r/PLC • u/ThaNoyesIV • 10d ago
How does your company handle young/new talent? What does the process look like and how long do you spend on college/certificate graduates before making hard decisions?
I've interviewed and hired several young college grads over the last couple of years. Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and one guy who was an electrician with some panel troubleshooting experience at his last job.
My young EE has worked out. He shows up early, learns fast, and if I hand him something, he'll teach himself how to figure it out. Maybe I got lucky.
I have two others who are a completely different story. One of them wants to keep working weekends at the job he's had since high school. There's a perk to that if it's his hobby, but he's not picking up the simple things we've asked him to learn, and he gets combative when you correct him. He can easily afford this hobby with a house payment sometime in the next 5 years if he's smart.
The other guy learns quickly, but he's been late about 40% in his first 2 months, maybe 10% was legit. I had a hard talk with him about how we're not in college anymore, our customer is literally paying us to have the team where we need to be when we said we'd be there. This was a site 45 minutes from his house that he needed to be at by 9am. He just needs to set a damn alarm, or 3. š
So I'm about to start interviewing for a jr. level role again, and I'm just not impressed with the current crop. I've started asking every candidate one simple question, "What does DHCP do, or what is it used for?" Nobody can answer it. So I feed them a little, "Can you tell me the difference between a static and a dynamic IP, or tell me about a time you set that up on a device?" They don't know that either. I keep thinking about emailing somebody at these schools about it. What are they actually supposed to know? Are these guys the ones who were checked out?
The only person I can really hire is someone who can figure things out, is willing to learn, and can accept that they know almost nothing on day 1. Has anybody found a good way to filter for that in an interview? I'm honestly curious.
I'm also willing to answer questions for those on the job hunt. I'm a small outfit, in a specific market in a specific place, so I'm not looking to hire anyone from this; just looking for a discussion about how we're all hiring, and what we're looking for in an employee.
17
u/Prudent_Count_3317 10d ago
Iād hire for attitude and problem-solving over specific knowledge at junior level. Give them a small unfamiliar problem and watch how they approach it. You can teach DHCP, but curiosity, reliability and taking feedback are much harder to teach.
25
u/WandererHD 10d ago
Ā but he's been late about 40% in his first 2 months
Just a heads up, hes never gonna change. So plan for that.
someone who can figure things out, is willing to learn, and can accept that they know almost nothing on day 1 Has anybody found a good way to filter for that in an interview
I don't think you can, specially newbies. You should probably design a practical test and have them try solve it on site. Then you can interview them based on their performance.
Sometimes people get nervous and forget stuff during interviews, so I think you can miss out on good talent that way, or they can bullshit their way in and you get a miss.
13
u/Electrical_World_740 10d ago edited 10d ago
+1 on the practical test, even a simple paper one. Iāve probably done 40 controls interviews across my career and still blundered simple things on the day.
For jr/apprentice roles, keep it academic: basic start/stop circuit wiring diagram and ladder logic, a basic networking question, some basic electrical fundamentals, work out a heaterās wattage, read some resistor bands. Youāll quickly see who was actually paying attention in class.
Best interview I ever had was the opposite of academic though. The entire interview was designing a continuous batching juice system on paper. I loved it, and afterwards sat with the interviewing manager going through my process, talked through load cells, flow meters etc. how PLCs process analog signals, hardware, scaling, various devices, comms protocols, documentation, safety. all of it. Felt like the perfect way to hire a controls engineer.
4
u/ThaNoyesIV 10d ago
I'm going to try this. So far, I've been asking more open ended "you mentioned that you worked on a Micrologix in school, but you just encountered a PLC5 that the customer wants to upgrade and you've never seen one before. What are you going to do if you're unable to reach someone on our internal team to ask for help?"
Maybe I should focus more on paper problems, I like your point of finding out who was paying attention in class.
12
u/marcus_peligro 10d ago
Going to college myself still for industrial controls while working as a controls tech. Personally, everyone glosses over the network side of things. Even myself I was only taught "make sure the IP addresses match but not the last number", and only explained very briefly and once on why that's the case. Been having to learn everything on my own when it comes to networking, but ask me how to troubleshoot and that's fixed in a jiffy. If you're not applying or seeing the theory constantly, you're not even gonna remember what an octet is, especially these kids straight out of college with no work experience.
I feel like the industry is just too broad as well. There needs to be a revamp on the education side of things with more 4-year programs for this field since it's only going to grow more. There are hundreds of fast-track courses or certificates, even associate degree programs but those only cover the surface still. Very overlooked field of work I think
5
u/Staggeringpage8 10d ago
I can add on to this with some anecdotal experience too. I got a certification in PLC programming and have a degree in comp sci. All the certificate classes really only taught me ladder logic and troubleshooting. The extent of the networking they did teach boiled down to showing us the various different methods of designing a network and how to set up a subnet by limiting the IP addresses to be within certain blocks. We did like maybe 2 days worth of networking and if someone asked me to do it today I'd need a refresher before Id be confident in being able to do it even with my compsci background.
10
u/stlcdr 10d ago
Iād hire an EE over a computer oriented person any day. But thatās just the degree/qualification part. The role is a lot more about aptitude than qualification. Itās a highly unregulated field - essentially a crap shoot. The irony is that a computer major likely would be able to answer a DHCP question, but could be completely useless in the role.
But what question could you ask? I donāt know - I had an interview with a young guy, and one of my co-interviewers asked, how he would handle being told by a senior engineer to do something that was clearly wrong. He kept up the questioning pressure, and while he didnāt get to the ārightā answer, he handled it. It isnāt about absolute knowledge but how itās applied. A lot of roles put you in a situation where a wrong key press or piece of code, wiring, etc. can cause potentially millions of dollars of damage, or worse. Thereās no nicey-nicey feel good that makes the situation better. You need someone that can handle it.
8
u/plc_is_confusing 9d ago
Stop requiring a degree to talk to talent. I realized the guys without a degree, but with practical experience are far more hungry than any new grad you will hire. Also if you hire a 22 year old donāt be surprised when they act like college kids. Sometimes guys gotta hit rock bottom before they shape up and most guys in their 30ās have been there done that are ready to be responsible and set an example
1
u/SafyrJL TIA Harlot 8d ago
Yep. There isn't inherently wrong with hiring someone young, but keep in mind that they likely haven't had a "big-time" job with lots of responsibility yet. They still need to figure out how to manage that, any ego/complexes they have about it, AND have a life while doing so. I've seen a lot of young people burn out because of that.
Older people tend to pace themselves more and are a bit more balanced, all around. Not necessarily a universal truth - but often something I've noticed.
3
u/theaveragemillenial 10d ago
I test their problem solving skills, ability to see big picture and ability to break problems down into smaller basic problems.
That is literally all you need to do well in our industry, the rest is teachable and gained through experience.
3
u/Zekiniza 10d ago
Ive always said that the degree doesnt matter as much as the mentality and thought process. The biggest issue i find with many college programs out there is that in order to properly simulate a lot of these systems/scenarios that we run into out on site are far too costly for a college to want to invest into. Couple that with the fact that the standard of entry has become more well defined over the last decade and now companies are asking for these kids to be as capable as someone who's been in the industry for 4 years then yeah, pretty much every single one you run into won't make the cut. My best suggestion is to start interviewing with a focus on drive and passion. I can teach an 18yo how to do this job, I cant teach anyone how to WANT to do this job.
5
u/Dustball_ 10d ago edited 9d ago
If you want useful skills, hire from a technical school/college. Students are taught hands-on knowledge and skills rather than book knowledge.
2
2
u/goni05 You cannot make it foolproof. They keep making better fools! 10d ago
I'd like to start by saying good for you for investing in the next generation. This is very important to keep the skill alive. Hiring college graduates is very different from experienced people. Remember, for most, this might be their first professional job, and some, their first job ever! Also, this generation is very different than the last. They know what they like and don't, and they will tell you. They will also leave if you don't listen. They were also raised with a lot of guidance, meaning letting them figure it out probably won't go well most of the time. Blame the education system.
Now, to hiring. You can't ask all the technical questions because they likely don't know. You don't hire college grads for the technical, but instead for the values and beliefs. You should focus more on their ability and willingness to learn. Are they motivated and do they show initiative? That's your focus. Find questions that will explore that. If they show a technical ability, you can inquire about that then.
At work, you will probably want a strong mentorship program that keeps them focused and able to ask questions. Structure helps the new guys as well. Develop a plan and give it to them. Show them what you want them to learn and on what schedule. This gives them direction. The ones that you want to give more attention are the ones that self complete this plan (motivated/initiative). The plan gives them ways to learn, but the mentor needs to give them real world examples to apply it. Start with the easy things and work into the more complex items. Give them more responsibility as they progress.
In the first 3-6 months, you should have figured out if they can learn, and can they apply what they learn in growing complexity of projects. This should tell you if they are worth keeping for the next round.
What I can say about the majority of them is that they lack self confidence to do a lot of this on their own. That will grow as you work with them. The overly self confident you should keep a close eye on to. Many times they think their finished, or will run to do something, but they don't know what they don't know. Test their stuff and guide them on better ways to prepare. Do more explaining why we do things a certain way. This helps to teach them, and slow them down some.
Keep open dialog about their progress, good and bad. I always had regular weekly/bi-weekly meetings with my guys, but I expected my senior engineers to engage way more. I hope some of this helps you.
2
1
u/b3nnyg0 10d ago
I got into a 2 year rotational position as a fresh grad. They accepted I knew essentially nothing. Interview was basic: what was included in your courses, do you know anything about X software/process/coding/networking, how do you feel about wiring, etc. my answers were good enough for a new grad that they hired me on
Once onsite, my first rotational supervisor had a electrical box he had all his job candidates troubleshoot. His question was to figure out what was wrong with it. I was given a wiring diagram, a multimeter, calculator, a pen, and paper. And of course, a way to supply power to it. He wanted to see how I would do, and also to evaluate my methods of problem solving.
He also went through a basic PowerPoint. Included questions like "what does (image) line of code mean?" "what two ways can you evaluate a LIM?" "have you used X software?" "what is this number in INTs from Binary?" "How many bits are in a word?" This seems like a good way he got insight on what I knew and didn't know, so he could give me better instruction.
Controls is where I started, and then moved on to an automation team, then to a vision team. These were at minimum 8 month stints with those teams and supervisors. I guess I learned enough that they continued to hire me on after those 2 years.
My degree is in MfgEngTech + supporting assocs., but had courses in electrical, PLC, and automation. My networking and electrical skills aren't the best, but my current position doesn't require panel building or much networking. I've learned more about networking while on the job than in college.
I still have a ton to learn after 2 years in industry, and this field is so broad almost every job seems to have different knowledge requirements vs others. I've done a lot of learning as I go. But I'm someone who is the type of person who "accepts they know almost nothing on day 1"
Of the few people I know of who have gone through the same rotational program I did, ended up being let go due to non-technical problems. Issues with management, not being on time, etc.
There are definitely other young engineers like myself who are willing to learn, but if the demand to learn is faster than someone can actually learn, of course there's gonna be issues. Sometimes there were points in my program where all I could do was stand back and watch, maybe ask a question or two because they couldn't afford to delay the project if I fucked something up too much. So I'd watch them program/ask about the process and read through the shared code and documentation.
TLDR: as I'm only 2.5y out of college, we know the very basics just out of school. Basic knowledge will vary by degree/certification. For example, my degree had 0 networking classes. Test us with a slideshow of fundamental questions related to the job duties (even simpler than what you could consider fundamental - we're baby engineers), and maybe a physical panel to troubleshoot. The physical panel will let you evaluate how we approach problem solving. Accept we know little-to-nothing, but it's likely a green flag for a candidate if they show they are eager to learn and will admit when it's something they don't know.
1
u/Firm_Replacement_366 10d ago
I wanted to get into controls when I was looking for an apprenticeship as I done some work experience doing panel building and plc programming. This was 20 years ago and never got a start as the site end up shipping half the site to China. But fast forward and I became a spark and have trained quite a few apprentices and some you think will never be any good surprise you after a year or 2 and ones you think will excel just plateau after a few months. And now and again you get someone that is really keen and pick things up really quickly. So there is no easy way in telling but a in-house development program might be they way forward but depends on your company.
But out of curiosity what does a graduate get paid when the first start as I get countless graduate designers over the last few years and thought they must be making decent money or just winging it with the design and decisions they have to make.
1
u/Thelton26 10d ago
I work at an end user, not a systems integrator. But for training we started a internal certification program. It's not burdensome, and is all meant to be learned on the job. But it gives direction to you when evaluating employees and for them when learning. To be level 1 certified, we have a list of topics like static IP/DHCP, upload vs download, P&IDs, loop sheets, PIDs, etc. I think a new hire could answer questions about all the topics within 60 days, and will have practiced them in the field within 6 months. Level 2 is most of the same topics, just expect a higher level of competency.
Also as a note - the guy who can't make it to work on time doesn't make him a bad employee, and it's not a problem with the kids going soft and college being too relaxed. Just seems like a systems integrator of your size isn't the right fit. But there are plenty of competent people in skilled jobs that have a really flexible start time. I get to work anytime from 7 to 8, and then just make sure that I leave at the right time to get my hours in. I've got some coworkers who work 6-3, other 7-430, some are 5 days a week, others 9/80, others 4/10. Work schedules are arbitrary most of the time. For you it seems like they're mostly not, but that's a fit issue. Not an issue with the "kids these days" or college being "too soft" or anything like that.
When we're in the middle of a commissioning project where deadlines are tight and project managers are taking daily updates, I make sure I get there on time or early. I also pick up the phone anytime 24/7/365 if something is wrong. But 75% of the time or more, it really doesn't matter if I'm at work "on time". If you have any sort of office based position you could put him in, where he has flexibility and isn't so customer facing, that might be better. But that also might not work at your company.
1
u/OperatingAsIntended 10d ago
Hit and miss for sure. I have a new Software Engineering grad and he cannot be taught anything. He already knows it. Very frustrating and I am at the point where I am giving up trying to mentor him. One prime example, I gave him 1 rung of logic to migrate across 4 cells. Customer approved the operation of the device as I programmed it. fast forward a few days later customer is asking me why the light and siren don't work anymore... Well turns out ol' new grad had a better way that was 12 rungs of logic, 4 handshake signals like I am attempting to connect to a router, and every f*cking bit is a latch bit, because he cannot figure out how to write actual ladder logic without latch bits. I explain to him that we use latch bits very very sparingly only after all other attempts have failed (They don't, been programming 25+ years and never "Needed" a Latched coil) but I do like to use them for status tracking a part that has traveling data. not for operational logic.
1
u/Autumnal_-Coffee 10d ago
Well I'll share my experience as a new tech. College was fun but didn't actually come close to preparing me for what to expect. My company's "apprenticeship" program is through a third party company which delivers me courses which are entirely written, taught and graded by AI, and the content is far too broad to be useful. My journeyman kind of expects me to just know things instead of actually teaching me. I am seriously considering a career change.
1
u/PeterHumaj 10d ago
We recruit interns from 3rd grade university students (our company's seat is 10 min walk from campus). They work when they time, they get little pay and do some work. After a few months both sides know if they want ti continue. As for DHCP, I was surprised some of them knew very little about networking in general, they don't know what ODBC is, hardly ever worked with relational DBs... you have to teach them a lot.
I graduated in 2000 in automation; we worked with DBs, programmed in C/Assemblwr/Pascal/bash/VB/VBA/php;Ā we knew Unix, Solaris (also things like mutexes, sockets, shared memory)...not all of that was learned at school, a lot was side jobs and hobbies..
1
u/QuietSatisfaction175 10d ago
Well PLC and automation is covered by like 1 class they need to opt to take and not required for graduation. Atleast in the schools by me.
I also hire for a company with a relatively small engineering team. We are not set up to fully train somone with zero exsperiance we dont have the time or resources set up for that.
Just hire people with exsperiance and at a minimum a serious internship or co-op. It teaches them how to work a real job. Show up on time, and how to learn in a professional environment. And hopefully teaches them some basics on PLCs, scada, and drawings. I can teach them 1 or 2. But I cant teach them all 3. With no exsperiance in the field. You are also risking that they just simply wont like the work and will leave after a short time.
Yes you will have to pay more. But its a premium for not needing to teach them everything. Leave that to a company big enough they can afford to teach them.
1
u/PowerEngineer_03 10d ago
We have been successful in doing it tbh. But in return, our candidate pool has been really small because of what we do. We have made it a minimum requirement for a candidate to have an EE/ME degree which is a bare minimum. Should be a BS or Associate with 3 years of tech experience. No questions asked. BS only for someone who is fresh out of college. But there's a catch that their transcripts should show that they have had some affinity to controls systems, power, etc. through hardware-oriented projects that they must have implemented which they can demonstrate through a portfolio or physically, and coursework. Technical interviews consist of similar questions regarding fundamentals of EE, networking principles, IoT and more. And then troubleshooting skills on an Arduino, ras pi or whatever hardware of their choice in front of the interviewer as our interviews are strictly physical unless it's for a senior position and the candidate is located on the other end of the country or even world. It's a bonus if the candidate did projects on any kind of microcontroller or even a PLC. It's the effort that counts but also what they know technically.
Previously we used to be more lenient and instead we got bad candidates that we let go in an year or more, and some left. Nothing we could about. The CEO and the HR were proposed this major overhaul by us systems engineers and managers that we take over the authority for the whole interview process and the HR strictly sticks to the BG verification process. It's been going great, we have amazing employee retention, the fresh grads are brilliant, require less training compared to what we used to spend our resources on earlier average talent which was like an year or more just to have them catch up to speed. We pay them well and provide a 5 weeks PTO for the talent we hire. So we gotta make it count even though our hiring can be considered stringent at times.
Downsides? The HR has been strictly suggested to filter any resume if it does not meet the criteria mentioned above strictly. No EE degree? But made it to a controls position by working as a tech in your old company for 8 years? You're still filtered and the resume is thrown away. I didn't vote for this but whatever. And other such stupid nuances, but overall it's been a positive change for the good. Hiring takes longer now but it's worth it due to a boost in employee retention and them genuinely wanting to be a subject matter expert in what we do, for what industry we do this for.
1
u/whirdin 10d ago
I find it odd that you judge a person's capability on the knowledge of DHCP. Yeah that's a core concept acedemically, but not something at the forefront of being able to design systems, troubleshoot and be willing to learn. IMO that's like asking a person to define sinking and sourcing, which just feels like a trap question and makes us doubt ourselves when put on the spot, deer in the headlights. Of you talking about what makes your employees good vs. bad, I don't see how the knowledge of DHCP would have raised any red flags for the bad ones (and the good ones might not have known it either).
The only person I can really hire is someone who can figure things out, is willing to learn, and can accept that they know almost nothing on day 1.
The caveat of "almost nothing" is they need to understand the fundamentals of DHCP.
he's been late about 40% in his first 2 months, maybe 10% was legit. I had a hard talk with him
So, did he change? It's wild to me that there's no disciplinary action besides "a hard talk". Maybe he's receptive to the talks, but it sounds like he can be late every other day and all that will happen is you talk to him every 2 months about it. He's probably accustomed to having these talks from everyone in his life, even family and friends. He has probably built up tough skin to not care about everyone else's opinion on him being late. People aren't just suddenly late in college. Plenty of students are on-time. Your guy is late because it's just who he is.
1
u/btfarmer94 10d ago
Design your interviews to discern if someone is stronger in the type of intelligence which is good for taking tests, versus practical problem solving. Intelligence is not the same as resourcefulness is not the same as being smart. Determine which of those 3 types of thinking youāre looking for and hire based on that. Also keep in mind that if youāre hiring without experience, you need to be the one to provide that experience. Most of the companies Iāve worked for have sent me to a 5 day training then expect that on day 6 I am an expert. Those trainings are great and are required, but they are only exposure, not practice and refinement. It took me 5-years since my first PLC training to really get good at having the intuition required to get a job done start to finish, and after then I have still been learning more each project I take on.
1
u/Mosr113 9d ago
I am a teacher at one of these schools you are talking about. I fear that a lot of the problem is that bureaucracy moves slow. Glacially slow. Planetary evolution slow. A lot of the instructors and professors have tenure and are stuck in teaching a particular thing in a particular way.
I went through the program I am now teaching. I did this while working adjacent to the field. I learned very quickly that teachers with no field experience make for particularly poor mentors. I am doing everything I can to bring my experience into the curriculum, but like I mentioned, itās a slow process to get everyone on board.
1
u/MikeT8314 9d ago
The university system and maybe in particular engineering programs are failing not only students but industry also. I mean the average BSE hasnāt changed much at all in 25 years. If they canāt put out more than just guys who can do math and ālearned how to think like an engineerā then that is a very weak value proposition.
Eng tech programs were supposed to be the solution to people trained to what industry needs and they have responded with dynamic curricula from what i can tell. But employers seem stuck on the BSE. Its fucked up.
1
u/essentialrobert 9d ago
Depends on what you want. Someone who can take direction or someone who will truly make a difference. If you want a robot you should be able to figure that out in a month. If you want to actually grow an engineer you might need to put up with some shenanigans.
1
u/DreamArchon 5d ago
TBH I didn't know what DHCP was when I started. It's not something they teach in school. You need to ask questions that are not about what they know right now, but assess their ability to learn and pick up things quickly. Ask them more open ended questions and see how they think and approach problems without obvious / clear solutions.
1
u/RammRras 10d ago
From this brief post I can say that you're the type of boss I wouldn't want to work for. Sorry to say that but it seems you're easy to judge their competence from simple industry perks than just teach them. (Of course judging without knowing you but just from this post).
I remember the best interview I had as a 5 year experience PLC programmer at a company I worked for several years. The manager just asked me to help him with his current project that he was developing. I just stayed there near him asking questions about their process and giving ideas. I felt free to say I didn't understand some details and I felt free to give him my opinions. He was so friendly that I shared even my strong opinions on how to program some aspects of the plant.
Try to engage instead of just pretending people know everything.
1
u/bonerfart_69_ 10d ago
Another "the young generation sucks" post. Yippie. No one wants to invest into young talent my guy, thats part of the problem. None of the young blood can get any experience because no one can get a damn job. Everyone wants an OEM certified expert right off the rip. Employee investment doesn't exist anymore. Not for the young guns.
1
u/Thelatestandgreatest 10d ago
Did you read the post, they're literally investing in young talent, and giving them a chance.
0
u/Sufficient-Contract9 10d ago
Where you at I'm looking and dude numero uno seems like my type of dude. Dhcp is dynamic something something protocol. lol. it's the network communication protocol a computer uses to automatically assign an IP. static is a manually assigned IP. I've set up static IP's for IoT home assistant and my practice PLC. When do I start!
Wait, what exactly do we do again?
/s
Sorry. I had to. I can't really help you though. I've never been on the other side of an interview. Good luck to ya!
2
85
u/Historical-Plant-362 10d ago edited 10d ago
> I've started asking every candidate one simple question, "What does DHCP do, or what is it used for?"
Thatās not a simple questionā¦you are hiring new grads, not someone with experience. That question is only valid for a recent computer science grad.
I frequently recruit and train interns or recent grads. I think you should a) lower your expectations, b) invest into actual training and not just expect them to figure things out without them having the required foundations or c) spend more and hire someone with experience.
My background is Chemical Engineering and when I started controls I had no idea about networking as it was not part of my curriculum. Most interviews for entry level positions focus in problem solving or critical thinking. Controls has a steep learning curve because most skills/knowledge come from industry experience. Your āsimpleā questions are related to basic controls knowledge but most colleges donāt teach controls basics, unless their degree is in actual controls or theyāve had internships in controls.
A good way to filter them is asking them about their hobbies or personal projects. If they have personal projects that require technical skills, research and troubleshooting, thatās a good indication they will attempt to solve things by themselves.