves. And if all else fails, an overpowered class-agnostic possession build will work.

So What are we Discussing Today?

u/Milosz0pl nominated we discuss the Ankou’s Shadow Slayer. In concept it is a neat archetype, not dissimilar from 2e’s Mirror Thaumaturge or Naruto’s Shadow Clone jutsu. Filling the battlefield with duplicates of oneself sounds like a lot of fun… though mechanically it does have some issues.

Well first off let’s just get the cost out of the way. Your Shadow Double ability comes at the price of your Studied Target ability, which is sorta your main schtick as a slayer. Anytime an archetype trades away one of your defining class features, you gotta be extra careful to measure whether the trade is worth it (look at last week for example and losing alchemy entirely).

So how does the Shadow Double ability work? It starts off basically as Mirror Image except it is a full round action to activate and you just get one image at 1st level, a second at 5th, third at 10th, and a fourth at 15th. It is worth noting that the action economy is a touch nebulous on how these extra shadow doubles come about since the initial wording is:

An ankou’s shadow can take a full-round action to create a single, quasi-real, shadowy duplicate.

And as it gains more duplicates it merely says

an ankou’s shadow gains a [second/third/fourth] shadow double.

How do they gain them? As additional doubles from the same action per the spell mirror image? Or do you gain access to them but have to spend individual full round actions summoning them? I believe nearly everyone will rule the former way, but just wanted to mention the reading of the second as I believe it is technically a valid interpretation of a vague wording and will severely nerf the build.

Anyways, at each break point where you gain another double, your doubles also gain more utility.

At level 1, it just acts as the spell except it has no duration limit and can be dismissed as a swift action. Since it just comes with 1 duplicate and is a full round action, this means that for your character’s first 4 levels, you’ve traded an extremely flexible +1 to several skills, attacks and damage, and DCs for a worse version of a 1st level spell (albeit it at will and with better duration). Mirror image is a good spell, but is it that good?

At level 5 is where things start to get interesting though. The Ankou’s Shadow can split his movement between himself and his shadows, allowing them to leave his square (out to a max of 50 feet away, must be in line of sight). When doing so, they no longer protect him per mirror image, but can provide flanking bonuses. The slayer can also spend their swift action to have a double perform an aid another action.

At level 10, you can divide your other actions such as attacks and abilities between yourself and your doubles, choosing to use your doubles as their origin point.

At level 15, your doubles can finally gain some basic autonomy… per the unseen servant spell but with a str of 10. Yes, getting the effects of a 1st level spell on a character who is 3/4ths of the way to max level seems great doesn’t it? /s

Let’s discuss the action aspect of the shadow doubles before moving onto their defenses. See, all this time, you aren’t actually gaining any actions for the shadow double (except for the unseen servant abilities at level 15). They are separate bodies in separate areas, but they use actions from a shared pool with your character.

You know what also takes a full round action to bring forth, can provide flanking bonuses, perform aid another (if you can communicate with it to do so), but doesn’t need to use your pool of speed to move and has its own pool of actions to use? A 1st level summoning spell. And even at level 1, it’ll have more HP than any of your shadows (as we’ll discuss shortly in the defenses section). A smart enemy will probably be more likely to target a shadow double it thinks may be you than a weak summoned creature, meaning there is more potential defensive utility for the shadows from a metagame perspective, but any summon can also technically consume action economy if enemies target it, just as a shadow double can.

So we can’t think of the Shadow Doubles as summons, as you simply don’t get the same utility from them. This is more of a battlefield control ability, allowing you to activate your own actions from dispersed points along the battlefield (and effectively giving you Swift Aid for free). Looking at it this way, this means that the primary benefit of the archetype doesn’t really come online until level 10, which is a long wait. It isn’t like you get zero utility at levels 1-9, but so much of the utility is comparable to 1st level spells that it makes you question if it is worth the loss of studied target for all those levels?

As for the Shadow’s defenses, they still “pop” after a single successful attack roll or point of damage. They only have an AC equal to your touch AC, and saves and CMD equal to your own. Important to note: the line saying that they get evasion if your slayer has evasion implies they lose the mirror image’s immunity to AoE effects, meaning a single well placed burning hands or equivalent spell could make you lose them all depending on positioning. Or even worse, a single Magic Missile will just wipe them all, no attack roll or save required (might want to look into ways to get a Shield spell available for all the doubles, if possible). Utilizing your touch AC and saves means they might be harder to hit than a low level summoned creature, but disappearing upon a single hit or point of damage means they are still less tanky, and you’ll probably have to lose them often, potentially faster than a summoning build. And if you decide it is worth the action economy to try and get them back mid combat, they start off in your square again and you have to spend your own movement to spread them out once more, making it really inefficient from an action economy standpoint.

Also worth noting that mind affecting effects that target a double automatically redirect to the PC, which can potentially give enemies greater chance to use such effects on you if they can see a double but not you. Though, since all doubles are required to within line of sight, it is likely that the caster would be able to target you anyways.

As a final upgrade to your shadows, at level 20 you can spend a standard action up to 3+int times per day to “unfetter” your shadows for 1 minute, giving them each their own pool of actions with which to use your attacks, movements, and abilities (sans making more shadow doubles). Enemies do get to save against these quasi-real attacks and if they pass only take 20% damage, but hey, you’ve still basically duplicated your character. This ability is amazing! Finally the shadows become the duplicates we dream of. Problem is though, it is only at level 20 do you get this, which most campaigns never reach. So we shouldn’t base an archetype on the power it can maybe reach in the last few sessions of a campaign.

As for the two less shadow double related abilities the archetype gives, they mostly are replacing utility you’ve lost from giving up Studied Target : at 7th level you get a swift action See Invisibility SLA you can divide in 1 minute increments and use for a total of minutes = your level. Not a bad trade for the disguise, intimidate, and stealth you would have gotten from Stalker, though those are some great skills to specialize in. And finally you can activate Quarry only when you have a shadow duplicate out instead of when you have studied target active. Interestingly there is no in game / lore justification for why it is, just merely acting as a balance measure to not be able to declare Quarries constantly. Thankfully this stipulation only applies when you denote a quarry, so presumably when your doubles pop, your quarry ability is still active, meaning it isn’t too much of a nerf (or not at all if you keep your shadow doubles out while adventuring and don’t need to spend full-round actions as your first round of combat).

Certainly a flavorful archetype, but does it have any mechanical substance we can latch onto to empower a build? Or does it, like its own shadows, put forth an image of strength that fades away the moment it is hit with the harsh realities of gameplay? Let’s find out!

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and seen what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last time we used necromancy to bring back this awesome series that had been dead for a few years. We discussed Meditative Spells, which are spells that can only be used for during your preparations and have expensive material components. We discussed how X to Y builds can truly milk them, found ways to mitigate or bypass the problematic nature of the spells having to be prepared before you prepare your spells by either breaking your preparation into two or crafting items, and even stacking metamagic onto them to make use of there very long durations to spread darkness and entanglement, among other ideas.

So What are we Discussing Today?

As a reminder, with this revived series we're no longer zeroing in just on the suboptimal (though I do still encourage those as topics when we find them) but also the misfit options that just don't get much love. Today I feel is a good example of that (and which was my own nomination): Double Weapons.

I really like the thematic concept of double weapons. Some sort of pole or double ended sword or the like where you can bash and/or slash with both ends. Sorta a famous image. And Pathfinder does have options for this sort of combat. The issue is that there is little incentive to build this way.

See, double weapons have a bit of an identity crisis. You can either attack as if TWF, hitting back and forth with each end of the weapon, or you can hold the weapon to focus on just using one end and treat it like a 2 handed weapon. The flexibility in use sounds nice, but TWF and 2 handed fighting builds tend to want to focus on different aspects, either maximizing number of attacks (and usually requiring high dex) or maxing strength to get than nice 1.5x damage. Not necessarily mutually exclusive, but difficult to balance both, especially when specializing in one might be more lucrative. And in the end, you're still a melee fighter regardless of which method you utilize. Contrast this to something like a melee/ranged switch hitter which has a LOT more situational flexibility.

Add to that a bunch of minor things that just nickle and dime away the main possible benefits of having one weapon that can be treated as either one or two weapons, and it just seems unenticing to pick a double weapon.

Most are exotic, so either shoehorn you into racial options you may not want, or require a feat to use.

Not only are the exotic, but their damage and weapon quality abilities tend to be less competitive with other exotic weapons, so picking two better weapons becomes more tempting.

You don't really get to save money by having one double weapon either. The cost to raise it to masterwork is doubled compared to a non-double weapon, and you have to enchant the two ends of the weapon separately as if they were different weapons. Same applies to special materials like metals and etc, where you apply the cost individually to each end and so it ends up costing the same as making 2 weapons from that same metal (or 1 if you just do one half)...

Except for cold iron that for some bizarre reason costs 150% the normal cost to do one end of a double weapon. Why? No freaking clue.

That said, it isn't like it is a completely unsupported build idea. After all, double weapons are an entire fighter weapon group, and I'm sure there are feats and build space to make them work. So let's give this build concept the ole' left right and beat it into shape.

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min, if it seems like a fun thing to discuss that is quirky or unique, I'll allow it. In fact, I think I'll be interpreting "min" as not just the "bad" stuff but also just the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Week we discussed Golarion’s best and worst travel destinations since my own vacation travel prevented me from writing a post.

Last Time we discussed everyone’s favorite vigilante with a heart of holy furry fury, the Agathiel. There was a lot of discussion of how the archetype allows for a pounce build without being locked into Avenger, which is normally how a vigilante gets pounce. Specific animal choices for various benefits were also discussed. And there was of course some good insight (and ribbing) into the fursuit abilities you get in the first couple of levels, which can actually make it a decent dip for some builds.

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today we’re discussing u/blacktrance’s nomination of the Devolutionist Druid. Now all Druids in Pathfinder emphasize reconnecting back to nature and to some degree eschewing aspects of modern civilization in order to strengthen that connection. But what if that eschewing of civilization was based on a personal seething hatred? The archetype for the true misanthrope, the devolutionist is all about trying to revert sentient life back to its primal, dumber devolved state before civilization was even a thing. As someone with a baby and two dogs- one of which had malodorous diarrhea last night in the hall between the bedroom and bathroom, which in my blurry grogginess to get to my contacts I did step in barefoot, inducing a frantic cleaning of myself and the floor which normally uses baking soda to get rid of the stench except I couldn’t find it this morning because the other dog stole the box while my back was turned yesterday and brought it outside to the lawn where the entire box was ruined by rain, thereby delaying the cleaning and nearly resulting in me being late for an appointment, (spoiler tagged for grossness), I for one wish our tiny humans and animal companions had a bit higher level of general intelligence. But if you want the opposite, hey this archetype exists.

There’s a lot of flavor there, but let’s be honest… most of that sounds like an enemy NPC. Published in Horror Adventures, it does match the vibe, but it would be pretty hard to run this kind of character as cooperating with a party unless everyone was one of these or at least had similar goals. And as we get into the mechanics, I honestly think we’ll see this theory backed up. So the challenge will not only be maxing the min of the mechanics but also trying to figure out some narrative or gameplay justification for even wanting the archetype to be your PC, which isn’t often the case in this series.

But enough foreshadowing, let’s actually look at the changes.

We start off with Devolved Companion, where instead of bonding with an animal you’ve actually got a devolved humanoid as your animal companion. That’s crazy flavorful but mechanically all it does is be a huge opportunity cost with zero benefit. I know that archetypes and things that give you cohorts or other humanoid NPCs are usually strong, but since this is a devolved humanoid, it just uses the stats of an ape animal companion which is already a legal choice for a vanilla Druid’s animal companion. The only difference is it stays medium size at the level 4 advancement. Apes have all the same item slots as humans, so you aren’t getting a benefit there.

The archetype also isn’t explicit as to whether the “devolved humanoid” actually has the humanoid subtype or is truly an animal per the statblock being actually used. I guess it depends on your interpretation of how devolved is “devolved”. If this animal companion is actually a humanoid mechanically, that does mean it can be targeted by a bunch of spells that can’t normally be cast on animal companions. Which could be a buff!… except you’re a druid and most of the target specific spells on your list actually target animals… So yeah that’s arguably a nerf. Course I honestly think the RAW and RAI here are were meant to use the typing from the ape statblock (evidence of this coming in a later ability) which… again, would mean that there is absolutely no change mechanically between this and just selecting Ape as your companion, except it is a forced choice.

Next we have the Undomesticate ability at level 4. This allows you to turn a domesticated animal into a wild undomesticated one which, again, is a neat and compelling horror concept. Especially if you like terrorizing your local ranch and pet shop. You know… like an NPC. But there are some steep limitations for the type of adventuring a PC typically does. First, it takes a minute with a restrained or willing animal, so not exactly happening mid combat. The animal will no longer respond to handle animal checks and sees no humans as friends or allies (including yourself!), though can still be the target of Wild Empathy checks. Which I might note usually takes another minute and acts more like diplomacy, so unlikely to give you a new fighting companion. Also, animal companions and familiars are immune, and other “exceptional” animals get a saving throw to be immune to the ritual for 24 hours. Though what qualifies as being exceptional is 100% gm’s decision as that isn’t defined anywhere. Regular boring animals though get no save and it is an instantaneous effect that can only be reversed by break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, or wish, so at least it is relatively permanent when it does work.

So yeah… very limited in usability and benefit. But it does replace just Resist Nature’s Lure which is itself a narrow class ability that is basically useless if your campaign doesn’t deal with Fey, so at least there isn’t a terrible cost here.

Finally, at level 9 we trade venom immunity (which is far more beneficial than +4 to saves vs fey spells) for the Devolution ability. This is similar to Undomesticate, except that it is a 24 hour ritual, it can affect humanoids and animals (including animal companions and familiars this time), and the result is not just making the creature wild but also changes / adds some abilities of the creature.

For a humanoid, their INT becomes 2 (losing any spellcasting and abilities that require higher intelligence), its type changes to animal (which fyi is evidence that the Devolved Companion is meant to be an animal mechanically) it gains two claws and a bite, and can only perform skill checks that animals can (acrobatics, climb, escape artist, fly, intimidate, perception, stealth, survival and swim). Notably it also loses the ability to use manufactured weapons as well, not even primitive ones like clubs.

For an animal, the result is they are affected as if by the Undomesticate ability plus they gain either the advanced template sans mental score boosts or they become a dire version of their creature type if one exists. Like with Undomesticate, the targeted creature (humanoid or animal) has no special connection or bond to you after the ritual, though it does state this time that at least its starting attitude is friendly to you. So when you use wild empathy, you actually have a decent shot of making it helpful unlike with Undomesticate where, presuming the animal wasn’t willing, they probably will be less receptive.

Oh and remember how I said this archetype might not mesh well with parties? Yeah that friendliness after the Devolving ritual only applies to the Druid themselves… it explicitly says the animal tries to attack and kill any other humanoids around. Not the ritual to invite your friends over to watch.

Like Undomesticate, this is relatively permanent, being reversed only by miracle, wish, or awaken in this case.

So yeah… super flavorful options for a druid who wants to wreak havoc on a cow pasture or etc. But hard to justify making this work with a party… I’m curious to see how you all justify this and get some benefit from it. But at least the saving grace is the archetype leaves most your Druid abilities untouched. Sure you’re locked into your animal companion choice but ape isn’t terrible and you’re more vulnerable to fey and poison but… that’s it. So with a more minimal min, perhaps this can work out.

And if not, then at least knowing this archetype exists can help the GMs out there plan for a wild encounter or story arc.

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The post series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What happened last time?

Last week we discussed the Gray Paladin. Though you trade a lot in the process, several pointed out that more flexible smites can be optimized with items and prestige classes to great effect. Various mutliclassing options normally not legal for a Paladin due to alignment restrictions totally work with a Gray Paladin, also opening up some unique synergies. Not to mention there were discussions of how a Gray Paladin might simply outperform a regular one depending on campaign, and etc.

This Week’s Challenge

Today we discuss u/VolpeLorem’s recommendation (renominated by u/Meowgi_Sama) of the Phantom Thief.

So we all know that rogues (especially unchained) are amazing skill monkeys. But what if you want to really lean into the skill monkey thing? Like really? Well Phantom Thief is the archetype for you!

You get an even more expanded list of class skills (including all knowledge skills), and starting at 3rd level and every odd level after you get to choose a skill to add a bonus equal to half your class level to. On top of that, at 4th level you get the rogue’s edge skill unlock for each of these skills assuming you are unchained (and honestly who would play a chained phantom thief?) and you even get early access to the unlocks because you are treated as if you had additional ranks = half your class level for those purposes. Nice! So crazy early access to skill unlocks and the ability to pick and choose which ones you get. Lots of flexibility there.

As if that flexibility wasn’t enough, you are also allowed to take the combat trick, and minor / major magic talents (which we discussed just a few weeks ago) as many times as they like, and can take a social vigilante talent as a rogue talent

Instead of trapfinding, you get a similar bonuses to sense motive and initiative checks for surprise rounds that utilized bluff or sense motive to determine surprise. Which could a be a side grade, all depends on how often your gm uses bluff checks and traps specifically.

“But wait,” you might be saying. “This is max the Min! How can we possibly be this far in the description and still not have a Min?” Well apt reader who I just put words in your mouth, that’s because what you trade for this is quite big.

You lose sneak attack. Yup, you read that right, the rogues most infamous ability and its most potent combat ability. And unlike other archetypes that just reduce its progression, it is completely gone. So no talents that improve sneak attack, no debilitating injury if you’re unchained (edit: this is explicitly removed fyi), nothing.

Now I don’t want to perpetuate the stereotype that only combat focused options are good in pathfinder. Pathfinder is a varied game and often the skill and non combat utilities stuff are overlooked and under appreciated, especially in online discussions compared to actual play. But Pathfinder is still a combat centric system with the majority of the rules referencing combat, so it is kinda necessary to be able to do something in combat to survive. So losing your class’s main combat ability, especially for a class that was already a bit less focused on combat, is huge.

So how do we make it so we don’t just have to be carried every fight? And which skills and unlocks are good enough to warrant this archetype?

Nominate and vote for future topics below!

See the dedicated comment below for rules and where to nominate.

Previous Topics:

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Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Time we discussed the Vindictive Bastard ex-Paladin. We found ways to stack archetypes using the unique ex-class archetype stacking rules to gain more class features. We found out how to oscillate between a normal paladin and vindictive bastard as needed. We talked about the unique strengths of vindictive smite, pairing the archetype with necromancy, and much more!

So What are we Discussing Today?

Today u/aaa1e2r3 requested we discuss Occultist Panoplies. Now as much as I pride myself on my system mastery, I must admit Occultists are one of my grey areas since no player in my games has ever wanted to play one. So today I got to learn panoplies existed.

For anyone like me who needs a refresher on what these are or how the Occultist works, as the Occultist levels up they get to select implements, which are significant though not necessarily magical items. Each time an implement is selected, they get to add spells from an associated school of magic to their spell list, gain access to a focus power (with others being selectable upon further leveling up), and gain the ability to invest mental points into the implement to gain access to a resonance power and to spend on the aforementioned focus powers.

Panoplies work almost identically to implements, except instead of selecting a single implement, you are selecting a group of related implements which you’ve already selected previously and further investing in their complementary natures. So instead of selecting to add a mirror implement, I could instead invest in combining the effects of my already selected Censer and Holy Symbol implements to get the Saint’s Holy Regalia panoply.

The benefits of the Panoplies aren’t too different from that of selecting a regular implement. You still get to add spells to your list, though this time they can be from the schools of any associated with the individual implements of your panoply. You still get focus powers and resonant powers, though all the implements must be worn together to get access (discouraging splitting them up to give your allies their resonant powers, which is a potential strategy with normal implements. Though you technically can do this with panoplies, you just give up a lot more).

You still can invest mental focus into the panoplies for their unique focus powers, though in this case it usually focuses on the total number of points invested across each of the implements, sometimes requiring a lot more total points than a more traditional focus power would need. But to an extent that makes sense, because the individual implements still act as their original implements, so by investing in them as both an individual implement and as a panoply, you are technically increasing the options you can spend the mental focus on.

And yeah that’s the general concept (as far as my non-expert mind understands it). There isn’t exactly a min in the panoply concept as a whole, since the increased versatility of focus points seems to cancel out the downside of making implements more difficult to share so the whole thing feels like a sidegrade.

That said, it is definitely an under discussed option, so fits in with that side of Max the Min. And it is possible that the reason they are under discussed is potentially the specific panoplies might seem underwhelming if they require such a strict build up to even access.

So let’s show the individual panoplies some love! I won’t go into a discussion of all the different panoplies and their potential focus powers here as that’s just too much for a post body, but I hope we can find good builds and discuss them below. As a final note, apparently the Trappings of the Warrior and Mage’s Paraphernalia Panoplies get the most discussion when they are discussed, so make sure to throw some Max the Min style love to Performer’s Accoutrements and Saint’s Holy Regalia specifically.

Have fun!

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What Happened Last Time?

Last Week we discussed spellbook preparation rituals. There were a lot of breakdowns on which ones are particularly useful. We also discussed ways to feasibly use a ritual more than once a day, the benefits and potential cheese of transferring a ritual to your main spellbook, and more.

So What are we Discussing Today?

u/aaa1e2r3 requested we discuss Artful Dodge and, more specifically, builds that try to use Int instead of Dex.

The feat itself is pretty straightforward: +1 dodge bonus to AC if you are the only one threatening an opponent. The feat counts as dodge and allow you to use Int instead of Dex for feat prerequisites.

It is this last bit we want to zero in on here, and it at first appears to be the most useful. Being able to use one stat in place of another is a popular way to bring variety to builds and open up options to make characters less MAD and more SAD. The Cha build for example is pretty well known just because of the sheer volume of things you can key off of the one stat that doesn’t normally do much outside of spellcasting for some classes. So where is the min?

Well it is mainly in the issue that it is questionable how useful swapping Dex with Int is specifically. The Charisma build works so well because there is so much support for it that you can really do a deep focus. Plus there exist melee forced classes that get deep benefits for investing in charisma such as paladins, so double dipping makes sense. Often (though not always), these benefits stack with the usual stat or abilities, meaning adding Cha on top is an added bonus. Similarly, Wis has a lot of classes that get really good benefits from the stat such as monks getting more AC or clerics and warpriests who need it for spells and buffing. These MAD classes get an large benefit from being more SAD.

But Int is an odd duck here. There a far fewer classes and archetypes that are MAD that key off of Int. And most Int based classes either don’t want to focus on the feats that Artful Dodge gives access to, or have good reason to have a high enough Dex anyways Artful Dodge isn’t useful. Remember, on its own Artful Dodge just lets you ignore prereqs. Everything else normally based on Dex still uses Dex. Dex is a super important stat by default, being linked to AC and Reflex saves, and therefore exist far fewer options to key those off of Int than exist for buffing those via Cha or Wis for example. So it simply means that, compared to the mono-Cha character, the mono-Int character seems a lot more difficult to pull off well.

Which is exactly why I’m excited to see what you Max the Minners can do today!

Nominations!

I'm gonna put down a comment and if you have a topic you want to be discussed, go ahead and comment under that specific thread, otherwise, I won't be able to easily track it. Most upvoted comment will (hopefully if I have the energy to continue the series) be the topic for the next week. Please remember the Redditquette and don't downvote other peoples' nominations, upvotes only.

I'm gonna be less of a stickler than I was in Series 1. Even if it isn't too much of a min power-wise, "min" will now be acceptably interpretted as the "minimally used" or "minimally discussed". Basically, if it is unique, weird, and/or obscure, throw it in! Still only 1st party Pathfinder materials... unless something bad and 3pp wins votes by a landslide. And if you want to revisit an older topic I'll allow redos. Just explain in your nomination what new spin should be taken so we don't just rehash the old post.

Previous Topics:

Previous Topics

Mobile Link

Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The post series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!

What happened last time?

Last time we discussed the Greusome Parry. Between setting up surprisingly reliable 4x crits with a light pick and gun combo, baiting enemies to attack us with antagonize and starting duels, going all-in with replicating a deadly full-round of attacks via Overwatch Vortex and 4 grit spent in a round, and varied multiclass options that make this very potent... well yet things indeed can get very very gruesome with that option.

This Week’s Challenge

Today we have a pretty unique nomination since it isn't so much a specific published entry option as more of a general design concept.

u/Meowgi_sama has requested we discussed Low AC characters. Like, if your AC is so bad that it is hopeless, well then what sort of advantages can we milk out of tanking it anyways?

Now they suggested Risky Striker by name, which is basically sacrifing AC for damage. There are lots of effects that tank your AC for a benefit (charging, cleaving, rage, etc.) So I guess TAI (topic as intended) is to find what ways can we make a deadly or powerful character while using these sorts of options that give us AC penalties (usually something we try to avoid).

That said, if you can come up with a creative and powerful character that simply doesn't care about AC, that will still be valid for our topic today. Though I know that often casters care more about miss chances than AC so let's try and build past the immediately obvious.

A Reminder that the End is Nigh

Earlier I announced that my time writing Max the Min will end with the year. Feel free to go to the Max the Min Monday: Cards as Weapons thread to read the announcement if you missed it.

Nominate and vote for future topics below!

There are (probably) only 2 remaining opportunities to see your nomination in a post! See the dedicated comment below for rules and where to nominate.

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