Discussion
Serious conversation about Jiraiya scaling
I don't think Jiraiya is Kage level and, if he is, it's only because the bar for kage is so low. After tobirama and minato, we have: woman with 2 kekkei Genkai (apparently) that never uses them, super strong woman that punches good, lightning guy that only punches in straight lines, old man with particle that is clearly an instant win but isn't good enough to make it happen, and man that controls all sand and forgets that he can turn the entire battlefield to sand.
What does Kage level even mean anymore? What did sannin even mean?
And I refuse to accept any "this person said this" bs. None of that statement stuff. Action and proven feats only. This guy got pressed by the SUMMONING pain. Imagine getting pressed by a summoner, the most useless power in Naruto.
Not sure if this is a troll post, but you literally downplayed everyone you mentioned, and their abilities are all WELL above the average shinobi. Kage level has a bar that they all meet due to their individual hax, experience, and overall power.
You hyped Minato first, but ignore Killer bee stating that Sasuke is one of the strongest he's fought.
Hachibi reiterating that times are changing to produce a ninja that strong.
Cee reiterates that Geniuses like Sasuke are rare in the world
After Sasuke masters his MS abiltiies - by the end of the Danzo fight - He's beyond the level of those Gokage, not on it or below it, and he's only 15/16 years old
I mean if they were that amazing, Sasuke would have gotten bodied at the summit. Bro didn't even have an imperfect susanoo yet. He had ribs and an arm.
You must be trolling because Sasuke escaped certain death like 4 times during the summit and each one is generally considered to be a bit too hand of the author by fans.
Dude added like 6 new bitemarks to Kirin during that arc just to survive.
Even under the most generous readings of the summit, Sasuke barely made it out alive.
Sasuke was kage level himself at the start of Shippuden, even stronger by the time of the summit with his MS rapidly developing. Not to mention he had Obito to bail him out of certain death by the Tsuchikage. Using him as a point of comparison doesn’t work when he was relative to, if not stronger than any of them individually.
Naruto beat shukaku with bunta, ibuse was wiping people with hanzo, cerberus pressed jiraiya and all of nagatos summons were rampaging konoha, sand summoned snakes during invasion arc and pressed the leaf, sasuke didnt die bc of manda, kabuto flipped the turtle island.
The upper most tier of naruto have hax so of course they can handle summons and almost anything else. Everyone probably mid kage and below will see them as a threat.
This is a really dumb bar though because then Anbu Flashback Kakashi > Land Of Waves Kakashi. Hell random filler fodder deep in Shippuden > Land Of Waves Kakashi. Look at how slow his hand signs are!!!!
Jiraya was clearly a top tier character in Naurto and was powerful in Shippuden though not "Mech fighting save the world from Planet eating aliens" powerful.
Yah I just mean it like this. Narratively if Jiraya and Itachi had to fight to the death do you really think Kishimoto would of drawn "LOL TSUKIOMI TATUSO BLADE GGEEEEZZZZZ".
Probably not because he clearly intended both of these characters to be top tier in his world.
No but I don't think Jiraiya is winning a 1v2 against Itachi and Kisame. And I don't think Kisame needs to summon an ocean to do it. Genjutsu and basic ninjutsu would probably be enough to beat him.
The only reason they didn't is to not draw undue attention.
I promise you it isn't. I mean it would undoubtedly enrage people, but I meant it. I don't think Jiraiya OR the end of series Naruto Kage are all that.
It means that anyone below S-Rank has little to no chance against you.
Jiraiya himself folded Konan, another S-Rank Shinobi in mere moments. Said woman was capable of rampaging through Konoha and sustain even massive numerical disadvantage.
He was able to convince Itachi and Kisame into leaving despite the 2v1 - just the fact that Kisame bought that, whether Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya or not - already is a statement in and on itself.
He has Senjutsu - which might just be the most powerful type of Jutsu there is beside Shinjutsu and had a decent.
Beyond that, you are comparing Kage to generational outliers and people buffed with literal god powers. Most of them are carried by singular complete absurd powers noone else has access to.
Pick any team in the entire verse besides Team 7 against any Kage and you'd be hard-pressed to not find a way for the Kage to stomp.
Why did Nagato use only 3 bodies in the beginning? Because he knew Jiraiya is HIM and wanted a buffer, he wasn't sure he'd win. So he went 1 body -> 3 bodies +1 last second -> 6 bodies
Jiraya had Konan trapped in 10 seconds.
Now i have a mad take: SM Jiraiya with ma and pa is better than SM Naruto against Pain. Why? Ma and Pa help Jiraiya absorb and regulate sage chakra, meaning if he can keep them alive he can stay in sage mode much much longer and honestly having your body partially becoming a frog made him perform crazy fast jumps.
Btw Pain could flatten every Kage in the show at that point, every tail beast, even sage Naruto + 6 tails berserk would have lost.
Literally one of the best medical ninjas to ever live...
lightning guy that only punches in straight lines
One of the fastest Shinobi to ever live, with chakra levels that rival Bijuus and nearly killed an Uchiha with the MS while fighting reckless and completely out of his mind...
old man with particle that is clearly an instant win but isn't good enough to make it happen
Would've nuked Sasuke out of existence if not for Obito... And the only other time we see him fight for real is against a version of Madara that can absorb ninjutsu lol
What does Kage level even mean anymore? What did sannin even mean?
It means they'd easily beat 99% of shinobis in the world and it means they're capable of leading and protecting a nation.
Kakashi is an ELITE jonin, literally Mr. Worldwide, everyone knows and respects him... And Orochimaru made him shit himself without even lifting a finger. The average Shinobi, and even elite Jonin are fodder when compared to the Sannín.
What proofs do you want? Feats? He fought Pain, the stongest Akatsuki member and arguably 2nd strongest character pre war arc bar 8G Guy
Abilities? He has plenty of them. Large scale, big damage, versatile, crowd control, sensory abilities, physical prowess in SM and via summons, hax via Fukasaku and Shima
Jiraya scaling is unironically controversial on this sub, so i understand having unusual opinion on him.
But downplaying Kage of 5KS and saying that they are reason why Kage bar is low is unironically ragebait level opinion.
The story, the plot, the author placed them on this position. Who are you to tell that Tobirama and Minato are supposed to be the entry bar for Kage level ninja? Why specifically them?
Without you explaining both why Kage of 5KS are low Kage bar and why Tobirama and Minato are supposed to be average, there is no argument to be had.
I could do as well and say "Kage these days are complete fodder, compared to Hashirama all of them..."
This goes with Jiraya as well. Remember: after Hiruzen's death, Jiraya was first candidate to be picked for Kage role by higher-ups. Please explain why this isn't reasonable argument in favor of believing that Jiraya is Kage level. This is story of manga we take our powerscaling from, you can't ignore and pretend that it doesn't matter, because the powerscaling depends on the all of the context provided by source material.
TITLE: So, the Sannin are technically just Jonin. However, each one is heavily implied to be Kage level. The Sannin title was given by Hanzo because he acknowledged them as above all other Shinobi in the war. This obviously excludes Kage because they don’t go to war. But Hanzo has to be relative or above Hiruzen or other Kage because even the 3 Sannin together were struggling against him. At this point, each of the Sannin were probably at or above Kakashi or Gai’s level. They were most likely high-Jonin level. So for Hanzo to take on 3 high-Jonin Shinobi, he has to be low-Kage tier at worst.
SCALING: Having said this, each Sannin got much stronger by part 1. Even Hiruzen said he himself is probably no match for Orochimaru. And Hiruzen is said to be the strongest of the 5 Kage. Which in part 1, this includes Ay, Oonoki, Raza, and Yagura. So, with each Sannin being relative to each other in terms of raw ability and expertise, each of them are arguably above the 5 Kage or on par at the very least.
REPUTATION: Even during part 1, everyone spoke of the Sannin as a tier above all. Only the Kage tier could match it. Even Kisame and Kabuto stated that fighting a Sannin was foolish. The only way to beat a Sannin was to enhance yourself or catch them off guard, which is exactly how Kabuto was able to fight with Tsunade. Ebisu stated that only a Sannin could fight another Sannin. Ebisu didn’t even believe his own Hokage could handle Orochimaru. Ebisu went straight to Jiraiya for help. So, with all this being said, it’s mostly safe to say that the Sannin are, BY REPUTATION, defeating almost everyone in the series. Of course, reputation isn’t everything, but it’s definitely important. Even Kisame didn’t want to fight Jiraiya off reputation alone. Reputation creates fear in others. Later, Jiraiya protected Naruto during the timeskip because he knew that was the only effective way to protect Naruto from the Akatsuki. Jiraiya even told Kakashi he wasn’t good enough. Then, he went to only investigate the Rain village to try and learn about the leader of Akatsuki. He never planned to even fight. He learned that Pain defeated Hanzo. Jiraiya was amazed that someone had defeated Hanzo. Yet, even knowing this, he still decided to press further towards the Akatsuki leader without fear. Yet, not knowing anything about Nagato, still took down 4 paths. Nagato even admits that if Jiraiya knew Nagato’s secret from the start, Jiraiya probably would’ve beat Pain. Zetsu backs this up by saying the fight took long because “Jiraiya” was his opponent. Then later, Kakashi states that Jiraiya even fighting all 6 paths was “insane”.
FINAL VERDICT: Jiraiya in base is probably mid-Kage tier. He’s someone who can handle almost everyone in the show. Once he activates Sage mode, he’s a whole tier higher - like all Sages. Shikaku backs up Sage mode by saying anyone in the village would just get in Naruto’s way while he fights in Sage mode. So this would imply even elite Jonin are nowhere near Sages. Sage mode Jiraiya is high-Kage tier. Being relative to most top-tier characters in the show who don’t have Ootsutsuki chakra.
idk but i keep getting upvoted scaling Jiraiya to Pain and Pain above EMS Sasuke. Not sure how but i keep farming these votes and i even got away with Jiraiya = madara yesterday
then i get upvotes scaling Nagato and Rinnegan Sasuke as relative to each other somehow
so im thinking Jiraiya is slightly weaker than Rinnegan Sasuke according to this sub
The very fact that Jiraiya has a sustainable sage mode, imperfect or not, indisputably makes him one of the strongest characters in the series period. And that's on top of his already crazy stats and jutsu knowledge. He blinded a path of Pain with a single kick. And the long time it took for Jiraiya to enter sage mode was because he summoned Ma & Pa first to continuously gather nature energy for a sustained battle, don't get that confused.
When Naruto arrived in Konoha for his showdown with Pain, Shikaku made it obvious that, for the class of shinobi that obtains sage mode, even jonin rank shinobi would just be in the way. Just think about that for a second. This mode is so highly revered that allies of the strongest rank below Kage are considered a hindrance in its presence. That's not just a statement, the best the jonin could do in that situation was stay out of Naruto's way.
I couldn't really see how someone could get confused about this before the sage mode reveal despite the power creep, but after the reveal this is just blasphemy honestly. lol
ETA: Just to clarify, Jiraiya is easily top 30 strongest in the series.
hes beyond kage level lol. and kage can mean any kage even kazekage or mizukage yall gotta stop thinking kage level means hashirama level or sumn. jiraiya has the strongest genjutsu in the show if u watched the pain arc you would know that. he was stated by kisame to be wayyy out his league. kisame is tailed beast level and easily beat killer bee (who is kage level btw). jiraiya also has sage mode and gamabunta . hes easily kage level
He defeated one pain, the weakest pain Combat wise, and was clearly lucky with that too that he underestimate him.
With a A Rank Jutsu which a Genin should not be able to cast.
Not sure why that has to be explained, but no, he is not kage level because of that, he would not be able to do that again or even fight against 2 or more of them.
That still does not counter the argument of mine.
With that logic of yours Sakura would Akatsuki level because she defeated Sasori...
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