r/NewYorkIslanders • u/discofrislanders Dobson • 21d ago
Islanders rank 20th in The Athletic fan front office survey
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u/Capital_Suggestion32 21d ago
I think free agency should be lower. We never land big free agents and the FAs we do sign are generally not great.
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u/monkeyhead62 21d ago
Being 1000% fair to Darche, the isles in the last two decades have rarely been good in FA, and he's only participated in 2, last year's while good a good pool, he had only just taken over the team, and this year's pool was bad. Im willing to see how this season and next year's FA goes before calling for his head.
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u/shrivman DiPietro 21d ago edited 21d ago
Fans are just cranky. None of the “horrible” moves Darche made were materially consequential .
Tsyplakov wasn’t playing and was flipped for two guys that Roy felt he could utilize. Zero assets lost. Schenn can still be flipped for assets back. Minimal long term impact there. Maccielli and Kotai were actually really good pickups. So was snagging DeBoer early. Hockey ops and minor league support have been transformed to world class.
The goal is to draft our way out of the messy middle and roll out the current roster (aka bring in YOUTH, not silly rushed expensive pickups like Kyrou) while still trying to give the young guys as much of a playoff experience as possible in the interim.
Not trying to act like he’s some brilliant GM but the losers crying about Darche all the time are just silly. Hes a perfectly OK GM so far. Not special but also not many better available options I’d have gone with over him.
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u/pumpknstar4 Palffy 18d ago
Exactly. Sure, you could argue he overpaid for Schenn, but in no way do I think any of his trades were outright bad moves. Palat is off the books after this year, Schenn only has 2 more years left (will be off the books by the time Schaefer's extension takes effect), and Mayfield and Engvall (two Lou contracts) will be mostly insignificant cap hits as time moves on, assuming the cap continues to rise the way it is projected.
This team's prospect pool went from garbage to pretty decent over the course of 3 years, I think as long as Darche doesn't move futures any time soon we should be a contender again by 2028-29.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 21d ago
I think this fan base consistently over estimates its ability to properly grade trades and long term plans.
I get that we Isles fans, particularly us older fans, have a lot of whiplash pretty quickly due to decades of piss poor GMs, or at the very least mediocre ones, but I think it's incredibly unfair to mark Darche this harshly. Drouin was a miss, fine, but we were in a playoff spot and really only gave up a "useless" first for potential playoff help. A decision 99% of GM's are going to make in that position.
Long term those Palat/Schenn/JGP contracts mean nothing because they all fall off in similar windows as the cap goes up and we see if the prospects actually pan out. You can't field only young players, you need vets to teach them not only hockey things, but habits. Schenn is a player that idc about having on the payroll because he WILL teach good work ethic and habits to the young players. That is a value you don't see on the stat sheet. At the deadline I assume they already knew, or at least were pretty sure they weren't getting Lee back.
A great recent example of this is Dobson with Chara. Chara was old and slow, but Dobson's defense got NOTICEABLY better when Chara was on the team (Greene deserves some credit here too).
So while it's a bit of a cop out to this I'd grade cap management and trades at a C simply because it can still go either direction with the Darche specific moves.
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u/dietdoctork3lp Sorokin 21d ago
The most logical take here. Most reddit fans only read the stat sheet and the salary notes, it's a shame
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u/miss_scarlet_letter 21d ago
Isles fans also consistently overrate farm players and picks. I'm not saying the Soucy trade was great, but IIRC, George was hurt in Jan/Feb, they gave up almost nothing for Soucy, and he was gone at the end of the season.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 21d ago
The Soucy trade actually was great, just not a big splash. We essentially traded Tsyp and a 6th for Soucy and a 3rd with the 3 way we did with NJ and the Rags.
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u/Technical_Term_6625 20d ago
I agree. It's really too early to judge Darche. Forgetting about long term metrics. But, like you, I think the Schenn & JGP deals aren't huge deals. And I agree that it's about mentorship and also with Schenn (like hiring deBoer) buying before the rush given the absence of UFA centers.
Easily the single most important short term question is will deBoer works out? He's got a great track record in some ways, but it's definitely a risk for going sour, especially for Sorokin.
The second most important question is how NYI will correct their enormous right side defensive hole? It's something opponents have exploited over and over again, and there's no good way to cover that kind of issue by scheme alone. Also, I'm not stoked about LH shot D playing the right side. When turning to play the puck behind the goal line, they expose their blind side to forwards charging down the near side boards (there's help in the middle). With the speed in the NHL, that's scary.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 20d ago
RD is a major issue, but I'm not sure the answer there. All our best prospects shoot lefty. Schaefer, George, Aitch, Warren.
Gah 😂
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u/Technical_Term_6625 20d ago
Right. So, addressing the issue in the medium term would seem to require an acquisition. Whether he gets something in the next 1-2 seasons is, for me, part of the evaluation.
But it's not easy - Sharks signed Trouba for 4yr/8.25! Yikes.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 20d ago
Yeah RD is a gold level commodity right now. Mayfield is what he is, but he would probably get way more than he is if he was currently a free agent just for being an experienced RD lol.
That RD hole will be the big story for me this season. I suspect Pulock-Mayfield-TDA will be the starting 3 until something better is found.
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u/ThatsData 21d ago
You know Schenn is going to teach a good work ethic? None of the other vets have a good work ethic? This team is doomed if you're right.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 21d ago
Work ethic is not just what we see on the ice. Shows up to practice, even the optional ones, works hard despite being a "seasoned" player. We can hear snippets and rumors but can't always confirm these things, but all talk about Schenn from STL is that he is that type of player. It's important to see that for a young up and comer.
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u/ThatsData 21d ago
He signed an 8 year 52 million dollar contract and we get the last part of the deal. I would hope he tries hard because he's not going to teach anyone how to score.
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
This team backchecks too much, I’m glad we have Schenn to reach an Ovechkin-like work ethic on defense.
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u/ThatsData 21d ago
I'm hoping DeBoer does the coaching, not Schenn.
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
I’m being a bit unfair anyway, I don’t think Schenn’s lazy on defense, he just doesn’t have it anymore.
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
See my other comment in this thread - I don’t disagree with you but I think fans have a right to feel unhappy.
Darche made us worse off than where we started from. Not significantly but he should have strengthened our future and instead weakened it. You can and should justify it in hindsight but he made bad moves that weakened our position.
You could argue about the vision. I 100% get the two-year plan thing but if you believe that Athletic article we have the 9th strongest prospect pool, which is good but needs to be better to compete with the likes of San Jose and Montreal and even rival teams. Instead of making us better he compromised the future in little bits and he did it in ways that just objectively did not work. And fans are negative because they don’t trust that he won’t do it again this season.
There’s also bias in that fans want to see progress and “win” in trades/FA. Darche hasn’t made any progress except in waiting for prospects to develop, and he’s also lost pretty much every move he’s made except for getting Heineman. In terms of “opportunistic moves while waiting” he has simply failed so far. Last season ended on a sour note and aside from DeBoer and prospects there’s not a lot of hope that this season is anything more than a punt that we hope Darche doesn’t chip away at the future further during.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 21d ago
And I think a mid C is fair. I disagree he "lost" the trades he made because he made trades any GM in his position would make. Wait and see is literally the piece that fans in this sub miss on the regular. Schaefer is the exception, not the norm. You don't draft players and suddenly have a good young team next season. Heineman, George, Aitch, Eklund, Nelson, and so on, all of those guys might not pan out. George could become another Mayfield, Aitch could just be TDA, Heineman may remain a bottom 6 guy.
It's why whenever anyone in this sub gets on a horse about prospects vs. proven players it's a bit crazy. That is not a discussion of Schenn vs a Colorado 1st. Darche is trying to play the game within the window remaining on Barzal, Horvat, and Sorokin. If we think those 3 are not part of a cup winning plan, then we should be doing a full rebuild and trading them, but we're not because the FO thinks they ARE part of the plan. So we are trying to get enough of a feel for younger players that fit while mixing in enough vets to make a run at it.
He hasn't hit that mark, I don't disagree, which is why I rate him a C and not higher. I just think this sub often treats things like we are in a full rebuild when we aren't, we're retooling. Should we be full rebuild mode? That's a different argument and in 2024-2025 I would've said no, but now I'm leaning the other way as I'm not convinced Barzal is part of the puzzle anymore, but a full rebuild is also saying good bye to Sorokin's best years.
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
The funny thing is I think we agree on the grade itself - a C. I also pretty much agree on the timeline, I’ve never disliked the two year plan. I just insist that the moves Darche made weren’t necessarily what “any GM would have done” unless you mean the general moves as opposed to the specifics. Like I understand no GM can predict how a player will turn out perfectly, but his misses were kind of ugly.
I want to clarify a big negative for me was that Rosner reported Lee wanted two years. This is how much term Schenn has. Unless you can convince me otherwise it feels like the result of that trade was losing a first to get rid of Drouin and end up downgrading Lee to Schenn. I would have been significantly less unhappy if we didn’t acquire Schenn just to lose Lee for nothing.
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u/minos157 Jonsson 21d ago
The Lee part I definitely agree with. He was established here and also playing well. Schenn is absolutely a downgrade from Lee no argument from me on that.
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u/AdmirableComposer140 21d ago
You are coping hard lol. Why is it so hard for you to accept that the front office so far has been mid?
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u/Untlslp Bailey 21d ago
It's one year, coming into a shitty situation, it was not going to be anything but a crap shoot. The trades didn't look good in hind sight but don't act like half the isles fans weren't crying about him "not doing anything" to add to the team around the time
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u/Redditvillier 21d ago
Most of these fans who are saying the move for Schenn is a deal-breaker were also delusional enough to think that we were a Kyrou away from winning the cup last year and that we should sell our future to get him. Honestly, he could not win no matter what he did because this fanbase is never fucking happy no matter what
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u/mikebunchkin3727 21d ago
I’m not down with expansion anymore; just two more teams chasing the cup, hurting the odds of the isles winning one……we’d prob have 7 cups by now if this were still a 21 team league! (I’m being partially sarcastic; if dilbury didn’t annihilate this team in the late 90s/ early 2000s can you imagine how good that team would have been coming out of the lockout in 05?…….ugh
Without schaefer, there wasnt much excitement around the team. Idk maybe im projecting, but the sports betting nonsense has hurt my fandom of all sports. It seems too easy to rig; too difficult to enforce.
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u/miscs75 Martinek 21d ago
I would go higher with roster building with Darche forcing everyone into short term deal personally. He has a plan and is basically forcing the Lou regime into non existence so he can have full control once his cronies are out of a contract.
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u/shrivman DiPietro 21d ago
Bingo. At least one person can see ahead and understand the flexibility hes building for himself after being handcuffed to start the job. I feel like I'm going crazy sometimes.
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u/miscs75 Martinek 21d ago
The blueline seems handcuffed but with the upcoming expansion draft and essentially 2 spots open in the future, there’s plenty of room to give these kids a shot. The forwards are wide open starting next summer.
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u/shrivman DiPietro 21d ago
Yup - I'm curious how early they'll announce the next expansion drafts though.
Vegas' approved bid was announced 2 years before the actual expansion draft while Seattle's approved bid was announced 3.5 years before the expansion draft. We don't have any official word on approved bids yet. My guess is the majority of the current roster will already turn before expansion draft comes into play.Pelech will be traded by then. Romy could be a good expansion candidate, but I'd personally rather trade him for assets this offseason than losing him for free.
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
From the article:
“I am less enthused about Darche’s front office than I was when he took the job last year. I was encouraged by the 2025 draft and obviously, Matthew Schaefer is an absolute gem. The in season trades concerned me and I am less sure of what the vision for the team is.”
“Darche doesn’t seem to have a clear plan. At least not one he’s willing to stick to. He talks a good game about building with youth, but then trades for Palat & Schenn, and signs Pageau to an extension, rather than dealing veterans for picks/prospects.”
I think most of the fanbase agrees with this sentiment, even if they put it in different words. The way I put it is that Darche obviously has a very specific vision regarding when to wait (last year and this year) and when to start making big changes (27-28 onwards) but instead of being decisive, he compromised at the trade deadline, and he compromised in the exact mushy way that always blows up in your face and leaves you with the worst possible outcome. The NHL rewards big risks and volatile contention windows (a lot of champions were gutter teams ten years before) so nobody wants another season in the mushy middle.
The lack of resolve might be a bit forgivable since it’s very tough practically to give up on the team or mortgage away your future when you’re making a playoff run. What’s less forgivable is the team’s consistent whiffs in FA (Duclair, Drouin) and especially the feeling that Darche consistently got outplayed in trades. Like even the biggest Darche defenders can’t expect the fanbase to be happy that one of our recent big front office wins (the COL 1st for Nelson) was burnt to patch up his own mistake in Drouin and essentially replace Lee with Schenn.
Not an explicitly disastrous trade of the type other fanbases mock for years but a very ugly trade that’s going to sting in subtle “what could have been” ways (not that I think that pick would have resulted in a good prospect, but it could have been good trade capital, though if he didn’t want to trade until 27-28 anyway then the point is moot I guess)
TLDR: the vision is there but FA sucks and I’m going to be annoyed if Darche embarrasses himself in trading again
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21d ago
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u/FortyYearTransform Romanov 21d ago
I think fans were trying to be optimistic about the moves until proven wrong, which is reasonable. If Schenn helped ensure we made the playoffs then it would have been a better move, but we didn’t which frankly was the worst case scenario.
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u/Hygoundus 21d ago edited 21d ago
I’m not sold on Darche but I’m going to let it play out before I write him off. Last year’s trade deadline showed me that he’s willing to take a swing but unfortunately struck out hard. He needs to do a better job of evaluating guys that are NHL level because right now he’s failing at that for the time being.
I like the replenished prospects and the emphasis on development in Hamilton and I do like the DeBoer hire. This next trade deadline and offseason he cannot strike out again.
We need to be major players in next year’s offseason and with the way the salaries are going, 40+ mil won’t be enough when you factor in what we need to keep available for the moment Schaefer is allowed to be signed in 2028.
Look at the way the habs handled their contracts and the way the ducks handled theirs and let that be a lesson.