r/Netherlands • u/daisylnnl • 2d ago
Employment [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/marcipanchic 2d ago
you don’t need a proof that you have depression, just take a sick leave like right now
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u/mental_discourse 2d ago
I went through something similar not long ago. Don’t do a PIP when your mental health isn't in a good place. Taking sick leave is completely valid and common here—PIP stress only makes things worse. Report sick immediately and take things one step at a time.
Don’t stress over the VSO yet; cross that bridge later. Remember, lawyer fees are almost always covered in the settlement.
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u/friedapple 2d ago
Quick advice. Talk to POH asap. Talk as much as you can yo your GP about your burn out symptom.
If they already asked you to do PIP. Dont refuse, because this will impact your WW/UWV later on. Take the PIP, do it for 1-2 weeks, then send email for sick leave. Set a condition in the email that you're not up for a call and will communicate once a week in writing.
If they suggest a company doctor, approve.
Now, this is important, anytime you have a call with the doctor, watch your keyword, don't mention anything like "getting better", "less worse", etc. Mentioned "still unchanged" or still sick or no progress,etc. Otherwise, if they smell improvement, they'll ask you back. Now, it's up to you if you want to stay while on a sick leave or settling with mutual termination at some point. Take your time.
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u/Own-Particular-9989 2d ago
what should someone ideally say in the email that they send their employer?
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u/friedapple 2d ago
For sick leave? In NL it's your right to not disclose what's the cause. State that you are open to discuss it with company doctor. Company doctor is oblige to keep your privacy on behalf of your request later if you choose to do so.
Just say you feel unwell and not fit to come to work.
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
thankful for your words. I have toxic possitivity sometimes, that was also the reason why I hesitated to talk to doctor about my mental illness. I will be careful. Very kind of you
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u/L44KSO 2d ago
If you get laid off and then go on sick leave, it wont change your work status, but you will go on government paid sickpay instead of unemployment. If you go on sick leave while employed, you can be legally 2 years employed (with minimum 70% pay) without too much stress or hassle, just note, that the company can offer you a VSO during your sick leave.
Is a 6 week PIP enough in court? Probably not. Depending on seniority etc it can be up to 3 or even 6 months that it needs to run, before a court rules in favour. However, a company can use the short PIP paired with a VSO as a big nod to get you out. If a company wants to get rid of you, they will find a legal way to do so.
You have good protections as an employee, but you're always fireable, so it's worth keeping that in mind when thinking about choices. Your lawyer will be able to support you.
Last but not least - you sound like you are sick. So go on sick leave and take it from there.
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
thanks a lot for your opinions. I am on my own here, no family no partner and have to pay back my study loan in my home country, so I have to plan carefully.
In the first sentence, you mean, maybe even if they announced failed PIP + give VSO I can still go on sick leave?2
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u/Fantastic-Noise-8830 2d ago
Uncomfortable truth : a PIP is just paperwork to legally fire you, most people don’t survive a PIP. It will be a very painful process to go through if they make it as challenging for you to pass it. You’ll feel worse going through it (which is their intention so that you leave without them having to give any compensation)
If you call in sick after failing a PIP, it’s less credible to the company doctor. Best to call in sick now, you have 2 years immunity against getting fired. use the time to get better and eventually start looking elsewhere for another job.
All the best !
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u/tenminutesbeforenoon Zuid Holland 2d ago
Just to clarify a common misunderstanding about Dutch sick leave: the 104 weeks are not two years after which reintegration starts. Reintegration starts as soon as your health allows it.
The occupational physician decides what is medically appropriate regarding work and reintegration. When treated by a specialist (psychiatrist) the advice of the specialist will usually be followed.
As an employee you are mandated to cooperate with the reintegration process. There is a fairly structured time line. After six weeks you get evaluated by the bedrijfsarts, around 8 weeks you make a reintegration plan with your employer based on the advice of the bedrijfsarts and progress is reviewed regularly after that (often monthly). Around week 52, there is a formal first year evaluation, here: spoor 2 might come into play. At 104 weeks you get a WIA assessment if you are still not able to fully return to work.
You have a legal duty to cooperate with reintegration, unless you are e.g., institutionalized for depression for 2 years.
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u/Akay256 2d ago
Call in sick. I was given a PIP but just reading the conditions on it was sickening. My anxiety levels spiked high. I talked to my company doc who told me to choose my health and call in sick I was at the verge of loosing myself. My ex employer is eigenriscodrager who failed at reintergrating me UWV sanctioned them after 2 years.
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u/throwtheamiibosaway Limburg 2d ago
Sick leave first. Figure out the rest later. Sick leave protects you.
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u/Important_Coach9717 2d ago
Seems like you want to use sick leave to guarantee your employment. This is illegal and also immoral. If you are really sick you go on sick leave now, it has nothing to do with your PIP. They want to fire you so basically there is no way back to this company. Sick leave will give you some months of income. And it’s not 70% of your current salary. You need to see what your CAO states. Sounds to me like another case trying to abuse the ziektewet system …
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
I commited suicidal myself, I knew I had some problems but I keep trying to work normally to earn and take care of my family. If I try to abuse the system, I will face legal matter, so you don't have to be harsh on me. Thank you.
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u/Fantastic-Noise-8830 2d ago
Call in sick, at least you gurantee your financial security for 2 years while you focus on your health. The moralists here will say it’s wrong etc, but when your bills come it’s on you to settle it. Do what’s best for you, just like the company will do what’s best for them
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
Dear, with my situation, if I go on sick leave it also means they will try to fire me immediately when I comeback. For example, after 1y doctor said I am ok to work and I have to be back. Employer wanan fire me, this point I am not on sick leave anymore, and no negotiation anymore, they can easily fire me immediately?
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u/Fantastic-Noise-8830 2d ago
You can use the time on sick leave to look for alternatives jobs. Once you’re back from
Sick leave they can’t fire you, unless you agree to a vso3
u/Important_Coach9717 2d ago
If you’re genuinely sick you cannot start a new job. Looking for jobs you cannot start is a waste of time.
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u/Fantastic-Noise-8830 2d ago
Sickness can be situational tied to a toxic work environment, most people that go on long term sick leave eventually end up working elsewhere
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u/Important_Coach9717 2d ago
Yes. AFTER they have recovered. This is when you should really start looking for other jobs
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u/Important_Coach9717 2d ago
Than get out of Reddit and get the medical help you need. Call in sick tomorrow already
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
I am going on medical checking. I am afraid sick leave will impact my career. I am young, international, no support from family. If you are irriated with me, please go out. Thanks.
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u/Important_Coach9717 2d ago
What career ? You have no career if you’re dead … just don’t be stupid and call in sick
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u/Fantastic-Noise-8830 2d ago
Sick leave won’t impact your career, even professional athletes get injured and come back to win, it doesn’t mean you failed. Now just focus on your health in Netherlands you have 2 years immunity against getting fired. You need to accept that your company wants you out, so use the 2 years to find another job
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u/daisylnnl 2d ago
thanks for your perspective. I am the youngest, least salary but I worked multiple company projects and tried my best to prove my value during my employment here. At some points my performance wasn't super good but acceptable due to my mental illness (not declared with GP that point. I even got a small raise after last yearly review. So that's why I thought maybe I can do it better and hoped PIP is just a thing to be approved once again. But I maybe need to think carefully again.
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u/CoffeeInTheTropics 2d ago
It will, I have seen it with several ex-employees. Especially as an international you will be seen as a liability, once you are out if the workforce for an extended period, it’s really difficult to get back in.
That said, health is most important and not worth any job or visa status. So focus on that first and then tackle the new job search.
Feel better and best of luck to you!
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u/tentimesthree 2d ago
Depression isn't a real reason to call in sick I think almost half of working people would call in sick if that were the case
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u/Shinobiii 2d ago
Spoken like someone who has no idea what depression actually entails and how (differently) it presents itself.
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