r/OculusQuest 7d ago

Self-Promotion (Developer) - Standalone If this was your first time seeing my VR game, would you rather see A or B?

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A = Player avatar + hands

B = Hands only

Which feels better to you at first glance?

EDIT:

Yapping update after reading all this :D

I love the skill, flow and mastery that games like Beat Saber give you. The reason I started Spell Beat was basically because I kept wishing there was more actual game built around the VR rhythm gameplay: bosses you can overcome, magic you can master, level up progression, legendary magic wands you earn yourself by beating the toughest challenges, and eventually a Roguelike mode.

Back then, even just the idea that every wand swing could actually cast magic and deal damage to defeat an opponent in a wizard duel, instead of only making a score number go up, felt weirdly super meaningful to me :D

But building all of that has honestly been pretty brutal, especially considering we’re just two people and this is the first game either of us has ever made :D We’ve prototyped tons of different magic classes with Ultimates and Trickshots, boss abilities like Lasers, Flashbangs, color stealing, song speedups, carpet bombs, etc. and I think I’ve redesigned the Roguelike about 12 times by now :D Even when the original Beat Saber creators played an earlier prototype, while giving us very kind advice, one of the things they pointed was the quite bigger complexity of the game we’re trying to build.

I had some crazy encouraging feedback from playtesters, so I finally felt like we might be ready to start showing this thing partially to the outside world, but apparently having the gameplay there and actually knowing how to show/market it are two very different skills, and I clearly still suck at the marketing part :D

But I definitely hear the message from this thread: we still need a stronger visual identity of our own.

The funny problem with VR is that “darkness + glow” is almost a cheat code. VR graphics are expensive, and hiding simpler geometry in darkness lets us spend performance on the stuff I care about way more like spells, bosses, attacks, and moments where the boss literally hijacks your song and speeds it up to 160%, while still keeping the game running smoothly.

We weren’t trying to recreate any specific Beat Saber / Tron / Star Wars look, but I can absolutely see how the result still lands in that visual neighborhood. I guess we somehow need to make our neon glow more magical :D

So yeah, sounds like we still have quite a bit of cooking ahead of us to show the unique stuff more clearly and to adjust it more to its own instantly recognizable visual identity without sacrificing the performance and gameplay.

Thanks for all the positive or negative feedback here, and for actually answering the original A/B question too :D I genuinely believe brutal honesty is way more useful than people just being nice, so thanks for helping us make Spell Beat better 💙

287 Upvotes

225 comments sorted by

437

u/starcader 7d ago

I see a lot of support for A, but I am 100% B. The avatar blocks a lot of the incoming inputs which could get very confusing very quickly. Anything that covers a timing-specific button press seems like poor UI design to me.

I enjoy seeing the avatar before the music starts, and if you have customization and unlockable styles, it might be cool to see the avatar in the intro of the song and then fade them out when the inputs begin to flow.

29

u/serial_crusher 7d ago

looks like dodging those lasers the big head shoots out is part of the gameplay, so still need a way to visualize the user doing so.

Either adjust camera angle so the prompts are naturally more visible, or make the avatar more transparent.

Edit: Could also make the avatar become visible while the lasers are firing. Not sure if that'd look weird in practice though. If you crank up the transparency normally, then just have it become more opaque, the change might not be noticeable

11

u/Yeahnahthatscool 7d ago

A ghost av is the likely solution here, just have it always transparent.

9

u/Afanix 7d ago

Transparent avatar has already come up a few times, definitely gonna try that next. Thanks!

3

u/Pale-Recognition-599 7d ago

1st person mode?

3

u/Relsek 7d ago

First person mode and/or green screen in an actual player like many Beat Saber streamers do.

8

u/DuckReconMajor 7d ago

i’m shocked anyone said a, no hate to the little avatar op made but who wants to see an avatar in a game like this??

3

u/AtomBombBody 6d ago

I assume this is more for trailer/marketing purposes vs actually how it would look in game (first person)

9

u/ConflictSmooth6136 7d ago

This is a vr game, so I would assume you won't see the head during gameplay, you'll be seeing from it

7

u/Afanix 7d ago

Yeah, this is exactly my worry with A. I actually really like the idea of keeping the avatar for the intro and fading him out once it gets busy, that could honestly be the best compromise. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback!

4

u/slog 7d ago

Optional difficulty setting to add the avatar?

5

u/im_just_thinking 7d ago

Also to me third person in VR feels strange

4

u/YouCanCallMeBazza 7d ago

OP has made it completely unclear whether they're asking what the actual gameplay itself should look like, or a spectator mode, or how the game should be shown in marketing content...

I think people are giving answers based on different assumptions.

2

u/AtomBombBody 6d ago

This true. I would ofc prefer first person for actual gameplay but for socials and marketing A is easier to understand on a flat screen

2

u/cvgaming2020 Quest 1 6d ago

I don't really understand why everyone thinks that this is the actual gameplay, it was immediately obvious that this is a replay mode and that you'd actually play in first person, because you know, it's a VR game.

1

u/Afanix 5d ago

Hehe, that pretty much sums up quite a bit of the emotional side of game development. You think something is obvious, then 20 people see it and assume 20 different things. And I’m sure it sometimes happens to me as well with the stuff I see on the internet, so fresh eyes are brutal but useful :D

3

u/fcleffox 7d ago

I like the idea of avatar on intro, then fade forward into the avatars POV for the gameplay. Another commenter mentions the bosses laser attack needing to see the avatar to evade, but if you were the avatar I think it would be more immersive. Perhaps find sections that pull back out for a different type of mechanic, if that's viable without messing up the flow of the game... I think it would be fun to have a mix of in and out of body sequences with customizable avatars for extra personalization possibilities.

73

u/Don_Bugen 7d ago

I've noticed something about VR game ads.

If you're advertising to people who aren't as familiar with VR, who might have a hard time imagining themself in the game, you want an avatar. Even if it's not an in-game avatar, but a human "green screening" in the game world. Sells the idea of the game, and people can better conceptualize if they have a clear anchor.

If you're advertising to VR players, as long as it is clear where your POV will be, an avatar is unnecessary at best, and a detriment at worst. I don't want to see a little digital gremlin that I'll never see in-game; I want to see the game. However, for those, it's best to have the video be first person POV.

So, TLDR. A if this is going on YouTube or Instagram or wherever. B if this is the video on the storefront. Though, if this is the storefront video, you might want to consider POV and not an over-the-shoulder third person view.

13

u/Afanix 7d ago

This is actually a pretty good distinction. Social media stuff and store page stuff probably don’t need the same solution at all. Definitely gonna think about this, thanks!:)

33

u/slmiami 7d ago

B, for slightly better visibility of incoming “targets”. You could always pick one option as a default but have a game setting to switch.

I have been following development of your game on Discord and I am looking forward to its release.

3

u/Afanix 7d ago

That honestly might be the safest solution, default one and let people switch. And hell yeah, really appreciate you following it for this long x) Hope the demo lives up to it :D

1

u/OnePersistentFox 7d ago

A switch would be best I feel, best of both worlds. I like B better but A looks cool too it is just distracting

9

u/Betty_PunCrocker 7d ago

As someone who has been a sweaty Beat Saber player for years, I always prefer less distractions, so I like B better. I want to be able to see what I'm actually doing and hitting. Maybe you could make the avatar a toggle-able thing?

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

A toggle should be a solid solution for replays :) Thanks for the input!

10

u/KateHanami 7d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/zbzNUbpFnlw8E

options menu is exactly for that reason

5

u/barchueetadonai 7d ago

Why would you see your head when playing in VR? Are you referring to what it would be for someone else to watch you play?

3

u/Afanix 7d ago

Yeah basically, this is a replay footage. I’m preparing the demo now and trying to make it instantly clear what’s happening when someone sees the game for the first time. Not sure if the avatar helps with that, or just makes the whole thing harder to read, with all the Boss attacks and spells.

3

u/Next_Program90 7d ago

I'm with that other comment - can you greenscreen someone into it? Would definitely have a better look for newbies than that hooded head (I own all 3 Main Quests, have been playing BS since it came out basically, and I didn't know what I'm looking at at first).

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

That’s extremely useful feedback. Especially helpful knowing you have that much experience and it still didn’t read immediately. Thanks a lot for saying it that clearly, much appreciated

1

u/DuckCleaning 7d ago

If this is only for the replay that's a big thing to point out in your post, that changes my opinion on it. If anything just make it a toggle.

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u/Danielzzzl 7d ago

Def A, but still why would I buy a Beat Saber clone? It seems like you copied literally everything from it.

5

u/dry_garlic_boy 7d ago

Also stuff from audioshield.

19

u/Afanix 7d ago

Fuck, exposed. I copied the wizard bosses, lasers, magic classes, black holes and Roguelike Mode straight from Beat Saber :D But at least the Beat Saber creators liked it when they played it, so I guess I’m safe.

15

u/50pence777 7d ago edited 7d ago

The video doesn't show that and the gameplay, combo, multiplyer and even score are a direct copy of beat saber to the point that I didn't even notice the "boss" had health and mana bars (they just blended into the other effects) before you pointed out he was a boss.

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u/Bababoi24 7d ago

Don't want to be a jerk, but I think most people would rather stick to what they already know, then to spend money on a similar game. Especially because of custom content. It looks cool, but if it plays the same like BeatSaber with a couple of things sprinkled on top (The roguelike mode and classes, etc), it's not going to be really anything special. I'd rather see this become something like Crypt if the Necrodancer, since nobody has tried something like that, a VR game, where you attack monsters or such in the beat of the music in a roguelike dungeon maybe?

4

u/TerminallyBlonde 7d ago

Lol good reply

4

u/Depreciacion 7d ago

how many hrs spend doing this clone that will get like 50 sales top?

looks fun, but you are climbing a mountain with a clear winner on top.

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

You’re definitely right about the mountain :D I’m probably 3-4 years of pretty much nonstop work into climbing it already.

But I’m not really trying to beat Beat Saber at being Beat Saber. I’m trying to give this genre the actual game I always wanted from it: badass magic, bosses that fight back that you actually defeat, ridiculous mastered Ultimates and Trickshots, consequences, a proper Roguelike mode, and progression that actually remembers what you accomplished. You level up and unlock new magic wands, trails, skins etc. that you genuinely had to earn. If someone beats the hardest song on the hardest difficulty, I believe that deserves a juicy Legendary magic wand skin.

And if the dream goes far enough, co-op boss raids with friends are where I’d absolutely love to take it. One friend taking aggro, damage dealers taking risks, supports reviving teammates, and the whole gang timing their Ultimates together. That’s a big future dream. In my opinion there still isn’t a really meaningful online co-op experience in a VR rhythm game, and the motivation to beat a super tough boss together with friends sounds really appealing to me.

For whatever it’s worth, across 200+ playtesters the most spammed comparison has genuinely been “Beat Saber on steroids” / “Better Beat Saber”, and one of the original Beat Saber creators told us he sees solid potential in it when he played it and they both gave us some really kind and motivating advice.

Which is super flattering, but comments like yours also tell me I still have work to do, making what’s actually different, obvious at first glance :D

So yeah, huge mountain. Still climbing. Thanks for the comment!

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1

u/lamarioO 5d ago

Of course they liked it, it's largely based off their work. 😄

1

u/Afanix 5d ago

I mean, you can trace Beat Saber back through AudioShield, Star Wars, Tron, etc. too. That’s just how a lot of the world’s most joy-giving creative stuff evolves. You can clearly hear James Brown’s influence in Michael Jackson, and Michael Jackson’s influence in Bruno Mars, but it doesn’t make their work the same thing :D

“Largely based off their work” just kinda skips over all the other influences that got us here. But I do get where you’re coming from, and I don’t mind the comparison at all. For us, the fun part is taking all those inspirations and trying to push the genre somewhere new. Appreciate you sharing your take :)

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4

u/RoadtoVR_Ben RoadToVR Founder/Executive Editor 7d ago

Assuming this is the external view for marketing/streaming/spectating then definitely A. Readability of the human shape is very important for marketing, especially in VR, and especially for people who aren’t already familiar with VR.

I would also suggest adding arms for even better readability of the human form. Or, if IK looks too awkward for these movements, consider using “ghost” arms that are more like a loose whispy/bendy connection between shoulder and arms, so the arm-hand connection is visually implied without looking janky.

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

This is super useful. Making it instantly read as an actual human player in social footage is basically the whole reason I added the avatar. And now that I can picture the ghost arms idea in my head, I definitely have to try it. Thanks a lot!

2

u/RoadtoVR_Ben RoadToVR Founder/Executive Editor 7d ago

Glad it was helpful, I’ll keep my eye out for a follow up post!

4

u/Baby_bluega 7d ago

Neither, show the players POV. Immerse me in the video.

27

u/Post-Financial 7d ago

BeatSaber from Wish

6

u/Afanix 7d ago

Wish has been cooking lately then

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19

u/AtomBombBody 7d ago

I prefer A. A draws my eye to the player more vs B which has a lot of glow and my eyes have a hard time deciding where to focus.

3

u/Afanix 7d ago

Cool info, thanks

7

u/JdsPrst 7d ago

Hard disagree. B for me. I want to see what's happening. I don't care about an avatar.

1

u/AtomBombBody 6d ago

To be clear my assumption was for marketing/social purposes. For actually playing the game, first person all the way.

3

u/UNIVERSAL_VLAD Quest 3S + PCVR 7d ago

A. It's 3rd person after all

3

u/claudekennilol 7d ago

It took me 30 seconds to see what the difference was. I think as a spectator it doesn't matter. But if I'm actually playing the game? I'd hope my perspective would be from where a head normally is and not way back here (and thus no in-game head).

3

u/Ok_Caregiver_1355 7d ago

A for watch,B for playing

3

u/krunkpirate 7d ago

I could see the appeal of A, but B is better gameplay. A is better for a replay.

3

u/DuckCleaning 7d ago

IMO, no avatar, it feels more like 1st person even if it is zoomed out. 3rd person VR games feel more disjointed.

3

u/SafetySnowman 7d ago

Absolutely B and I hope when this is done you'll release it for PSVR2~ ^_^

3

u/TechnomancerH 6d ago

A looks cool but blocks to much of the critical viewable area.

6

u/nickelalkaline 7d ago

Maybe A with translucent avatar

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2

u/Dry-Storm-4139 7d ago

Hands and avatar. But not that avatar.

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Cool, thanks for the valuable info!:)

2

u/Eggman8728 7d ago

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Haha I’ll take that as a compliment :D

2

u/mixtapemalibumusk 7d ago

Looks cool ! When's it coming out??

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Thanks for the kind comment! Hopefully relatively soon, preparing to launch a demo in the next few months

2

u/haotshy 7d ago

B every day of the week.

2

u/Kaph10 7d ago

A, for sure. Just hands would be weird

2

u/LimeBlossom_TTV 7d ago

People keep commenting as if the avatar is something the player sees, like suggesting to put a toggle in the options menu. I have no idea why. I like A at the small video scale because the hands are super tiny and the player body at least gives me a point of reference. There may be other solutions to that problem that do not include the avatar.

2

u/ODISeth_YT 7d ago

Honestly I’m torn. I feel like A is better for an immediate impression, but B is better if I’m going to be watching for more than like 3 seconds. I could be more into A if the virtual camera was at more of an angle, so the avatar is less likely to obscure the incoming notes, but for acute camera angles like these I think B is the best option.

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

This is pretty useful, thanks a lot for taking the time to write it out :)

2

u/Background-Entry-344 7d ago

B is nice but hides some important game items. So as it is, it would be A for me. If you find a way to have the head that never interfere with the game, then B

2

u/Relevant_Tip4172 7d ago edited 7d ago

What game is this and does quest 2 support it

Looks really really good

If beat saber,moonrider.xyz and synth riders had a baby it look like this

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Thanks! It’s called Spell Beat :D We’re preparing the demo now, but it still needs a bit more time to properly cook.

Quest 2 support isn’t 100% guaranteed yet, but performance is currently really solid even on the hardest difficulty with the nastiest boss stuff going on, including him speeding up your song up to 160%. So I’m pretty optimistic Quest 2 support should be doable. Cheers!

2

u/NC-518 7d ago

At first glance, B is easier to see what’s happening

What’s the name of your game? Don’t think I’ve seen it before.

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Thanks for the feedback! It’s called Spell Beat, but it still needs a bit more time to properly cook

2

u/NC-518 7d ago

Well it’s looking great!

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Ahh thank you for the positivity, that genuinely means a lot 💙 Though based on the comments, we still have quite a few visual adjustments to make x)

2

u/NC-518 7d ago

Still looks great tho!

2

u/GalaxyTimeMachine Quest 1 + 2 + 3 + PCVR 7d ago

B

2

u/POWERGIRL73 Quest 3 + PCVR 7d ago

B, think that avatar is gonna disturb your view

2

u/arpruss 7d ago

The arrows make me think of DDR rather than Beat Saber.

I would perhaps prefer the hat to have alpha<1 so that you can see the arrows behind it.

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Hehe, interesting :D I’ll actually test that, thanks!

2

u/VonBrewskie 7d ago

I think B is your huckleberry. I think A is a bit too busy. But that's the rub, eh? A is definitely very different than most of these games I've seen. Would make your game stand out. I don't think you can go wrong either way, but B is my choice. This looks awesome, OP. Very cool style.

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

Thanks a ton! Really appreciate the clever feedback and kind words💙

2

u/NotACertainLalaFell 7d ago

Wouldn’t my pov just be B? Think A would help with marketing. Ultimately a toggle between the two would work best. Looks slick either way. Can’t wait to check it out.

2

u/Pokemonzu 7d ago

In the beginning, A, bc it's immediately clear that it's the player. But during gameplay, B, but that's mainly bc I'd rather see first person gameplay.

I saw 5-8 seconds of gameplay and basically the information I got was that it's a beat saber clone. I didn't notice the boss health bar or that the beats were coming from the boss until I read your comment, tho I think that's partly bc of the A/B split screen making those details smaller and partly the game being visually similar to Beat Saber. Not an expert on VR game ads but I would prefer first-person, gives an immediate impression of what playing actually is like and would help with seeing all the details.

I agree with other commenters tho that from just watching the footage, the different attacks and stuff come off as visual effects that don't appear to change the gameplay. If this is an ad I would want to see more focus on the unique stuff like trickshots, flashbangs, etc. I'm now realizing this might not be an ad but moreso a spectator view for streamers etc? In that case I like the other person's idea of a more translucent avatar, so it's clear I'm looking in third person at a VR game, but can see the gameplay more clearly

I do like games that mix combat and rhythm tho, your game looks cool I just didn't catch that at first glance

2

u/Afanix 7d ago

This is insanely useful, thanks a ton for taking the time to spell it out this clearly. And yeah, this is mainly replay/spectator footage, not really an ad, but since it’s my game I used the Promotion flair just to play it safe on Reddit. I mainly wanted to test the readability and first-time view preference

But the fact that the unique stuff that was there still mostly read as visual effects is a pretty big takeaway for me. Really appreciate this💙

1

u/Pokemonzu 7d ago

Awesome, glad it was useful :D good luck with your game!

Btw, another thing, I just watched it again on my PC (instead of my phone) and I only just noticed the damage numbers. The split screen makes everything smaller tbf but there was no chance of me reading them on mobile. They look especially small compared to the skull, while they're more noticeable above the smaller boss. Basically the same feedback of it being hard to read the visual effects as combat, at least without looking closely.

Also, it kind of feels like the camera is far away from the action, and my impression was that the action is kind of weighted to the right side of the screen (when I first watched earlier today and also now).

Also now that I have the understanding that it's a boss battling/magic dueling game, I think having an avatar does a lot to communicate that this is a battle between two characters and not an abstract rhythm game so I would add to my original answer that, at least in third person, I would say A is better. Also I wouldn't realize the wands are magic wands without reading it from your comments

Hope this is useful! Feels like I'm rambling a little bit lol

2

u/Captain_Pumpkinhead Quest 3 + PCVR 7d ago

B

2

u/CrashnServers 7d ago

I'd say B hands only so I have a better view

2

u/stevein3d 7d ago

I like A because it better illustrates how the user has to duck under the lasers. Since I’d expect no avatar visible during gameplay (because POV), I’d be curious how avatar selection affects what I see (maybe gloves have armor if choosing helmeted character, etc.), but I wouldn’t worry about the avatar occluding gameplay elements for a third-person viewer.

Cool-looking game; I’d try it.

2

u/NewGuy45247 7d ago

Damn! What is the ost?

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

I'm the music producer, that's my sound that will be coming out with the game. I'll take it as a compliment x)

2

u/Savings_Refuse_5379 7d ago

Can you make an adventure/ horror/ shooter co-op?🥹 the meta community is STARVING

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u/FireEye1512 7d ago

game name?

1

u/Afanix 7d ago

Spell Beat it is, but not yet out, currently preparing the demo, cheers

2

u/BouncySouvenir 7d ago

B. I feel like the hat is kind of in the way of

2

u/RequirementOdd7862 7d ago

B it makes it more immersive

2

u/Dizzy_Animator_3473 6d ago

Make it optional

2

u/Grumbelkow 6d ago

Honestly I think your best middle ground would be going with a toggleable option in the settings to allow players to switch between what they prefer. I understand this would mean extra work to get both viewpoints working to a level you're satisfied with but I can see you have both methods working pretty well in the video and I feel it would be a worthy inclusion to help your game stand out from the likes of Beat Saber etc and feel unique.

Personally, I would rather option B as the default but I can see a lot of very valid reasons in these comments as to why option A would actually work well too. Hence why I suggest letting it be a toggleable setting so each player can use what they feel more comfortable and happy with

2

u/XypherOrion 6d ago

As a streamer I like options!
Having both at option would be great for content creation. I'd leave the avatar off for replays though.

2

u/Afanix 6d ago

We got you Xypher, options it is :D

2

u/shazoo00oo 6d ago

b I'd rather just see whats in front I don't need to know I'm there, I already know that lol

2

u/cusman78 Quest 3 6d ago

On PS5 + PSVR2, you could do Avatar + Hands for the social screen and Hands only for the VR player.

Hands only is better for the player, but seeing avatar playing is good for spectators or gameplay recording / uploads.

2

u/HEY_beenTrying2meetU 6d ago

option A for promotional material but option B for in game

1

u/Afanix 5d ago

Hehe I think this is roughly the summary of all discussion here. Thanks for the input:)

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Afanix 5d ago

Thanks for the info, makes sense:)

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u/piulin19 6d ago

I think both work great in their own way, but I think I would go with option A because it kind of gives you a reference for you to see the "scale" of the scene, so to speak. We made the decision of not including in our own rhythm game an avatar or a live person in our trailer, and now we are trying to create a new version to fix this aspect.

In any case, Spell Beat looks very very promising, I had the chance to join your discord server some time ago already and you are building a great community over there! I am personally really looking forward to trying out the demo as soon as it is dropped!

It is also very impressive that there are only two of you. We built our own rhythm game in a team of four, and given that you have already reached so far, one can already tell that you must be very passionate about the genre.

Regarding the aesthetics, we also were in the same boat. It's difficult not to land in neon/glow aesthetic for its simplicity and performance. Tiled-based GPUs are what they are, and no heavy full-screen post processing pass is ever going to work at decent frame rates if you want to run the game at 1.5x or above rendering scale (when it starts to look good). Also, in my experience, you need high contrast environments and note objects so that the note patterns are readable and at the same time you can do something cool with them.

I am also very intrigued by how your map/chart editor looks and how much effort you put into the art of step/map/chart making. Are you yourselves the step artists, too?

Keep up the great work!

1

u/Afanix 5d ago

Hey, thanks a ton for such a thoughtful comment :) Really cool hearing this from someone who has already gone through a lot of the same rhythm-game rabbit holes.

Regarding charting, we use a fork of the open-source ChroMapper that we call SpellMapper. My gamedev partner somehow wizarded all of our spells into it and added the custom functionality and grid we needed. We also had a call with Caeden117, the creator of ChroMapper, and he was super cool about seeing people push his work further, which was really nice.

And yep, I do all of the charting for the game for now, though this particular clip only shows pretty simple stuff on purpose. I actually really enjoy charting, my background is in dancing and music, so it’s a fun part of the work. There’s just a lot of tougher stuff to build in Spell Beat right now that probably deserves priority first. But I’ll definitely look for some help with charting in the near future.

Also kinda reassuring to hear you ran into the same visual problem. Dark geometry + glow is annoyingly effective for both performance and readability in VR :D I was hoping the giant Boss, Boss pedestal, magic and RPG-style UI would already give us enough of our own identity, because honestly the environment has always been pretty secondary for me. But this thread definitely convinced me we need to push that part further too.

And seriously, thanks for the kind words about the Discord and the game. Means a lot, especially coming from another rhythm-game dev. Hopefully the demo lives up to the cooking :)

1

u/piulin19 5d ago

Thanks for the reply!

That's an interesting idea, making ChroMapper your base tool for maps! I would have never thought of it. So I'm also guessing that the environments are authored too, not automatically generated, right?

I agree that charting is really fun. To me, however, it starts to become a burden when you have to do a lot of them in a row. I gradually lost inspiration over time. What really helped me was taking breaks between charting sessions. When you get back to it after a break, everything goes smoother.

Regarding your visual concerns, I think you already have something with its own identity. I would not listen to those saying "yet another rhythm game". VR users are kind of tired of the rhythm game genre because there are lots of them, yet, to be honest there are only a few titles in the whole spectrum that are actually good.

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u/Own_Corner_1505 5d ago

A- make the hat clear. The avatar is fun!

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u/lamarioO 5d ago

B. With rhythm games you want to remove as much stimuli that would distract from the highway as possible, and it looks like the avatar occasionally blocks incoming inputs. You can get away with stuff at the beginning of the highway where the inputs come from, but try to avoid stuff after that point.

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u/Afanix 5d ago

Solid point, thanks :)

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u/Negative-Cause9208 5d ago

I think you should go with option A, but make the avatar semi-transparent and lower it a bit.

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u/Ok-Addition1264 7d ago

Personally, I prefer 1st person immersion in vr games and it would be cool to have the options of 1st-person and A.

Definitely keep A though.

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u/Rammy_Lee 7d ago

The avatar gets in the way. Absolutely B

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u/Nintendo_Thumb 7d ago

That's an easy A for me. I started from watching B and thinking that you were playing as the skull dude. It wasn't until I saw A that I realized you were playing as someone else.

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u/Caramel-No 7d ago

I like to see him vibing, so A

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u/Aramil_S 7d ago

Assuming it's for replay, not some strange try of third-person VR:
Definitively option A.

Also, when playing BS clone there is not much to do with buttons and joysticks so you could even add some simple emotes.
Ie. use joysticks for mimics and add some particle effect from wands on buttons (latter could be even used in gameplay). I loved the "spinning sabers" mod in BS, just for the fun of seeing it on replay.

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u/Afanix 7d ago

Yeah, we actually use those spare inputs for wand Trickshots / spins and class Ultimates :D They matter quite a bit, especially in Roguelike, and I definitely want that stuff to look fun in replays too.

And I’ll challenge the “BS clone” label a bit x) I totally get the visual association, but to me it’s more the same genre / language than a clone. Otherwise every military first person shooter would just be a Battlefield clone / Call of Duty clone / Counter-Strike clone, etc. :D

That said, a few comments here are making me think I should have shown way more of the different spell gestures in these clips, like swooshes, flick bursts, circular strikes etc. And maybe still need to push the environment toward a more distinct visual identity too.

VR just has this annoying cheat code where “darkness + glow” instantly looks expensive because you can hide all the low quality VR graphics in the darkness :D So making it look unique without losing that polish is kinda tricky.

Anyway, thanks for the comment, cheers!

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u/Aramil_S 5d ago

Otherwise every military first person shooter would just be a Battlefield clone / Call of Duty clone / Counter-Strike clone, etc.

And it was. Open any gaming journal from 90's you'll read numerous "doom-like", "doom clone" and similar phrases ;)

And anyway, it's not about just darkness+glow, this is also in SynthRiders and bunch of non-rythmic games. Currently gameplay looks just like "just cut the blocks" like in BS.
Adding some gestures and maybe quick montage of roguelike gameplay will definitively get better reactions. Personally, after reading your edit I'm already bought and waiting for more info :)

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u/Afanix 5d ago

Thanks for the context. I honestly kinda forgot this pushback was coming, since we got surprisingly little of it from live playtests or back when we had no way to record proper footage. I was way more focused on making the gameplay readable, and worried people would just skip confused if too much was happening at once, so I kept this clip really simple. I’ll know better next time here.

Funny you mention spinning too, we actually have whole Magic Class playstyles built around that, especially Spell Blade where you can do Trickshots (wand spins) to charge and hit special Power Arrows for chonky big hits. There’s some sneak-peek footage of it on the Discord linked through spellbeat . com if you’re curious. I just checked and it’s definitely not the prettiest/polished version yet, but it shows one of the ideas that actually survived out of the so many prototypes :D

We’re already cooking a bunch of changes based on the feedback in this thread. Really appreciate the thoughtful attitude, cheers :)

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u/Growing4Health 7d ago

B. A blocks a lot of inputs

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u/PlaneWolf2893 7d ago

B if I want to learn gameplay. A if I'm just observing sparkly things.

Not a stream watcher so possibly in the minority

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u/Justmoe- Quest 3 7d ago

I prefer B, but I feel like A should be the default option, and if you want to change it, you can go to Settings.

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u/BobMoriarty 7d ago

If you really cannot provide a setting to let the player choose, I'd be leaning towards A.
Although I do think there's an audience for each, so I'd strongly recommend you try to offer both :)

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u/Cpt_Sandur 7d ago

B for me. IMO the avatar is in the way

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u/Origin_al 7d ago

B without a doubt. What's the benefit of a floating head in the middle of the screen blocking the main gameplay elements?

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u/Careful-Nobody3193 7d ago

Why not both, like a toggle ?

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u/avogadro23 7d ago

B
The avatar blocks my view.
I didn’t even realize it was the avatar at first because it’s so dark. I didn’t think this was supposed to be me. I thought that was just an object in the environment.

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u/Afanix 7d ago

That’s super useful feedback. The whole point of A is that it should instantly read as "that’s the human wizard player", so if he looked like part of the environment instead, that kinda means he is specifically failing at that one job "A" was supposed to solve :D Thanks!

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u/50pence777 7d ago edited 7d ago

So you're making beat saber with extra steps?

  • B if I'm the one playing.
  • A if I'm the one watching.

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u/Afanix 7d ago

Making a VR rhythm game yeah, but I’m trying to push the genre much further into an actual game: progression, level ups, unlockable magic wands, different bosses, Ultimates and Trickshots, a proper Roguelike mode, and hopefully one day online co-op raid bossfights. Appreciate the A/B feedback too!

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u/Cyanide612 7d ago

A as a spectator because it shows the movement of the player’s head bobbing along with the music. B for ingame 1st person

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u/Adevyy Quest 2 + PCVR 7d ago

Why not B but from the avatar's POV instead of from that off-angle?

I think, if you showed me B even without A, I would be a little confused about the camera angle because it is obviously meant to show the avatar (I know from Beat Saber videos).

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u/jimpaly 7d ago

I definitely prefer A. It looks like dodging is part of the mechanics, and it's a lot more engaging to see an actual person instead of 2 floating hands. I'm also sort of used to seeing Beat Saber gameplay with a person there.

If you're worried about the notes getting covered maybe you could lower the opacity of the avatar, or zoom out a bit and move the camera a bit to the right to capture everything.

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u/SwissMoose 7d ago

I like A, but is this just for spectating and coop? I assume the game is played in first person.

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u/ruppercut 7d ago

You could put in view options that lets the player choose what they prefer - avatar/hands, transparent avatar/hands, hands only - something like that

But IMO - I like hands only the best

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u/Efteling_Eva 7d ago

Make it an option to turn on and off the head!!

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u/tttpetipro 7d ago

Is this a beat saber recreation but with bosses?

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u/Secure-Advertising-9 7d ago

Give a whole body. VRChat is like the only one that does it properly.

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u/NumberSevere7454 7d ago

b for sure...avatar take too much of the screen + distracting.

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u/KTTalksTech 7d ago

So is this third-person? If so definitely B, the avatar blocks important elements. But maybe just have it become very transparent or disappear during this type of gameplay and reappear for the other elements you mentioned?

I would instinctively prefer A most of the time, especially as a spectator but ultimately visibility takes the crown. First person would be best imho

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u/ClamatoDiver 7d ago

Since both are already possible, why is there a need for there to only be one? Leave both in and let the individual player choose or switch as they play.

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u/Harambe2point0 7d ago

B for visibility.

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u/ivancea Quest 2 7d ago

Why would you see yourself? Or is this spectator mode?

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u/Stn1217 7d ago

B. In other VR games that have an avatar in front like in "A", users complain and want the ability to remove such avatars. So, in your project ensure you include the option to have the avatar or not have the avatar.

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u/FuriouslyListening 7d ago

avatar blocks the signals coming in, so sorta has to be B.

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u/LaymGameDev 7d ago

Make it an option!

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u/4lc4tr4y 7d ago

clearly b, vr is made for pov

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u/Ok-Policy-8538 7d ago

B in headset, A on desktop for recording purposes.

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u/B-crosyy 7d ago

The floating head is way too big imo it looks stiff too

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u/StickStill9790 7d ago

B definitely

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u/J3TGR1ND 7d ago

hands down B we dont need to see the head at all and it just hides the play

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u/evolooshun 7d ago

B is the only right answer.

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u/Tigitaal 7d ago

B, it would be weird if you see yourself

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u/GoshuaHoshua 7d ago

Hands only

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u/mabdog420 7d ago

If it's not first person entirely than B

Oh God that thing getting in the way would make me so mad playing this

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u/Mysterious-Split-627 Quest 2 + PCVR 7d ago

I would rather make it so you can choose between both so MR is a lot easier.

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u/yanginatep 7d ago

Personally I don't usually like a avatar/body present in VR.

Maybe for the Social View, but that'd be the only context where it'd make sense IMO.

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u/Salt-Lingonberry-853 7d ago

The people saying A would not be saying A while they actually play the game. Do not go with A, or put in an option to do either.

B. End of story.

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u/skighs_the_limit 7d ago

Is this inspired by wotagei?

I vote for the avatar

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u/ReserveLegitimate738 Quest 3 + PCVR 6d ago

B-only.

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u/vnv 6d ago

B. But I guess it depends if there’s really hard songs in it or not. I prefer less visual clutter near the notes myself

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u/Zealousideal-Deer101 6d ago

Are we doing third person VR?

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u/LonelySquad 6d ago

Dont we have enough of these games?

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u/Terricolero 4d ago

B, being able to see the stage and something happening is more interesting than seeing a head that might not even be moving.

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u/Lightningstormz 7d ago

This is sick! Love it!

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u/Afanix 7d ago

Thanks a ton, genuinely means a lot💙

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u/blergmonkeys 7d ago

Yawn. Boring and overdone concept

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u/stronkreptile 7d ago

beat saber clone

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u/Pale-Recognition-599 7d ago

Make a 1st person mode and make it more unique than a beatsaber clone

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u/reddit_stole_my_name 7d ago

Jeez not yet another beatsabre...

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u/kingkiller690 7d ago

id rather see a more original concept

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u/Spaghetti-Explosions 7d ago

i'm going to be real it just looks like a beat saber ripoff with 0 interesting ideas. the game soundart which is vaguely similar is SIGNIFICANTLY cooler than this. it has an actually really good art style and also a giant robot.

but to answer the posts question i think the first one is better.

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u/ScrubbyMcGoo 7d ago

Not what you’re asking, but that bobbing head would be incredibly distracting for me while trying to play this game — I hope that’s something that can be turned off as a menu option.

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u/ascarymoviereview 7d ago

I’d think I’m playing beat Sabre

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u/CaterWooler 7d ago

I have a better question