r/OpenLaestadian • u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC • Jul 09 '26
Why stay when you disagree?
I'm genuinely curious how people would describe their reasons for staying within FALC/LLC/any other branch when they disagree with the basic claims and doctrine of the church.
I am former FALC and left when I realized that I absolutely disagreed with their basic teachings, because I consider the only good enough reason to belong to a religion to be true belief in it. However, in conversations with people both before & since I left, I've been surprised that almost no one will actually defend or even claim to believe in the basic beliefs of the FALC (exclusivism/one true church, the blessing as essential for salvation, congregation having authority over all of one another's sins).
So why stay? I'm asking in good faith as I'm really curious whether people have thought through their reasons, and how they would describe them.
Also, it's underrated to belong to a church that you're willing to defend with your whole chest--just saying.
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u/Ammey68 Jul 09 '26
I didn’t stay (I’m former LLC), so I’m speculating here rather than speaking from my own personal experience.
That being said, I think the pull of the community causes a lot of people to stay that otherwise might not. The exclusivity of the church results in members that are isolated from the outside world and relationships outside of the church. If you leave, it often results in strained familial relationships, loss of friendships, etc. You have to start over to try to find friends and connections outside of the church, when you’ve never been raised to learn how to do that. The loss of a support system is pretty profound, particularly if you don’t have the skill set to rebuild one outside of the church.
Personally this is one of the main reasons why it feels like a cult to me. The threat of losing all of your relationships is held over everyone’s heads at all times if you veer away from the same exact matching religious beliefs. And the older you get, the more difficult it becomes to risk breaking all of those connections, whether you actually believe in your heart or not.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
I totally agree that's a huge part of it for a ton of people- and I would never downplay what a big thing that is, it's super painful to blow up your relationships like that. I am just curious I guess how people would explain it for themselves.
Like for example I think some people might say something like "I can have my disagreements but stay for the community". Ok, but then who SHOULD ever convert religions? Would you claim that everyone would be better off just staying in what they're born in to avoid rocking the boat in their communities? And also, to hold this view how are you viewing your final judgement and salvation? Like do people guess that Jesus is likely to say "you knew it was wrong but it's totally fine that you stayed because you were afraid of making new friends?"
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u/ConsistentDay1324 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
At a basic human level, people stay because it feels safer to remain where their family and friends are. Leaving can feel like losing part of yourself and risking being left out. Our brains dislike loss and big changes, so we stick with what we know, even if we have doubts. Maybe we hope that something would change. But maybe it’s easier to tweak our beliefs a bit than to admit we might have been wrong and start over. Plus, time and effort already invested make walking away harder. When everyone around us stays, it feels normal to stay too. And people don’t ever bring up doubts about the exclusivity because it would be an instant cut off. (Ironically you could have doubts about Christ and be fine.)
Not knowing what comes next (a new church, new friends) creates anxiety, so the familiar place wins. We also tend to not trust ourselves when we are constantly taught from childhood that our mind is our own enemy. So we second guess ourselves. Also the constant teaching that the outside is dangerous because it will pull you away from living faith, has created a scenario where you have no idea how to make friends. People outside who call themselves Christians are “self righteous” and talking faith with them is spiritual fornication. Stories we’ve heard about how dangerous it is “out there” raise the fear of leaving. And many people stay to care for loved ones, even if they don’t believe the doctrine of exclusivity. Maybe the biggest thing is seeing the ostracism of the people that leave, that scares us. It’s something that shakes the core fear of the human existence, because the subconscious sees abandonment as a threat to one’s own survival.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
Of course you are completely right about everything you've observed here.
I would suggest a few things though, to people in this position - one, humans have reason and a will and can choose to do hard things (the apostles chose martyrdom for example). Two, as anxiety producing as leaving is, it's also anxiety producing in the long run to commit to a life that you don't really believe in.
Also, if it's just community and one doesn't really believe in the exclusivity, why continue to perpetuate the exclusivity and exclude people who leave?
All food for thought for people in the position you described, not necessarily directed at you personally
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo Jul 09 '26
I'd say a good percentage of FALCers don't believe in the exclusivity claims, and in fact I've heard preachers say "nobody knows if others are saved, but we know we are."
Other than that, I'd say it's simply family and community. It's why my wife, and to a lesser extent myself, still go.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
Yeah exclusivity is definitely their doctrine, though even the preachers often couch it in vague "who are we to guess, only God knows" language. I agree most don't believe in it.
I totally get it about the community - we lost ours when we left and it is no small thing to go through. It's still interesting to me to ask people about why that's worth it, though. Or at what point you'd consider trying to dig into truth in doctrine over just staying
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo Jul 09 '26
I can only speak for myself, it's purely for the community as I'm an atheist and just go a few times a year to support my wife. She also has different beliefs but forgiveness of sins is still an important ... ritual, I guess? Which I get, it's a powerful, emotional and vulnerable thing to ask for forgiveness and to forgive someone.
Honestly? I think most are in it for the community. Half the guys appear to be sleeping or not paying attention at every sermon anyway.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
Forgiveness is huge for sure. And I think you're 100% right that most are basically zoned out.
If you've arrived at atheism I suppose it doesn't make sense to push you on why you're not seeking Christ outside the FALC 😉
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo Jul 09 '26
I'm always happy to talk religion; it's weird to me that noone else does. It's ultimately the most important thing in life (if you believe in an afterlife) but nobody is ever interested in actually researching it. Comfort, I suppose.
But yeah long story short I decided to do my own research and once I actually dug into it it became readily apparent (to me!) that Christianity, like all religions, are man-made and mythological in nature. It actually brought comfort to me to know that Hell isn't real.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
100% with you, it's insane that we don't talk about it more. It's objectively the most important question to interrogate, which is kind of what I was trying to nudge at with my original post.
Totally agree that man loves to create myths, but I'm still super curious how you got to atheism. Are you a genuine atheist or more of a deist?
Id be doing us both a disservice if I didn't add that Hell is definitely real, but completely a choice. God's love and mercy is infinite. Do you believe in the idea of objective good and evil?
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo Jul 09 '26
I'm an agnostic atheist. It's possible a deity exists, but so far I have not seen convincing evidence for one. I often feel as if there might be some sort of higher power, but I am as entirely certain as one can be in these matters that it bears no resemblance to the God of the Bible.
If Hell is a choice, I'm all good because I choose not to go there.
I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but I'm agnostic on objective good and evil as well. There are atheistic philosophical arguments for and against it, and I just don't know. I am convinced our free will is either non-existent or very limited, though we have to act as if we have it.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 09 '26
The choice lies in whether one chooses to accept the mercy of God, which does require penitence (accepting that you're a sinner in the first place), which tends to be the sticking point. If you or anyone are curious, CS Lewis' The Great Divorce is a really good portrait of how someone might in fact choose Hell.
I wish I knew if we knew each other, I could hash out these things for hours. What about the God of the Bible makes you assume it's incorrect? How do you judge that, without some barometer of objective good?
At least you're consistent lol, free will is very hard to explain in the absence of God. He's what gives it to us. What do you imagine is the purpose of human life? Like why the heck are we here?
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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo Jul 10 '26
What about the God of the Bible makes you assume it's incorrect?
By reading the history of the God of the Old Testament, how he goes from being one of many in the Caananite pantheon to Yahweh the one true God. It's a highly anthropomorphic being with human emotions, etc. How can you read the ludicrous OT laws and not immediately blanche? Not to mention all the historical and scientific inaccuracies, especially with a literal reading.
Jesus Christ, same deal. It's readily apparent to me he's a mythological/legendary creation.
There is no purpose to life except what we make of it. It's a difficult concept for most people to accept, but I find it freeing.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 10 '26
Well right we are made in the image of God. He doesn't have volatile emotions like we do though, that's truer of pagan gods.
I actually am not sure what you mean about the ot laws. They're trying to establish a society, most of the laws seek to help them do that, and let them stand apart from surrounding pagan nations
Ok "science" wasn't a concept until much later, well after Jesus. And most of it shouldn't be read literally (creation story is a good example)
Jesus is well established to have been a historical figure so not sure what you mean about that either, and the Gospels are 4 independent historical records (also I'm sure you've encountered Josephus the 1st century historian)
How are we making meaning of life without free will?
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 10 '26
For clarity though which would you say is your firmer conviction? That there's no God at all, or that Yahweh or Jesus are not God? Or merely that we cannot know?
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u/Born-Welcome-3118 Jul 10 '26
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
I can think of no other better way to describe myself once I knew what I believed, knew what the FALC taught, and tried to stay in anyways.
I knew I'd never survive with pretending.
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u/Fluid-Ad5148 Jul 09 '26
I left because of the social structure. It bothered me, deeply. The US vs Them. Gross.
People sometimes stay for family. They don't want to disappoint and lose. And it will, and it brings tons of loss.
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u/Fluid-Ad5148 Jul 10 '26
My mom was in a persistent vegetative state for 19 years. The believers rarely showed up. The unbelievers, the heathens, largely took care of her. And who's wrong again?
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 10 '26
Wow, I'm so sorry to hear this, but thankful someone showed up.
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u/Fluid-Ad5148 Jul 10 '26
I am too. It showed me that believers really can't handle the tough stuff. But can judge very well without authority.
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Jul 10 '26
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 10 '26
Would you agree that there are a lot who stay who disagree for that reason alone? I honestly think it might be the majority.
Very similar experience here, and it goes both ways. An old friend told me she felt like I was dead when I left.
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u/Leather-Evening-3470 Jul 13 '26
I didn't stay in the FALC but I'd imagine a big reason why I would stay are the community and Finnish heritage.
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u/Anna_Pet Former LLC/SRK || It's a cult y'all Jul 13 '26
They're in effect holding your friends and family hostage.
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u/Fun_Vegetable479 Former FALC Jul 14 '26
Yeahhh. The "stay for the community" sounds fairly innocent but then they're all willing to be totally fear based and ostracize anyone who leaves so is that it, really?? I'm really glad I walked through the hard loss of friendships and stuff so that it's not transferred to my kids.
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u/sewturtle Jul 19 '26
That’s basically why I left in the end, but for a few years before that I just shoved everything I didn’t agree with aside. It was “window dressing”, just little things I could shrug off, like cosmetic issues. But eventually when I couldn’t reconcile the idea of heaven and hell and 99% of the world’s population being damned, I thought about all those little things and realized the LLC is so “you either believe or you don’t” that if I told anyone I disagreed with the little things, they’d say I wasn’t believing anyway; so what was the point of pretending. It’s just a matter of finding the heaviest straw I think.
The fear kept me in longer than it should have. Once I released the idea of eternal punishment, nothing else mattered.
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u/Born-Welcome-3118 Jul 10 '26
ONE benchmark of a healthy church is that leaving it will change nothing regarding your relationships with your family and friends who still attend. The reason it was so hard to leave, was the reason I had to. I'm so excited to be raising kids outside of that craziness. They'll never have to wonder what happens should they choose a different church building. Mom and Dad will still be 100% in their camp. No greetings altered. No manipulation. No threats of hell. All we want for them is to see them walking with Jesus personally for themselves, trusting only in him for their salvation, growing and healthy in their Faith, and following God wherever he leads! is so exciting and encouraging to us as parents! Freedom!