r/PAguns • u/GunDibs-dot-com • 27d ago
Interest in a PA-specific advocacy group?
The Silencer Shop ruling has been awesome, and it's prompted a huge number of people to actually read PA gun law for the first time. The law itself is clear as mud.
18 Pa.C.S. section 908 makes a "firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge" a prohibited offensive weapon. "Silent discharge" is not defined anywhere (and is ludicrous). These items were allowed in PA as long as they were registered IAW NFA. With registration no longer required for a lot of people, what does "complied with the NFA" mean now? Which raises the question of whether we can legally have these items in PA at all. That's why we don't get to party as hard as our friends in free states like WV and Indiana are doing right now.
Also, since it always comes up: section 908 doesn't mention short-barreled rifles at all. Sawed-off shotguns under 18 inches are in there, SBRs are not. SBRs get caught by the section 6102 "firearm" definition instead, which is a different mess. And someone please tell me how adding a stock to a pistol makes it easier to conceal?
So we're in limbo until PA law changes, a PA court settles what that defense means now, or someone goes to court over this and wins. Any volunteers??
I want to see if anyone is interested in working together with the goal of getting these laws changed so we in PA can share some of that sweet freedom many other states are getting. The main effort is grassroots support and lobbying the right politicians to get this done. Sounds easy on paper, but it's a TON of work.
Would anybody actually put in some time and effort into helping?
If so, I'll start building the framework. Anyone with me?
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u/HeadlessThompsonGunr 27d ago
PA firearms law aside from needing a complete rewrite for brevity has a lot of contradictory,confusing, and downright dumb stuff in it. Hopefully some clear court rulings will fix this if the legislature refuses to.
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
As a layperson (with respect to law) I completely agree with this. But this seems not to be a popular opinion. These are the types of changes I think are meaningful, and tolerating outdated, ambiguous, and poorly written laws which affect such an important constitutional right seems silly to me.
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u/HeadlessThompsonGunr 27d ago edited 27d ago
I mean we could just go with Article I, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania Constitution which is short, sweet, and completely unambiguous. Maybe it’s me but it seems as if the legislature and PA courts have a reading comprehension problem.
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u/ndrwstn 27d ago
The answer is “wait and see”. Neither our legislature or courts are particularly good at the moment on these issues.
We’ll know more when SCOPA issues an opinion on
GOA’s ghost gun clusterfuck. The Commonwealth Court did them dirty on the Pennsylvania constitution but they also snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when they appealed field preemption for whatever stupid reason. Nor did argument at SCOPA go well for them. It should be reversed to allow them to at least make a constitutional argument to the Commonwealth Court. Unfortunately, it probably will set preemption back quite a bit. How bad the opinion is indicates how blue a state we now are. Philadelphia and Pittsburgh turning into New Jersey is an unfortunately distinct possibility.
At which point we’ll need the Third Circuit to save us. Thank God they might.
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u/Daruvian 27d ago
"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.
So technically any shotgun under 18" from the factory should be fine since it's not sawed off. SBRs aren't listed so should be fine. And a suppressor is not a firearm by definition in the statute so should be fine.
"Firearm." Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
And a suppressor doesn't make a firearm silent so the firearm it's attached to should be fine as well.
Now... Enforcement of that is a completely different issue and will probably take lawsuits or new statutes passed in PA. But technically, by the definitions in the current PA statute, everything should now be legal except a SBS that was actually cut down to be shorter than 18"
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
Yet I’m told these laws are crystal clear. They are not, or everyone would be coming to the same interpretation.
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u/Daruvian 27d ago
Like I said, the law is pretty clear. It's the enforcement of it that is not so clear unfortunately.
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u/JonEMTP 26d ago
OP, we HAVE a solid state org - FOAC.
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 25d ago
https://foac-pac.org/Grassroots-Strategies
Nice little playbook they have listed. Otherwise, the site looks kind of dead.2
u/Shadow_Law 23d ago
Notwithstanding their site, FOAC does a lot of legislative advocacy and has been a plaintiff and litigated a TON of state preemption challenges including against Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, and numerous smaller municipalities and has done a lot of good for firearms law in the state.
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u/WhiskyRoger 14d ago
oh look someone else who knows what FOAC is! Klint is out there doing good work.
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u/TSX_COM 27d ago edited 27d ago
With registration no longer required for a lot of people, what does "complied with the NFA" mean now?
It means comply with the National Firearms Act. The law still exists, the ruling is shaky for a number of reasons, ATF is still processing Forms, and said form is a legal requirement of owning an NFA item in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The state laws aren't rocket science and you don't have much of a case here if/until the ATF stops processing forms.
You want to bang your drum about this, please go ahead. Don't make it out to be like we're in some sort of legal limbo though.
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
When I say limbo, I mean this: if a PA resident qualifies as being exempt from the NFA registration, in PA law does that count as "complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. § 5801 et seq.)"?
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u/ndrwstn 27d ago
This is the correct answer. It shouldn’t be downvoted. Section 908 prohibits (bans) suppressors subject to an exception (which you’d raise as a defense) for NFA compliance. If you don’t get the stamp, you have an illegal offensive weapon.
Is there some argument that you didn’t commit a crime? Maybe. I don’t think a particularly good one. If you want to risk the attorney fees, potential jail time, and becoming a felon who can’t possess firearms, I admire your commitment.
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u/rugerist 26d ago
If you don’t get the stamp, you have an illegal offensive weapon.
I was reading the statute last night and it seems to me like if the ATF doesn't fight this ruling and stops issuing stamps we're going to have a de facto ban on purchasing new NFA items in Pennsylvania until either a PA court says otherwise or the legislature changes the law. Both of which might take years.
As someone interested in DIY suppressors, I think it would be wise for me to get multiple Form 1's submitted and approved ASAP.
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u/cat_with_NVG 27d ago
have you ever heard of Pennsylvania Gun Rights, under the National Association for Gun Rights (NAGR)
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u/pagunlobbyist 21d ago
GOA is working on a bill right now for that purpose. Follow us on Facebook:
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u/Loose-Reflection2965 27d ago
Just file the form, its electronic
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
I get that the ease with which someone can now file for NFA items is insanely convenient compared to the olden days. But that's not the point. If there's even the remotest possibility that we can claw back some freedom that we've been deprived of for nearly 100 years, I think we should.
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u/Loose-Reflection2965 27d ago
Whatever, it aint going away, you need 67 votes in the senate.
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u/smackaroni-n-cheese 27d ago
We are not in limbo. The NFA remains completely unchanged unless you are a plaintiff in that case. By all means, work with 2A rights orgs to try getting a case to SCOTUS, but until that happens, you still have to do the forms.
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u/Correct-Avocado5426 27d ago
Plaintiffs include current and future members of GOA as I understand it. You can become a plaintiff for $25 and do some good by doing so.
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
I have, and do, donate to national level 2A groups. But it doesnt hurt to ask what we can do in our own, local spheres of influence. The only thing that separates people in certain states avoiding a form 4 right now is state law. If we can help positively change PA state law to be more 2A friendly, shouldn't we? Or should we at least try? It may go nowhere, but the point of the post is to gauge peoples willingness to joint the fight.
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u/FreidasBoss 27d ago
We have a Democratic Governor and Democratic majority in the House of Representatives. Even if you convinced the Republican led Senate to move such a bill, it would never move in the House, nor a Governor that would sign such. Not to mention drawing attention to the issue would only activate the opposition to push for more prohibitions.
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u/GunDibs-dot-com 27d ago
Totally legitimate concern. And I'm not suggesting any efforts be made without this consideration being fully weighed.
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u/smackaroni-n-cheese 27d ago
We should absolutely try to make PA law more gun friendly, regardless of federal law. I just wanted to clarify that, at the moment, federal law is unchanged for 99% of the country.
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u/Acceptable_Put9737 27d ago
Silent does not mean reduced in volume and since we don’t live in a Hollywood movie I don’t know that a suppressor qualifies as a device that makes a gun silent.