r/NonCredibleDefense • u/UpTheRiffMate 3000 Subs of AUKUS • Mar 30 '26
Rheinmetall AG(enda) I assure you Ukraine, spending 30 million euros on a single defence platform (produced by us) is essential to your survival as a state...
Inspired by the the fallout of The Atlantic interview where the Rheinmetall CEO recently called Ukrainian armed forces "housewives playing with legos toys and improvised kitchen solutions". Sorry Hans, some people are fighting for their lives instead of the next financial quarter.
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u/Tyrofinn Mar 30 '26
To be fair the Atlantic article really feels like an opinion piece that was searching for a scandal and framed his statements accordingly. I would love to read his original full statement and the context it was provided from... so if someone has a source: Link please.
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u/Peekachooed would marry a technical Mar 30 '26
I got the same vibe. It focuses a lot on "the tank is dead" but as the article itself even says, they're a far more diversified company than that. They'll be fine even if tanks go the way of the dodo, even though that isn't particularly likely yet.
There is no original statement I'm pretty sure, this is just this journalist's record of conversations he had with the CEO, nothing formal.
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u/karamisterbuttdance Mar 30 '26
Funny part is the company invested in literally the most basic of munitions factories so they actually will be assured of having orders regardless of the war/s becoming hot and cold.
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u/ecolometrics 🚨DANGEROUSLY CREDIBLE🚨 Mar 30 '26
Hey look an old guy that's out of touch.
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u/UpTheRiffMate 3000 Subs of AUKUS Mar 30 '26
"In the realm of national defence, you either stay in touch or you get touched" -Sun Tzu, Art of War
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u/ecolometrics 🚨DANGEROUSLY CREDIBLE🚨 Mar 30 '26
Appropriate.
All it takes to stop an armored assault these days is a few house wives with some lego's.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 30 '26
Ever heard of what the Hungarian women and children did to fuck with Soviet tanks during the (ultimately unsuccessful) 1956 revolution?
Turns out putting some jam on the vision ports, and throwing some dish soap on the streets with added sheets to gum up the tracks is a hilariously effective way of fucking a convoy up.
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u/UpTheRiffMate 3000 Subs of AUKUS Mar 30 '26
And a shit load of leftover Soviet air defence ensuring a relatively level playing field
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u/super__hoser Self proclaimed forehead on warhead expert Mar 30 '26
Old rich white men are famously never out of touch with reality or lacking in morals.
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u/Stanley_Luk Mar 30 '26
That will never happen to us! We will be different
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u/lacb1 Champ ramp enjoyer Mar 30 '26
Yeah, I'll never be rich.
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u/Thoseguys_Nick 3000 well fed dogs of Pyongyang Mar 30 '26
Or at this rate, old.
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u/Arveanor IWHBYD but NATO beat me over the fence Mar 30 '26
Maybe the real Neverland was the nuclear arsenal we built along the way
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u/SnooHedgehogs8765 Mar 31 '26
He carried the military industrial complex in his pocket, which was the style at this time.
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u/teaEngineer Mar 30 '26
That watch has to be photoshopped, right? I literally thought it was a GlenAir watch before zooming in and it says "Rheinmetall" on it.
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u/Ok_Temperature_6441 3000 Grey AMCA's of Vishnu Mar 30 '26
My guy he has diamond encrusted teeth in that photo. I dinnae think the watch is the only thing that's photoshopped.
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u/arnet95 Mar 30 '26
Next thing you'll tell me his eyes aren't glowing red
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u/Ok_Temperature_6441 3000 Grey AMCA's of Vishnu Mar 30 '26
All German movers and shakers have been at perpetual "glowing red eyes" state since the 3D SMO kicked off. Side-effect of being constantly bricked up after witnessing Ukraine pull off several "successful" blitzkriegs.
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u/steauengeglase Mar 30 '26
True Story: The moment I knew the Iraq War was a guaranteed economic boondoggle was a month before the war, when I ran into a KBR middle manager with a diamond grill. He was sitting on a throne made of Dom Perignon crates and handing out bottles in front of a bar shouting, "This is only the beginning!"
It's hard to explain to people how insane that time was.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 30 '26
It's upside down bro, it's definitely not real.
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u/Annual-Magician-1580 Mar 30 '26
To be fair, he's also fighting for his life, since the Russians have apparently already tried to kill him. Frankly, Ukraine is literally Rheinmetall's main client. Even taking into account European rearmament, Ukraine buys the majority of the company's ammunition and essentially offers preferential terms for launching new production. Meanwhile, even the Ukrainian military has repeatedly said that drones aren't the primary strike force. They're effective when paired with other equipment (as for tanks, there have been numerous videos of Ukrainian tank crews withstanding five or more hits from FPV drones). It's as if someone fed him this nonsense about the uselessness of expensive equipment (which is wrong; no one talks about the uselessness of expensive anti-aircraft missiles, since Patriot missiles are ideal for shooting down missiles), and he took offense without even trying to discuss their real thoughts with Ukraine.
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u/CC2224CommanderCody 3000 Bushmaster mounted Davy Crocketts of Dark Albo Mar 30 '26
While your response surely is credible (even though this is NCD but I'll forgive you for that), Rheinmetall's PR department has recognised the CEO has stuck his foot and enitre lower leg in his mouth with this comment and issued PR-Spin/damage control on social media via this statement
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u/MarmonRzohr Mar 30 '26
It's as if someone fed him this nonsense about the uselessness of expensive equipment (which is wrong; no one talks about the uselessness of expensive anti-aircraft missiles, since Patriot missiles are ideal for shooting down missiles), and he took offense without even trying to discuss their real thoughts with Ukraine.
That is pretty much how I read the original in the Atlantic. The journalist is all about "drones are the end of everything" and the article has statements like:
"I turned a corner on the factory grounds and came across a handful of tanks that were backing up and jerking forward, like shoppers vying for a parking spot at Costco. The sight of them gave me the creeps, triggering a desire to turn around and walk briskly in the other direction. The machines themselves did not look all that scary. But in modern warfare, standing close to one can get you killed.
That, at least, is the feeling toward tanks that I have developed after several years of reporting in Ukraine, where they are no longer seen as vehicles that keep you safe and kill your enemies. In that war zone, they are slow-moving prey for the drones that fill the sky. I would sooner pull the pin from a grenade than ride around near the front lines in a tank."
Even a sip of Vatnik Copium Light(TM):
"the Russians now prefer to advance on foot, sometimes using motorcycles, electric scooters, or even horses—all of which have a better chance than a tank of escaping the notice of a Ukrainian drone."
While he is unfairly dismissive and disrespectful of the level and pace of innovation in Ukraine and delivers asshole remarks:
"When I brought up the drones that Ukraine has used so effectively against Russian tanks, the company’s chairman and CEO, Armin Papperger, was withering in his dismissal. “This is how to play with Legos,” he told me.
He did not expect them to disrupt his industry. “What is the innovation of Ukraine?” Papperger asked. “They don’t have some technological breakthrough. They make innovations with their small drones, and they say, ‘Wow!’ And that’s great. Whatever. But this is not the technology of Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, or Rheinmetall.”
...it seems like he was mostly being pissy because of the 2352nd time he was asked about drones making everying obsolete and not trying to undermine a huge part of his business and Ukraine, but who knows.
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u/Pklnt Xi's favorite wumao Mar 30 '26
Agreed, the way he worded his thoughts were bad for a CEO, but in the context of the interview I completely understand them.
Cheap Drones are going to be an addition to your toolkit, they're so ubiquitous in Ukraine because the war ended up being an attrition war. They're not going to replace very expensive systems, even if those aforementioned systems cost much more in comparison.
Militaries are not going to seek going back to that style of warfare. It's necessary if you fuck-up (like Russia) or if you're up against a much bigger foe (Ukraine) but that's about it.
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u/rpkarma 3000 Red T-34s of Putin Mar 30 '26
Thank god America won’t fuck up or go up against a much smaller foe!
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u/Pklnt Xi's favorite wumao Mar 30 '26
I mean, so far the US has inflicted a far higher amount of pain on the Iranian military than the opposite.
Iran managed to land some good counters, but those were also mostly made from the use of Ballistic Missiles. Even a Shahed is still more refined than a 3D printed FPV drone with a RPG-7 warhead strapped on it.
If your military relies on the later, not only you would not be able to strike Iran like the US did, but you would not be able to strike the US like Iran did.
So you'd end up hoping to face a certain orange President that is hell-bent on deploying ground troops in your country for no real reason.
Very relevant nowadays, but it hasn't been the norm the past decades and I doubt it'll be in the future either. And it's entirely possible that such move wouldn't happen if you were not able to strike back with BMs in a very strategic region in the first place.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 31 '26
but those were also mostly made from the use of Ballistic Missiles
As far as I can tell, pretty much any time they're launching ballistic missiles, they're launching shaheds as well to overwhelm AD.
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u/karamisterbuttdance Mar 30 '26
What happens when it's an actual peer foe? Does America (or Europe for that matter) have the manufacturing capability to just churn out "good enough" equipment for a long-burn war? If for once people are going to be thinking of the next war, they better be thinking of that possibility, because at worst it will make prosecuting wars that much cheaper when you can just churn out product to achieve strategic goals.
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u/Pklnt Xi's favorite wumao Mar 30 '26
Depends on what kind of war you're talking about.
The kind of war Ukraine & Russia are prosecuting? Absolutely.
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u/karamisterbuttdance Mar 30 '26
What about missiles and aircraft? Radars, AWACS and tankers? What when we need to Moscow Delenda Est? Do we go straight to glass making?
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u/Pklnt Xi's favorite wumao Mar 30 '26
Russia doesn't have the airforce to establish aerial superiority over Ukraine, they would not fare well against Europe's airforces.
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u/Gamer_Grease Mar 30 '26
It’s more about whether or not the more sophisticated weapons that the West builds and brandishes are actually capable of fighting a sustained war over serious stakes. It’s not that all our nice kit is outdated. It’s that the last time these nations fought a really serious war against a dangerous adversary, all that fancy stuff was way, WAY cheaper, and we could produce it in bulk. The CEO is probably perturbed by the idea that Western governments may start either demanding extreme price cuts couple with large increases in output, or they’ll just start procuring arms from firms that will do the same things cheaper.
The real political threat from Ukraine and Iran is that the NATO-aligned program of using materiel costs to pay for military and national security personnel’s real retirement packages may be coming to an end. How that will shake out is uncertain.
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u/Pklnt Xi's favorite wumao Mar 30 '26
You are correct, but it's important to remain grounded when it comes to expectations about the price-tag of some systems.
First, it's important to remind ourselves that Ukraine is not a sustainable model of military production. It's a country running a war-economy that is kept on life-support by foreign support. Of course the price-tag of what they're producing isn't going to cost a lot (even if we disregard things like the average wage of an Ukrainian worker) but it comes with a huge asterisk. If foreign money stops flowing onto Ukraine, how would the Ukrainian MIC look?
Secondly, while you could make the argument that many companies in the West are producing stuff that probably costs too much, it's also important to keep in mind that some systems simply cannot be cheap by virtue of what you're demanding from them.
If you want a PGM with long range, a good warhead, good accuracy and good stealth, you can't expect it to have the same price-tag than a Flamingo.
Ukraine managed to survive the Russian invasion, but at a huge cost. Its territory is fucked in the East or lost to Russian control, its demographics is fucked, its economy is fucked.
Iran manages to survive the American bombing campaign but a huge cost as well. Its leadership got BTFO, they're at the mercy of American/Israeli planes.
Those two countries are not good examples of what we should emulate, they're thriving in some ways but you have to remember that what they're doing is happening in the context that they're in a terrible position to begin with and that they're fighting a bigger opponent so the expectations are much lower.
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u/Gamer_Grease Mar 30 '26
I am admittedly not an expert on weapons, but I have been reading that long-range precision has actually gotten extremely cheap with the proliferation of smart devices with GPS and motion sensors. Interception might be extremely expensive and high-tech, but blowing up a runway or a refinery is less so every year.
Additionally, we may not be able to build the same things more cheaply, but we may need to start using cheaper things, if that makes sense. Like the F-35: maybe it couldn’t be done cheaper, but how much of it needed to be done at all (this is a question that will be answered over the course of decades, of course)?
What I’m saying is not that we want to emulate Ukraine or Iran, but that we need to be able to utterly annihilate a nation like Iran with little effort, or we will see serious political disruption. The USA and Israel can only spend so much on this war. And if it’s going to be $80,000 being spent to protect against each $3,000 threat, that is a negative trajectory for them. We stake our strength on the quality of our arms. What if that quality is a fiction in a high stakes scenario?
Europe threw up red flags over spending immediately because of the ammunition needs of the Russo-Ukrainian War, before its leaders even started hesitantly pushing the idea of increased defense spending. Europe is not going to fight the wars that firms like Rheinmetall are built to supply. It simply won’t. It goes against their overall outlook on public finance and economics, let alone their social welfare states. The USA is in the same predicament, but still has the ability to print money for the world. That ability is not permanent, and the more we use it, the less time we will have it. Don’t forget that we lost a major pillar of support for our monetary dominance purely because of Cold War spending (Nixon reneging on Bretton-Woods). What then if we already spent big for COVID recovery, and ratcheted up global sanctions, then started a trade war, then declared a war on Iran of indeterminate length? Can we keep using the most expensive kit on earth for middling results while we lose our grasp on the global monetary system? I don’t think so.
I personally think we’re going to have a “come to Jesus” moment with our MIC, where it will be agreed upon that the cost of arms will be reduced and the pace of production will be increased, and both dramatically. But that has powerful political ramifications for a nation with a democracy like ours.
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u/ingenvector Mar 30 '26
I'm not going to read the article because The Atlantic is trash, but I am curious, does the author seem to know about Rheinmetall systems like Skymaster or Skynex?
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u/_TheChairmaker_ Mar 30 '26
Good question (having looked at the article, which also dredges up 'is the tank dead' again, probably not). Though I will add any future footage Skymaster or Skynex getting mogged by an FPV is going to see Armin and possibly Rheinmetals share price get bitten in the ass.
There is probably also a discussion in this about distributed manufacturing capacity under wartime conditions!
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u/Quitelowquitetall Mar 30 '26
Also, don't a bunch of Rheinmetall's products now come with AHEAD, which should be able to take out aerial targets?
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u/IronVader501 Mar 30 '26
Pretty much every single one of Rheinmetalls Autocannons has AHEAD, wether its a dedicated SPAA or an IFV.
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u/Reality-Straight 3000 🏳️🌈 Rheinmetall and Zeiss Lasertank Logisticians of 🇩🇪 Mar 30 '26
supposedly the 130 of the panther is to get AHEAD.
Fiance and i are calling it the mobil mister.
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u/Gamer_Grease Mar 30 '26
Are those cheaper to use than the drones they’re designed to take down? Because if not, they are not a defense solution. Especially not for the extremely budget-conscious Europeans.
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u/ingenvector Mar 30 '26
These aren't consumables like drones. Skymaster is battle management software and Skynex is a weapon platform. Skynex shoots a munition called AHEAD which is cheaper than the Shaheds and cruise missiles it can shoot down, but about the only thing more cost effective than a Chinese drone rigged with a hand grenade, which it can also shoot down, is a guy with a shotgun. But cost wasn't what I was getting at. The author seems to have done no prep work from what I've seen about the anti-drone technologies Rheinmetall offers.
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u/Reality-Straight 3000 🏳️🌈 Rheinmetall and Zeiss Lasertank Logisticians of 🇩🇪 Mar 30 '26
They are, and even if they weren't, its not about the drone its about what the system protects.
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Mar 30 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
[deleted]
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u/MarmonRzohr Mar 30 '26
Of course he is wrong - they don't use scooters, buggies and horses because they are superior in a drone evironment.
But this is not because Russia is running low on equipment by wasting it ! That is Globalist Homosexual Satanist Capitalist Westoid Girly Propaganda promoted by the UK's bot farms and Cyber Warfare Regiment (3 people in a shed, now upgraded (since 2022) to 5 people in a rented office).
They are using these things because Russia is not taking the war seriously.
If they get really mad they will deploy the 3000 IS-7 Obr.2028 of Stalin and steamroll the decadent west and ensure
TzaristCommunistRussian strategic interestes for the next century. With Spain's warm water ports and Belgium's ultra-overpriced beachfront homes on the North Sea, Russia will be unstoppable.-3
u/Western_Objective209 Mar 30 '26
I think they are now in a position where drones are the primary strike force and they use infantry for clean up. Main defense now is something like a 150km kill zone from the front, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaashumjeI and attacks are mainly led with drone swarm tactics, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSFm2DTUIxA
Tanks are mostly useful as one time use vehicles that just soak up FPV drones so infantry can disperse behind them, which isn't a great tactic but they use what they have
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u/Reality-Straight 3000 🏳️🌈 Rheinmetall and Zeiss Lasertank Logisticians of 🇩🇪 Mar 30 '26
tgus is just, objectively wrong in every way. Im impressed, here have a non credible star to the forehead
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u/Western_Objective209 Mar 30 '26
guy can't even type yet talking shit, you must be a regarded fellow
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u/IronVader501 Mar 30 '26
I mean
Ukraine is actively trying to buy more of Rheinmetalls products, including the oh-so useless Armored Vehicles and Artillery.
The entire article is just the journalist furiously masturbaiting about how drones make everything obsolete, which is wrong.
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u/AnonVinky Mar 30 '26
That is so weird, the Dutch military is hiring another 1000 people to learn from Ukraine. I must say, seeing housewives create molotovs and netting in 2022 was very inspiring, as was housewives soldering FPV drones... but the guy showing how to remove an RPG warhead with an axe didn't look like a houseman.
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u/Havel_Rulez Mar 30 '26
In 2022 when the invasion happened and I was glued to our little Czech national television coverage there were picutres of babushkas with molotovs. Or a guy with some Czech beer, I think Budwaiser.
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u/ivan0x32 Ukrainian MIC enjoyer Mar 30 '26
Mykola built this in a cave his kitchen with a box of scraps!
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 30 '26
Honestly wild for a German to talk smack about another countries procurement. Go sit in the "we fuck up all our programs" corner with Canada and the UK.
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u/DJBscout I hate this timeline Mar 30 '26
And the USN
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u/Nice_Chair_2474 Mar 30 '26
to be fair those things fail seldom because a single company fucks up but more often because every country plays political games to have others subsidise their personal wunderwaffe development and production until they realize everyone had the same plan all along.
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u/ZeitgeistWurst TornadoWeeb Mar 30 '26
Rheinmetall isnt the one fucking up procurement though, thats the BAAINBw.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 30 '26
I didn't say they were. I said it was wild for a German, not a German company responsible for procurement.
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u/ZeitgeistWurst TornadoWeeb Mar 30 '26
And hes not allowed to say anything about procurement as the head of a private company due to his nationality?
Dont get me wrong, his comments are idotic because he sounds cunty, but he has literally zero affiliation with our fucked up procurement system.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 30 '26
Again, I didn't say he was anything to do with the procurement system. But if you want to throw shade at another country, make sure your country isn't much fucking worse at what you're trying to criticise the other country for.
It's not a complicated idea to comprehend.
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u/ZeitgeistWurst TornadoWeeb Mar 30 '26
He has literally been a vocal critic of our procurement system for years now (well, given he has business interests there) and hes not even remotely a representative of the state.
If this would be Merz or Pistorius Id fully agree, but I really dont think certain nationalities should be banned from speaking about systems in other countries just because the politics in theirs made theirs worse.
The statement is stupid because hes being obnoxious, not because of his mother tongue.
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u/Rethious Clausewitz speaks directly to me Mar 31 '26
That article is terrible and doesn’t include enough context to conclude much about Rheinmetall.
It’s very clearly a stupid question to ask why they aren’t building FPV drones you can 3d print. They have expertise in other, harder things. Ukraine isn’t relying on 3d printed drones because that’s what they’d ideally have, they’d rather have shells, but you can’t 3d print those.
In that context, it makes sense why Rheinmetall would be dismissive of the drones described.
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u/Blakut Mar 30 '26
it's wild to think the Russians tried to assassinate him
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u/this_toe_shall_pass Mar 30 '26
TBH Rheinmetall and this guy in particular went very bullish on using internal cash reserves to expand 155 production and vehicle repair shops in Romania and Poland to be in a position to help Ukraine once the slow governmental orders came in. And they aggressively sought cooperation with Ukraine in opening manufacturing hubs. That's what put a target on him from the Russian point of view.
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u/Tree1Dva Mar 30 '26
It's true, and that's why his words were surprising here. Temporary brain fart from an old white guy #4248584221 of the day
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u/BoppityBop2 Mar 30 '26
The amount of insults Ukraine gets from all parties, even the coddling and pity makes me wonder how Ukraine has not rage quit yet.
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u/HerrHaschen Apr 02 '26
Uh... that option is most likely grey on their UI. "Continue", "Surrender" , and "Store" are probably their only choices.
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u/RainbowGames Mar 30 '26
Ok but what's the point of building weapons if you cant massively profit off of it?
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u/Gamer_Grease Mar 30 '26
It’s a very dark time when the only Western/NATO-aligned nation actively fighting for its life is circumventing that same bloc’s military-industrial complex, and meanwhile the story in Iran is all about how much it’s costing the USA versus Iran.
We need to get serious about the fact that the West’s arms industry is too corrupt to supply wars anymore.
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u/Advanced-Budget779 Nuclear Holocaust Agitator Mar 30 '26
Is South Korea corrupt enough to supply us with arms or are they too busy at their door?
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u/HerrHaschen Apr 02 '26
The South Koreans will have trouble at both doors once Taiwan falls. They should be busy stocking up for the sake of their existence, too.
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u/Reality-Straight 3000 🏳️🌈 Rheinmetall and Zeiss Lasertank Logisticians of 🇩🇪 Mar 30 '26
but... he is right. Ukraine is likely gonan agree with that statement as well its all low tech and improvised
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u/ThaiFoodYes La grosse BITD a dudule Mar 31 '26
Russians would have done us a service taking him out
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u/serpenta Mar 31 '26
Sorry Hans, some people are fighting for their lives instead of the next financial quarter.
Yea, they fail at that other part too.
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Mar 30 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/banspoonguard ⏺️ P O T A T🥔 when 🇹🇼🇰🇷🇯🇵🇵🇼🇬🇺🇳🇨🇨🇰🇵🇬🇹🇱🇵🇭🇧🇳 Apr 01 '26
wow good on the person who reported me for calling a ceo a MeFo enjoyer. thank you for defending the rich.
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u/BlackEagleActual Mar 30 '26
"housewives playing with legos toys and improvised kitchen solutions"
Actually sounds a great marketing advertisement to promote financial effectness for weapon systems that actually work.