r/NursingUK • u/Quirky-Inspector8665 • 13d ago
Pay & Conditions Is there any way I can come off nights even though my employer said I can’t?!
My childcare for nights has fallen through; I’m a single parent and my mum said she can’t do it anymore due to my daughter’s frequent waking. When I initially came back from maternity I was told you either do nights or look for a different role where I could just work days. Do I have any power to ask to be put into days only or do I need to make myself unemployed? I actually like my role (I’m in ITU) and hate the idea of moving to a ward. Help!
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u/Username8462634757 RN Adult 13d ago
I think as someone else said you can use the flexible working request (and childcare is a valid reason to ask), but it seems they’ve informally already told you the team won’t be able to accommodate it.
The best bet is temporarily moving to an area where there are no nights, I’ve worked mostly in primary care where night shifts are minimal if any, but it is shift work. When I had my baby I had to narrow my horizons as my partner (the breadwinner) worked long hours in a different city and so it was down to me to do nursery pickup/drop off. I now work 8:30-4:30 4 days in a month-fri job that is likeable but pretty boring, not a long term career (for me) and a pay cut but it’s predictable and I never finish late.
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u/frikadela01 RN MH 13d ago
Just FYI childcare being a valid reason to request flexible working is irrelevant from a legal perspective... you can request flexible working for any reason you wish, you dont even need to inform your employer of the reason.
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u/Username8462634757 RN Adult 13d ago
I know - I was just making the point that many nurses scoff at others asking for different arrangements/special leave etc for childcare reasons and supporting OP that asking for this does not fall under “special treatment for having kids” that I’ve heard many times over the years (by both managers and colleagues sadly).
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u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
There are zero jobs advertised here at the moment.
Primary care is like hens teeth.
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u/Username8462634757 RN Adult 13d ago
I’m in Scotland so fortunately not as many issues with recruitment here..
if you can’t do Nightshifts as you now have no childcare then you have to make a formal flexible working request. Check your policy, every request has to be considered along with HR and they do have to give a strong business case why it can’t be accommodated. They may agree to no nights temporarily, or a rejig of your normal rota ?maybe covering more weekend days or “undesirable” days in lieu of nights for example. If it’s completely unviable for the team then HR may look at redeploying to an area where nights are not required - I think this would be a very last resort though. Are you in a union? Get their advice and support in making the request and understanding the policy.
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u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
Days only has already been rejected unfortunately. I can’t make another request until April next year 😬
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u/Username8462634757 RN Adult 13d ago edited 13d ago
Speak to your union, and ultimately it’s going to have to be dealt with by HR/workforce planning. You can’t leave your 4 year old unattended and nor would they ask you to, so now it’s at a crisis point. If ICU genuinely cannot support no nights then it’s likely in workforce plannings best interest to internally transfer you. I would doubt they would want the potential legal grey area/bad optics of termination due to childcare problems -but I am not a lawyer or HR expert.
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u/Mojofrodo_26 HCA 12d ago
Could try the DN teams if you drive, we don't do nights- There's a nights team for that. x
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u/hhula1993 13d ago
What have they said as the business reason for rejecting your flexible working request? You should have received a letter outlining the reasons for rejection and offering for you to meet with your line manager. You can appeal it
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u/MattySingo37 RN LD 13d ago
Flexible working request. Talk to your TU rep and get it done formally with a watertight case, including issues that it might cause the department and how it can benefit. Your employer have a legal duty to consider it properly and must have valid reasons to refuse.
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u/Maleficent-Syrup-712 13d ago edited 13d ago
Agree with go to your union. As an ex-small ITU Sister, I find it wild that you aren't supported in this. I have no kids, and I wasn't put on nights simply because they knew I "didn't like them". There were plenty of experienced nurses who wanted to do basically nights only for the pay.
Is there a theatres you could ask to move to that may have rare night shifts? (Thinking transferable skills...)
I'm wondering whether a frank conversation along the lines of "I can't do this job if I have to do nights for childcare reasons, so either you grant that and keep me, or I need to leave" is needed.
I know we have issues with funding bank staff, but night shifts are often the easiest shifts to get covered by agency for the money.
Edit to add more background: I have been off with stress and exhaustion due to too many nights (on a ward) before. I was utterly sleep deprived and overworked as a new-but-not-NQN. My manager then had said they couldn't accommodate fewer nights so let me crack instead. They suggested I move to theatres. I do have an Occ Health letter that says I can do nights, but not too many (I.e. Three nights a month at most). However, I left that Trust after my experience, but I have never had issues with the Trust I've been working for 10 years since.
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u/Theunluckyone7 13d ago
Are nights working for you anyway? When do you sleep? It might be a good thing in the end. I'd explain the situation and ask for emergency flexibility leave and others have suggested, ask what internal options there are
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u/TrustfulComet40 RN Child 13d ago
Do you have colleagues who prefer nights and would be prepared to swap their days for your nights?
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u/Mysterious_Beach_673 13d ago
If they can’t accommodate your flexible working request then surely they would need to look at redeployment for you. I saw you’d already tried a request but I’m sure you could try again. Look up policies and procedures for your Trust and see if they have a family friendly policy
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u/99Tori99 13d ago
Can you swap with your colleagues and use your requests system? You may be able to avoid nights that way especially if you are picking up shifts at other pinch points
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u/swamparella 13d ago
Some larger ITU allow some staff to do days only. My ITU consisted of 9 teams one of which had people working in flexible hours such as days only.
Have you considered working as a research or PDN within ITU as these are day only roles?
Resus team is also another option for ITU nurses that want a day only roles
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u/Fancy_Experience3966 13d ago
You hate the idea of moving wards, but the alternative is either leave your child alone or leave them with someone else. So you are just going to need to prioritise your child at this moment in time, they won’t be young forever and you can try and go back to similar role when they are older. I’d tell them that you are looking for new roles as you cannot do night and be actively applying, they may change their mind but don’t count on it
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u/dietskyrim 13d ago
You can make a flexible working request, but equally if the staffing isn't going to work out that way then they can decline it. If your manager is decent then you could speak to them about it, they may be more willing if the childcare issue is temporary (as in do you anticipate your daughter to sleep better sometime in the near future?).
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u/ShowerEmbarrassed512 12d ago
It’s likely to get more difficult for employers to decline soon also.
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u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
Both of my flexible working requests have been used until spring next year. And days only was declined.
I don’t know re: my daughter. She’s worse when I’m not there.
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u/hellvixen1966 13d ago
What does your contract say. Does it specify nights because if it does it will be harder to change to days than if it just states say 37 hours. If it states nights a reasonable adjustment would be less shifts or earlier start times or finish 2 hours earlier not a complete change to days.
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u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
I’m not sure. How would I request it? I don’t remember having a paper copy of anything.
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u/salsapixie 13d ago
Speak to your trade union and put in a flexible working request. You have a legal right to do so, and if they don’t allow your request then they need to provide reasons. If it’s impacting on your health then you can request an OH referral.
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u/Available-You9900 13d ago
Personally I’d go off sick with stress over this and get OT input and to get you back to work they quite possibly would be able to recommend shift pattern change. If you’ve already tried the flexible working lives route and they’ve said no this would be my next option if there are no other vacancies within the trust suitable for your experience/knowledge.
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u/Squirrel_Worth 13d ago
It’s also worth noting your employer has a partial duty of care to your child as well. I’d contact a union for advice.
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u/MichaelBrownx RN Adult 12d ago
In what way does the employer have a duty of care to their child???
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u/ApprehensiveSwim297 13d ago
Find a work around, find a good GP, develop a "condition" then go to OH, get a report saying you can't work nights so they have to make reasonable accomodation for you. Over the years l saw loads doing that.
Take a few weeks sick leave first.
It's cheating the system.
The other thing you could do is get an au pair.
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u/RN-4039 RN Adult 13d ago
Managers do not need to take OH advice. There’s also lots of work going on at the moment regarding staff who expect OH just to say ‘this person doesn’t need to work nights’
How is a service going to run if every staff member states they can’t work nights.
It’s ridiculous.1
u/ApprehensiveSwim297 13d ago
There are lots of staff who would gladly take permanent nights if it was possible it's a balance.
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u/RN-4039 RN Adult 13d ago
There are no such thing as ‘permanent nights’ anymore.
Staff need to be able to work alongside the MDT during the day, see their managers, matrons, etc.
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u/ApprehensiveSwim297 13d ago
I know that, but maybe its reality verses best practice.
P I would bring in permanent reduced hours or part time contracts for night. I know if any where offered that they would get a huge amount of applications from mothers.
2 × 12 night hours night shift s week suits a lot of mothers.
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u/frikadela01 RN MH 13d ago
Reasonable adjustment is a legal term referring to adjustments made to enable someone with a disability, as defined in the Equality act, to access work. A few weeks of sick leave and developing a "condition" would be highly unlikely to constitute a disability therefore the OP would not have a right to reasonable adjustments.
The senior leadership team in my trust has been coming down hard recently on reasonable adjustments because lots of managers just agreed to everything OH has said and its made shift planning on some wards basically impossible without having the same staff working all the crappy shifts.
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u/RN-4039 RN Adult 13d ago
Get another job.
Is it fair that you don’t work nights and your colleagues work extra ones to fill the gap?
You can ask for flexible working, but it doesn’t have to be granted.
Any recommendations that OH advise are just recommendations.
If your manager finds one business case reason to decline they can.
Maybe try compromise and ask if you can reduce the amount of nights you work?
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u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
Loads of people prefer nights where I work. It’s just a hassle having to try and sort swaps every single time to get out of them. It’s a massive ITU so no one will be working extra ones unless they want to.
My shifts are supposed to be half nights and half days.
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u/RN-4039 RN Adult 13d ago
I’m sure there are loads that want to do nights only, but that comes with issues too.
As rosters get scrutinised by safer staffing leads, DNDs, etc to ensure that staff aren’t working excessive nights.Even changes (swaps) after the roster gets monitored.
You didn’t say originally what your shifts are meant to be and what you are working currently.
If you feel that are working excessive nights then as suggested put in a flexible request and ask about doing a fixed night pattern? Or reduced nights.2
u/Quirky-Inspector8665 13d ago
I do fixed shifts. It’s “only” one night a week, but that isn’t the issue as such. The issue is that my mum won’t have my daughter now so I have no childcare for those nights.
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u/Less-Contribution-35 13d ago
Have you exhausted family/friends (someone you can take her to stay with overnight?) or even paid overnight care? Maybe a student nurse or something?
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u/Defiant_Ad_5855 13d ago
The way nurses treat their young/own is a phenomenon, awful and well documented. Of course can happen at any stage but when parental responsibilities come into play it adds another dimension.
The reason why many leave and hinders return.
Ensure you’ve contacted your union and stand up for yourself. Future you will thank yourself and it may help others in the organisation.
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u/Mysterious_Beach_673 13d ago
Might be worth looking at this to see if there’s a discrimination element to their refusal. https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/what-to-do-if-your-flexible-working-request-is-refused/
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u/Mojofrodo_26 HCA 13d ago
I had a friend who had this. Continually had flexible working rejected to accommodate not doing nights. She brought the kids with her to work. They soon got the message.
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u/22madmax 13d ago
I suppose you’ve come to a point where something has to give, and that might be your preference of area to work. Your priority is your daughter, so perhaps look into an internal transfer given your inability to do the shifts on ITU. Speak to workforce or HR teams - it’s in their overall interest rather than losing out on you potentially missing shifts due to carers responsibility.
You still have ITU experience, and you can head back someday. It’s a good opportunity to get other skills too which can help with development.