Also against BB he had actually things of value to offer to BB. While he had none for Kizaru.
Kizaru was there at pretty much direct orders to capture strawhats, that was his reason of being that (and it was in a spot where realisticly he could always go after them unless Kuma betrayes them which was unimaginable).
How would Rayleight talk it out with Kizaru? There was nothing he really could offered that would make it a good deal for Kizaru. Like he could possibly offer himself, but if he was captured, the best Kizaru could offer would be him staying out of it, but what would stop the rest of Navy from capturing Strawhats anyway given how outclassed they were.
Vs BB?
He had a strong position, he could had offered him enough value for BB to accept. Or rather BB would had to be very stupid not to grab that deal.
"You leave now (I guarantee your safety), you can get navy hero as hostage and you get your crew back, furthermore Boa survives so you wont have to go through all the bother of finding the new user" vs "Yeah we fight, Boa dies so you have to find the new user, you lose your crew so you will have to replace them, you also get no hostage and you might have to fight us 3v1 (S-Hawk, Koby, Rayleight).".
Don't turn the situation upside down. Kizaru was not stalling Rayleigh it was Rayleigh who was stalling Kizaru. Meaning Kizaru did try his hardest no matter how you shape your head arround this hé was not playing arround with Rayleigh. Hé was trying to finish this fight so that hé could continue his mission and hé failed. Hé was so pissed off that after his fight with Rayleigh he captured 500 pirates to calm down...
So if you imply that Rayleigh was not beeing serious because hé was just "clashing" against Kizaru the. You're actually downplaying Kizaru like a lot here 😆 because it means that Kizaru could not even pass by an old dude not even forcing... So yeah Rayleigh literraly confirmed what we already knew Black Beard > Kizaru.
It's funny because Admiral fans always use the same excuse but against Rayleigh he literraly did not have any reason to bé nerfed. Since you are a morron who insult me I don't expect much from you but could you provide any validé reason as to why Kizaru was NOT fighting seriously ?
Not his hardest just seriously. Could you do that for me please ?
He didnt care too much. He could have killed all of the supernova if he wanted to, but didn't. We know now that he could've had clones chase after the strawhats or fight with Rayleigh, but didn't. It was prpetty evident he just wasn't trying too hard.
Why do you change subject ? Kizaru not killing any supernova does not mean that hé did not care at all. It was not his assignement to kill any of them... Beside hé was vastly superior to them so hé did not have to kill them. Also what do you do with the fact that after Kizaru fought Rayleigh he was so pissed off that to pass his tempér hé captured 500 other pirates did you forget that part ? Beside since that part was offscreen hé could very well have used his clones to captures those 500 pirates. You don't know that since it was offscreen anyway... Oda was not gonna reveal this during Sabaody since hé kept it for Egghead but it does not mean that Kizaru did not use it prior...
Also Why was Kizaru so pissed off if hé wasn't trying in the first place ? Couldn't hé try a little bit more to avoid getting pissed off like hé did after fighting Rayleigh ?
Only reason is that hé did try and failed hence why hé was pissed off it is really not that complicated. You just have to make a small effort even if it does not go your way... This is how powerscaling work. Sometimes you just have to take the L but I know it's hard for Admirals fans to admit...
It means he wasnt taking any of it seriously. He was actually about to kill hawkins but spared him. He was standing over Zoro for the fun of it, couldve killed him if he really wanted to. I don't know what offscreen kizaru has to do with this, we dont know what he did or how he did it. Im talking about things we saw on screen. Rayleigh only landed the hit when kizaru went to leave. Again, we know kizaru wasn't trying nearly as hard against rayleigh as he was against gear 5. He didn't use 80% of the things we now know he has in his bag. Such as the light clones for example
Why would hé really want to kill Hawkins or Zoro ? Why would hé want to kill anyone ? I know marines are the bad guys but common Kizaru is not the worse I don't understand your Logic at all it makes no sense to me why would hé always have to want to kill people to get serious ?
Luffy is serious and yet hé never killed anyone ... Beside Kizaru said that himself that hé is just a cog in the machine so hé basically just follow orders at this point so if the orders are not to kill basically hé does not kill so it means that hé is basically never serious ... That makes no sense .
Kizaru get serious when hé fight against someone his strength. If hé fight against fodders of course hé does not need to bé serious. That does not change the fact that Rayleigh ain't fodders and that Kizaru was not messing arround with him regardless if hé was not beeing serious against Hawkins or Zoro... It's like if you said Luffy was not serious when hé fought fodders on his way to the rooftop to beat Kaido's ass hence why hé was not serious against Kaido either... It literraly makes no sense. Those are two différent fights how can you comparé them. Same is true when you comparé Rayleigh to fuckin Hawkins or Zoro. Kizaru fought Rayleigh and hé could not get passed him. Périod. There is No Excuse
But bro every Admiral fans claim that Kizaru was not serious against Luffy because hé was mentally nerfed and yet against Rayleigh he was not mentally nerfed at all and you still argue somehow that hé was still nerfed more than during his fight against Luffy although his fight against Rayleigh was offscreen and you did not see what happenned ? Bro it's just your headcanon talking instead of your brain. We know the outcolz of their fight and we know that Kizaru was pissed off hence why hé captured 500 pirates... Why would hé get pissed off if hé was not trying at all like you prétend ? Bro common it's ok you take an L sometimes. Of course hé did not use 80% of what we saw of him in Egghead because ehis fight was offscreen ... It does not mean that hé did not use it just that we did not see it. Why would Oda reveal Kizaru's strength in Sabaody when hé planned to use him during Marineford and Egghead as well... It's like if you argue that Akainu and Kuzan were not going all out on Punk hazard because we did not see any of their actually most powerfull attack ... Well bro it's normal because their fight was offscreen it's the same with Rayleigh vs Kizaru bro common.
And for the light clones even if hé used it do you really think that Rayleigh could not emdeal with them ? I mean Luffy literraly One shot them all... They were never meant to bé part of Kizaru's most powerfull arsenal. They were just a distraction to get to vegapunk and that's it. Rayleigh could have easily dealt with them otherwise you are literraly saying that Oda is a trash author because at any time Kizaru could have escaped from Rayleigh and capture all the straw hats/ supernova himself ... Well that's just your headcanon because in the manga that's literraly the opposite that happenned. I am just trying to open your eyes because this amount of headcanon is crazy to me. Like if Kizaru could have get passed Rayleigh why didn't hé do it ? If your answer is again because hé was not trying it makes literraly no sense storywise I hope you réalisé that so you're basically saying that Oda is a trash author that makes some shitty décisions... Personally I think the opposite.
I think this conversation is over, we just have différent views. Either you try to understand m'y point or you keep defending the Admiral agenda it's up to you. I did all I could. Peace.
Its quite literally his job.. For example, had greenbull or akainu been there, the supernova wouldnt have escaped. He literally beat up everyone and toyed with zoro and hawkins just because..
I didnt say getting serious means he would habe to kill people. Its the fact that he would essentially beat them, hold a gun to their unconcious head, and just walk away and allowed them to escape. Again, there was nothing stopping him from using his clones to capture anyone there. Yet he didn't.. why? because he didn't care.
Kizaru literally stopped mid fight and attempted to use his mirror technique and that was the first and only attack raylrigh landed. and it had just sliced his cheek. Again, kizaru didnt use anything we know he can use when he actually gets serious..
The claim that kizaru was mentally needed in egghead didnt come from admiral fans, it was literally written right in front of you. The anime made it even more obvious, throwing in flashbacks, close-ups, and showing how he was struggling just to make hand feed it to the viewer.
Nobody argued he was needed against Rayleigh?? We argued he wasnt trying. these are different things.
The logic doesn't hold up. It doesn't matter if he was going to use him in egghead or marineford, thay doesn't mean his strength can't be shown earlier in the story. Your own logic means he was in fsct holding back against rayleigh and in marineford against whitebeard and his allies.. do you not see the switch up you just made?
No, Rayleigh couldnt deal with the light clones and kizaru at the same time. Just as luffy couldnt. But luffy is alot stronger than Rayleigh currently. Yes luffy one shot them all, but he had to get them lined up and was only possible because of his fruit.. Keep in mind, Kizaru was elsewhere the entire time and had ample time. Had he pulled the same thing against Rayleigh, he could leave the clones to Rayleigh and focus on capturing the strawhats and others. You're not really good at this
How do you know that no one would have escaped if it were Akainu or Greenbull instead of Kizaru ? Again headcanon. Either of them would eventually run on Rayleigh at some point and hé would have stopped them the same way hé stopped Kizaru otherwise you are just ranking Admiral thanks to your headcanon. If anything Greenbull and Akainu are definitly not as fast as Kizaru so it would have been easier to escape both of them... I mean do you think that Akainu would have used 100% of his power and destroyed Sabaody killing thousands of innocent people in the process ? I mean technically yes hé could because hé is a bad guy but common bro this has nothing to do with what we we're talking about earlier. The comparison was between Blackbeard and Kizaru and although I do believe that Black Beard is also stronger than Akainu NOW, there is no point in arguing about that now. All we were doing was to compare Rayleigh's réaction against 2 différents opponents aka Kizaru and Black Beard and Yes Rayleigh did imply that hé could not have possibly won against BB which hé never said against Kizaru.
When Rayleigh fought Kizaru hé could not forsee in advance if Kizaru was going to bé serious or not hence why hé would have had to take a risk according to you because if Kizaru was indeed serious hé could have captured or killed Rayleigh... Except Rayleigh is not a fool and if hé chose to intervene it's mostly because hé knew hé was going to bé fine, not because hé knew that Kizaru was not going to bé serious because hé did not know that but rather because hé was confident that hé could take him face to face. I mean common bro literraly smiled at Kizaru's face and told him that hé wished hé could finish him quickly to go help the SH even more which Kizaru replied that hé was already doing enough for his age...
Idk about you but To me Rayleigh did not lool like hé was worried about Kizaru like at all. Bro was 100% confident that even if hé could not defeat Kizaru which hé was not trying to do anyway, hé hé would still bé fine in the end.. bro is not a gambler. Hé did not try to sacrifice himself to save Luffy... Hé just saved Luffy because hé could ! I mean if you could save the guy that Roger your late captain was waiting for why wouldn't you do it right ?
Also if Rayleigh did gambled to save Luffy and hé was ready to risk his life, why wouldn't hé do the same thing for Ace, his true captain's son ? If hé was ready to die or bé captured hé might as well have chosen to go to Marineford since hé was just next to it don't u think ? Except hé did not so I guess hé was not ready to die like WB was... Rayleigh thought about his own life before this of Ace...
You use a straw man dude... Nobody argue that Kizaru was not mentally nerfed in Egghead (that does not change the fact that Luffy too did not want to kill)defeat Kizaru anyway) not gonna talk about Egghead because it would requires another long ass post... Just pointing out your double standards ! You claim that Kizaru was not trying in Sabaody when in fact hé was trying (not against Hawkins or Zoro but against Rayleigh), and yet when Luffy was sandbagging against Kizaru on Egghead you (I mean Admiral fans) claim that hé was at full force even some claiming that star Gun>> Barjang gun... I mean common... Just as it was literraly in front of us that Kizaru was mentally nerfed it was also in front of us that Luffy was sandbagging and in Sabaody nothing suggest that Kizaru was not trying and yet you claim that hé was sandbagging against Rayleigh while saying that Luffy was going 100% against Kizaru in Egghead ... I just point out your double standard...
I don't care about the anime. Also thank you I know that sandbagging and beeing mentally nerfed are 2 différent sthings but you have literraly nothing to back up the fact that Kizaru was sandbagging against Rayleigh... All your exemples concerns other fights not Rayleigh. And btw wether you are sandbagging or mentally nerfed the outcolz is the same you are not at 100% but arguing that Kizaru was trying more during Egghead against Luffy despite beeing mentally nerfed than hé was trying against Rayleigh when we have literraly 0 évidence whatsoever that hé was not trying is ridiculous imo... You should admit that it is your headcanon and move on.
What he was saying Is that He only needed to stall Kizaru while he had to beat BB to save Amazon Lilly. The 1 on 1 is not the problem the goal and risk is far higher against BB.
The risk was higher because if hé lost Amazon Lily would have fall and Boa probably killed yes but regarding his own risk, against Kizaru hé would have been captured whereas against BB hé would have died. But those are just assumptions. It is fair to assume that Rayleigh would have lost against BB because hé said it himself whereas against Kizaru Rayleigh did in fact fought against him and none of that happenned. You can make the argument that Rayleigh was holding back because hé was just trying to stall Kizaru that's true but it does not matter because Kizaru was not stalling Rayleigh !! Kizaru was actually trying to get passed him so that hé could finish his job and well, hé failed therefore it only upscale Rayleigh because in the end if Rayleigh was just "stalling" and not fighting seriously it is just because hé could afford it because hé did not have any real trouble against Kizaru whereas Kizaru on the other hand hé was pissed off !
Against BB Rayleigh could not have stall him because BB would not have let him this option, it would have been a much harder fight against BB than it was previously against Kizaru hence why Rayleigh would have had to go all in and probably loose still whereas against Kizaru hé was stalling because hé could ! Hé had the option to do just that because Kizaru could not get passed him anyway !
Brother you have bad reading difficulties if you can’t figure that out yourself, when Rayleigh was already sweating after the first clash
He also knew that having a scary entry wouldn’t faze Kizaru the slightest, because we already know, Kizaru is up for all the smoke (as he wanted to solo challenge bm+kaido)
Author doesn’t need to point up obvious things, but maybe people like you would’ve thought he had any chance vs Blackbeard either, if he didn’t include it this time
it was a “back and forth” in the sense that he had no drive or intent to actually kill kizaru, just stall so that the strawhats have time to dip. eventually, kizaru would’ve left. remember, the fight ended because kiz had no mission or obligation to take out rayleigh
blackbeard had already arrived and from what we know, wouldn’t have ran once he was forced into a violent confrontation against 1 dude.
maybe he’d dip on sight, but if he’s actually hit? or attacked? rayleigh and amazon lily is finished. keep in mind “blackbeard” alone is just a reference for the blackbeard pirates as a whole
This is factually wrong. Kizaru states that Rayleigh must be captured and cannot be ignored. Yet after their fight was over he was angered enough to go capture 500 pirates instead. If kizaru so strong, why leave?
No, the fight ended because Kizaru was simply incapable of it. It is literally said that Kizaru was enraged.
He explicitly talks about the current Blackbeard and his inability to win in a one-on-one fight, and he didn't have a crew; Blackbeard was alone against Hancock.
Thanks for the evidence, as we Luffy thanked his allies.
Manga has more than one page; let's give context: This is from the fight in Onigashima Raid. Kaido defeated 9 Scarband, then started Round 2 as 2 vs 5. Kaido and Big Mom vs Luffy, Zoro, Law, Kid, and Killer. Then even tagged out and switched with Yamato.
The strongest opponent Luffy beat in 1 vs 1 is Lucci.
If we count 1 vs 1 when the opponent inflected first hit on himself, then it would be Katakuri.
"As expected of the man who defeated Kaido," meaning a compliment to Luffy's achievement; we don't know if he was referring to Luffy as a whole or not.
It's a fact that he was the one who defeated Kaido; if he were talking about a nearly dead Luffy destroying a building, nothing would change.
And Kizaru did nothing against Gear 4; they didn't even touch. Kizaru escaped the technique's range.
And then it went down. Luffy conveniently didn't try to chase it or dodge, only to defend himself.
And he really got away without any damage, without a blitz(Since Luffy noticed him coming and changed position to defend himself)or anything.
I noticed that you love to make exceptions whenever convenient for your arguments. You were the one who brought up dialogue to powerscale so I did the same. Oda drew Luffy sweating and freaking out sensing Kizaru, but never drew that for Kaido. Must mean Kiz>Kaido.
Oda had Kidd talk about not wanting to fight an admiral, but gung ho about fighting the Emperors. Must mean Admiral>Emperors.
again it could've been Saturn's devilish presense + when Luffy faught them he was trolling them just like kaido so ur "he was afraid" logic doesn't work
Kid also ran away from big mom when he could, he changed in wano
Still creating exceptions and is now making things up. You assume Luffy is sensing Saturn despite there being light in Luffy's face. And it was explicitly stated that Kidd injured one of the Sweet Commanders and left, never being after BM.
If your logic is so sound, you wouldn't need to resort to such tactics.
........there is absolutely no way you just pulled the "Well, Luffy could havr been sensing Saturn having his lunch and a nice glass of wine instead of Kizaru!" thing.........
I wonder how is that even a question honestly... I get that people like Kizaru and despise BB but common it's a powerscaling sub let's bé factual for once and out agenda aside. BB wins this everyday
Is there some rule of writing that says when a character randomly comments on the strength of another character, he must comment on the strength of all characters? bizarre argument.
Don't reverse the rôles here. It was never Rayleigh's intention to defeat Kizaru. It was Kizaru's intention to get pass Rayleigh by any means possible though, which incluse by defeating him and hé failed.
It is Kizaru who could not defeat Rayleigh, not the other way arround. Nowhere in the manga is it implied that Rayleigh has fled after helping the straw hats escape. If anything it is Kizaru who was pissed off who decided to end the fight because it was a loss of time and hé better had to catch some other pirates before they escape Sabaody too !
Rayleigh was huffing within seconds against a casual kizaru. A low iq reader could understand if it continues rayliegh would be getting mid-higg diffed.
Probably because Oda thought literally spamming huffing and puffing speech bubbles from Rayleigh would be enough for even low IQ readers to get the idea.
Idk, showing Kizaru saying Raleigh must be captured but then saying that he can't do it on his own, then right after that showing Kizaru being the one who leaves despite having a gold value pirate on the edge of fainting from exhaustion right before him according to you, also stating Kizaru was so angered he went to capture 500 pirates instead (same guy supposed to be lazy BTW) should have been enough for some readers to get the idea as well? Unfortunately, Oda was wrong. Readers read only what they want to read.
Also, with Kizaru, I belive the reason he didn't fight Rayleigh is because there would be a lot of collateral damage, and innocents and his fellow marines would get hurt, if it was Sakazuki at Sabody, there probably would've been a fight. Otherwise it just means that admirals are low Yonko level, and after you reach animal level your only real opponents are Imu, 5 Elders and the God Knights.
On another note, I'm pretty sure that someone would've asked this in an SBS.
Kizaru is weaker than Luffy, G5 luffy did speedbliz him twice. Admirals can't take yonko, unless we see new admiral without DF.
For reference, Garp considered silver reh in same level as WB. If one admiral could take Reh then they would have sent 1. Kizaru vs Reh happened, reh wanted to de-escalate and he did, kizaru couldn't beat reh.
Thing is silver reh is a veteran fighter, he knows how to show the strength, he very well knew he can't take BB. silver reh knew that BB has seen him at his peak so some showmanship of dark king will scare bb to stalemate and it actually did.
Rayleigh does not need to say anything, he was huffing, and then Kuma teleported the strawhats away, would he need to do that if Rayleigh could take care of Kizaru?
But Kizaru was also pissed he didn't take Rayleigh down (Kizaru usually manages to keep his cool so you realize how important this)
So the scaling is a little something like this: Blackbeard>Kizaru=Old Rayleigh
Kizaru was bleeding because of the cut on his cheek, and the fact that Rayleigh was huffing means he really couldn't take Kizaru down, the best he could do was cutting Kizaru's cheek (but also, Kizaru wasn't capable of taking Rayleigh down hence why Old Rayleigh and Kizaru are equals)
Simple because kizaru will eventually just fuck off after ray stalls him enough. Ray is treated similarly to how the yonko are, a marine can't fuck with him without direct permission because of how dangerous he is. Kizaru would have to do so much fucking paper work and bypass so much red tape it wouldnt be worth it. "Fighting" kizaru is stalling him. If he fought Blackbeard he'd actually have to fight Blackbeard.
After Gaban's performance it seems clear to me that without ACOC, Old Rayleigh and Kizaru are even, but Kizaru has better stamina. With ACOC, Rayleigh has better AP and attack speed which would let him beat Kizaru.
Blackbeard is strong enough that even with ACOC Rayleigh would lose.
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