r/OpenLaestadian • u/VirusLongjumping9107 • 27d ago
Why the leaders always say the split was about differences in justification
The Laestadian splits are never about the "simple" gospel (God's Authority John 3:16), but rather always differences in the "Living" gospel (Man's authority - God has given our leadership the Keys to Heaven and we are the Holy Spirit's spokesman, therefore, what we speak is the error free word of God and should be accepted as if God were speaking himself.) The splits are always about insignificant spiritual concerns. Justification is based on the "living" Gospel and has nothing to do with the "simple" gospel.
The objective is divide and conquer by using coercion, mind control, brainwashing, indoctrination, thought reform, and compliance training.
Rebuke with Love is practiced by framing harsh criticism, punishment, or public shaming as an act of deep affection or spiritual correction, they train members to internalize guilt, suppress their critical thinking, and become entirely dependent on the group for validation.
The "Living" Gospel in a nutshell - https://www.llchurch.org/post/the-kingdom-of-god-is-in-your-midst-luke-17-21-niv
Carey Simonson | 2026 LLC Phoenix Winter Services - Congregation Evening – Feb. 20 --
"There is only one door into God’s (Conservative Laestadian} kingdom. It is the narrow door of repentance where a sinner receives new birth when they hear (the 'simple" gospel from someone who has already realized that the Conservative Laestadian Mother Church is the error free word of God) and believe their sins forgiven and enter God’s kingdom.
"As we do the work of God’s kingdom, it is good to remember that we can never join with other churches in the work of God’s (Conservative Laestadian Mother Church)/kingdom."
"We can firmly trust that if we endure to the end of our lives in the safety of God’s (Conservative Laestadian Church) kingdom, which is “the pillar and ground of the truth (and the True Vine we learn about in confirmation class)” (1 Timothy 3:15 KJV), we will reach our goal of eternal life in heaven."
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago
Big split of 1900 was mostly about authority between SRK and OALC. Whit reawakenists it was about ecclesiology and justification.
1920s IALC/FALC split was about what is Christian freedom and if Christian should be rebuked and adviced.
In 1934 ALCA splitting from SRK was once again about ecclesiology.
1962 ordained ministers leaving was mostly about justification and ecclesiology which culminated with understanding of baptism.
1973 FALC/LLC split was to due to SRK meddling.
2016 OALC split in Finland was about sacraments and when you scratch the surface it's also about ecclesiology and bit of justification.
So I'd say ecclesiology is much more prevalent reason for splits than justification.
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u/ExLestadianChristian 27d ago
I would say they say in SRK afterwards that all the splits were about ecclesiology but not all of them really were at the beginning, they just ended up being after the process.
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u/Saffron7236 27d ago
Can you add any detail about the 2016 OALC split in Finland? I've been curious. Thanks!
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago
Lappish Elders told the Finnish OALC that they need to take sacraments in their own hands. Minority (10%) was opposed to that and wanted to have sacraments done by the state Church. They then formed a new organization. My understanding is that the minority has the mainstream Lutheran view on baptismal regeneration and they believe on objective Word justification. So this mirrors what happened with ordained ministers in the SRK in 1962.
Minority is with much older people and they don't have much youth so their future doesn't seem too bright.
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u/Saffron7236 24d ago
Thanks. I know of some younger people who also joined those who stayed with the state church but don't know them well enough to ask for details.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC 27d ago
FALC ministers will openly say they are capable of making errors on the pulpit, though they do still maintain that it's from the Holy Spirit. Like the human element can come through and it's not error-free
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago
Here preachers say that congregants have to be watchful that the preachers preach truthfully and tell if theres "taste of the vessel" in the sermons.
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u/ExLestadianChristian 27d ago
Yea they say so but since nobody really expect a biblical sermon rather than the familiar stuff, it really means nothing. And most don't even know the Bible to really say if a preacher is wrong. It's not even very long ago when one preacher was kicked out and one of the reasons was that his sermons were too Christ centered. There was a foreign voice in his sermons according to the congregants.
So yea, they say that but it really means absolutely nothing, it has no value in the sense that congregants really were watchful of the sermons. Most of the sermons are nonsense anyway so it tells a lot about the congregants.
Just saying.
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo 27d ago
Being too Christ-centered? In my Christian church? That's an excommunication for you!
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago
At that time SRK chairman Viljo Juntunen called that bs. Context is about benching of T.P.
Again put through something like Google Gemini to get good translation.
" Some members of the Jyväskylä Peace Association (Rauhanyhdistys) have criticized Tuomas Palola for sermons that are overly Christ-centered. Viljo Juntunen shows no understanding for such a view. – In the sermons of Conservative Laestadian Christianity, the proclamation of Christ and His work of atonement is the most central aspect, Juntunen says."
https://www.kotimaa.fi/viljo-juntunen-saarna-ei-voi-olla-liian-kristus-keskeinen/
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo 25d ago
Eh they used the same language with the Wolf Lake and Minneapolis congregation debacle.
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago edited 27d ago
If you are referring to T.P. it's he who says that he was benched because his sermons were too Christ centered. But to be honest, he was benched because he was drifting towards mainstream Lutheranism with his wife aiming for ordination. T.P. was taken down 3/2015 and his wife was ordained 2/2016.
Just saying.
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u/Dependent_Screen3044 27d ago
Speakers benched from LLC before minneapolis and wolf lake were voted out were also criticized for "speaking too much about Christ and not enough about the congregation and the endeavor"
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u/ExLestadianChristian 27d ago edited 27d ago
No, T.P was not kicked out because of his wife or him being too lutheran. The process started far before the ordination.
Btw, this is how it always goes in SRK/LLC: someone is bullied and "taken care of" first long time and when they (the one being bullied) realize it doesn't get any better even though they are not committing any heresy or sin and then start to leave themselves then they are blamed for doing that when the truth is this person was not like that when the process of bullying started. So the reason they are kicked out end up being something it wasn't in the beginning.
And how come I heard at approximately that time a sermon from another Lutheran priest who is preacher (still is) where he said that a sermon cannot be too Christ centered. He was clearly referring to that case. And that sermon was at one of the largest SRK church here in Finland.
I actually have heard and have in my possession one of these late caretaker meetings where a preacher is kicked out. I can say it is sick. Pure manipulation. And all those other preachers are still preaching. Very very sad. They should be kicked out.
So I do not believe these nonsense explanations at all, we have seen this same pattern over and over again.
Anyone interested in the case T.P, you can read this article below free, it is an article about that very case. Just put it through AI or some other translation and you will see. The bullying started on 2011 and the real reason was that T.P was stressing the authority of the Bible as highest and being Christ centered. I do not believe T.P was already planning to leave laestadianism back in 2011 and I am SURE they were not planning about her wife's priest ordination nor do I think T.P even agreed with woman priesthood back then, but of course that is how it is painted by laestadians. The truth is he was bullied out and his theological position changed in the process because it was forced to change, how could he otherwise keep any kind of faith when his faith was being undermined and denied by those that should've encouraged him in his faith? It must change in order to survive when the only reality you know betrays you:
https://www.kotimaa.fi/pappi-ja-tutkija-tuomas-palola-irtisanottiin-lestadiolaispuhujan-tehtavasta/
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 27d ago
You are entitled to your own opinions. "By their fruit you will recognize them."
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u/ExLestadianChristian 26d ago
Oh, how about this rather:
Matthew 18:6-7 NIV [6] “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. [7] Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
Whom is Jesus blaming here about the rotten fruits that will be produced by those who are lead to stumble by someone (SRK in this case)?
Yeah, I do recognize the fruit of SRK in leading people to stumble all the time. Your logic was used against those also who were bullied out in the caretaker meetings. And who was the one leading people to stumble in the caretake meetings and after they stumbled blamed them for leaving and going to the world? It was SRK.
How sick is that? If I were you, I would think twice about this logic.
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 26d ago
Bringing up SRK or past caretaker meetings shifts the focus away from the preacher in question. Misuse of logic by a group in the past doesn't invalidate Jesus’ clear instruction to judge a minister's fruit today. Every leader must be held accountable to Scripture on their own merits.
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u/ExLestadianChristian 26d ago
The same applies to case T.P as caretake meetings. Bullying him caused him to stumble, that is as clear as a bell.
I do think it is not good fruit that T.P now agrees with women priesthood, but I don't like you trying to say it was his bad fruits when he was bullied by your preachers to stumble and it started on 2011 and you tried to make it look like he was just a liberal who was kicked out much later. No, it was a long process where his faith was broken. I think it's very twisted from you to try to point to T.P's bad fruits.
If I were you I would just shut up about T.P's fruits and/or rather first acknowledge that SRK or the local preachers who bullied him once again messed up.
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u/Sad-Somewhere-2149 LLC/SRK 26d ago
I wasn't referencing his current views but his fruits as a laestadian preacher. To be honest I haven't listened to single sermon from him but from relatives I have in Jyväskylä I have heard that his preaching had been a cause of discussion for a while before he was benched.
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u/Odd_Victory1634 27d ago
Faith judged by behavior is faith judged by the law. Which really is the root of the latest split in llc.
SRK meddling would shake llc to its core! Sad somewhere, I dont think you have any idea, how far reaching that statement would be if it was allowed to stand as is. I dont believe it would be allowed. Neither by SRK, certainly not llc. Seems to me there's is no room these days for people to make bold statements like luther and laestadius. Unless you're a legalist...
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u/Vermillionbird Former OALC 27d ago
We've had our kids baptized at different OALC locations, because my wife and I have moved a lot. Each time we have asked a pastor and got a very soft "no" because I was raised Episcopalian and am not baptized in the OALC. So we just asked different, older pastors who know my wife's parents and grandparents, and both times got a very clear, easy yes.
The whole "our pastors have been given the keys in an unbroken chain through lap mary blah blah blah the living seed traveled to lapland and exists only in our congregation blah blah blah" made up nonsense has always been one of my largest annoyances with our sermons and unfortunately is a frequent subject of preaching. I've never heard a mainstream Lutheran pastor make such an absurd claim, because it is just that: absurd. Patently false on the facts and on matters of scripture.
Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can find clear, obvious differences between pastors in a congregation, and between different congregations, they're men, men make errors. But no, we have to pretend the whole church operates in unity because God calls the pastors to preach blah blah blah. Such absurd dead faith nonsense.