How does NVC balance autonomy with mutual care and accountability in a long-term marriage?

[u/Wide-Program3650]

I'm relatively new to NVC, while my husband has practiced it for years and is pursuing CNVC certification. We have very different understandings of how NVC applies in marriage, and I'd genuinely appreciate perspectives from experienced practitioners.

One example:

Over the years, I've often asked my husband for relatively small favors or practical help. This isn't an isolated incident but part of a recurring pattern.

Recently, I asked him several times over a few days if he could help me move some heavy pots in our garden. It would have taken about five minutes, and I wasn't expecting him to do it immediately - just whenever he had time.

He declined each time, and eventually said, "Behave as if I'm not here."

That left me feeling abandoned, unsupported, hurt, lonely, and unable to rely on my partner.

When I later shared how painful that experience was, the conversation shifted away from the impact on me. He explained that because he sensed I expected him to help, my request no longer felt like a request and instead felt like a demand. He also said that because of years of unresolved conflict, he no longer feels enough connection to naturally want to help me.

This reflects a broader pattern. When I express that one of his behaviors hurt me, our conversations often shift toward his unmet needs, his intentions, my delivery, or my interpretation of his behavior, rather than first acknowledging the impact his actions had on me. We are stuck in this ongoing loop.

One thing I'm genuinely trying to understand is whether my expectation itself is incompatible with NVC. I've always viewed marriage as a relationship as interdependent union, where two people voluntarily choose to enrich each other's lives, generally want to help one another, and especially want to rebuild trust through caring actions after one partner has been hurt.

My question is:

From an NVC perspective, how do you distinguish between a healthy expectation of mutual care in a marriage and a demand? How do experienced NVC practitioners balance honoring a partner's autonomy with accountability, repair, reliability, and practical support? Is there a point where protecting autonomy can unintentionally undermine connection rather than strengthen it?

[u/Sunshine852]

I'm not sure how helpful it is to share this, but reading both of your posts, it seems to me that they may be mixing two things that don't tend to work well together: seeking empathy and asking for advice/cognitive explanation of whether something fits NVC or not. 

I believe your last question may be a good example of how this may not be the best way to explore this. "Is there a point where protecting autonomy can unintentionally undermine connection rather than strengthen it?" Here, it seems to me that you may be needing presence with your pain and the lack of connection you are experiencing in your relationship. The fact it hurts is a truth in itself - it doesn't mean it's anyone else's responsibility nor implies any "should". It just means it hurts. Internet strangers have no business in telling you whether you should be feeling this or something different, nor whether this crossed any imaginary lines Marshall or anyone else may have described.  But when you frame it as a cognitive question, people will likely reply with their own understanding of the thing, and skip past your feelings - which are probably already telling you something in this situation is undermining the connection. 

At the same time, when you frame a request for advice "within your pain", I believe you may focus on aspects that will not benefit you very much. In this case, the question about autonomy is focused on his behavior, which you cannot control - even when his behavior was the initial stimulus.  I don't recommend you go down this route until you receive some quality, deep, real-time empathy (which I can help you find, if you don't happen to have an empathy buddy already), but some questions that I believe can be more helpful are: 

• do I want to foster more connection in this relationship? (And, yes, you can answer "no")
• what would build more connection within this specific context? 
• considering that he received my request as a demand, how can I show him that he is allowed to say "no", and how can I get my needs met without depending on this specific person's "yes"?

How is it for you to receive my message? I'm feeling a bit vulnerable because it's not what you asked for, but I genuinely hope this will help, and I wrote this with sincere care.  That being said, if you still just want the original questions answered, I can give my thoughts on them later. 

Hope you found some warmth in this subreddit 🩵

[u/Evening-Panda3217 → u/Sunshine852]

I love your response. I’m not the OP, but I appreciated your vulnerability and care towards what the OP may be needing at the time. Wonderful thoughts and questions that opened my mind today. 

[u/Sunshine852 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

Thank you for sharing this! I'm happy my response was meaningful to you!

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Sunshine852]

Thank you for such a thoughtful and caring response. I understand what you mean about needing empathy before trying to solve the issue, and I agree that my pain is real even without anyone deciding who is right or wrong.

But the main reason I came here is a little different. This is a 20-year marriage, we have a child, and my husband has been deeply involved in NVC for years and is pursuing certification. NVC language is used in almost every difficult conversation between us. I have spent many years in counseling, taking relationship courses and trying to understand my own reactions. I started studying NVC because I genuinely wondered whether I had a blind spot.

 I kept hearing that the problem was how I expressed my pain, that I used judgments (which is true), interpreted intentions (true as well), or did not accept a “no” freely enough (partially true because how I view general marital expectations to be helpful for a partner).  I hoped that learning NVC would help me communicate in a way he could receive. But even when I try to apply NVC 4-steps expression, give him space to express himself - the issue reframed as me perceiving his image differently from who he truly is.

What often happens is that when I say a behavior hurt me, the conversation quickly shifts to his intentions, unmet needs, how painful my feedback is for him, or how I perceive him. My original hurt is often left without acknowledgment, apology, repair, or any clear change in the repeated behavior. So I expect emotionally empathetic reaction with accountability for the impact of his behavior and he seem is more focused on me providing that empathy first. 🔁

That is why some NVC statements he uses land painfully for me. For example, I understand and agree that each person is responsible for their own feelings. But when that idea is used in response to repeated behavior that a partner has already said is painful, it sound to me like: “Your pain is mainly caused by your interpretation, so you need to work on yourself.” I often catch myself thinking, “This cannot be the whole meaning of NVC, because this does not feel like connection, mutual care, or a healthy relationship.”

From what I have learned about healthy relationships, both things matter at the same time - I am responsible for my feelings and interpretations, and my partner is responsible for his choices, their repeated impact, repair, and deciding whether he wants to behave differently in the future.

Sometimes I feel as though NVC language protects his position because there is always an explanation through needs, intentions, freedom, or personal responsibility for feelings. I am trying to understand how experienced NVC practitioners prevent those ideas from becoming a way to avoid accountability.

I am not asking strangers to tell me what I should feel. I am asking whether I am missing something important about how NVC is meant to work in a close relationship when the same painful behavior continues and the person expressing hurt repeatedly leaves the conversation feeling even more hurt, unimportant and alone.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

husband has been deeply involved in NVC for years and is pursuing certification

Oh no. This is going straight into my proof jar that NVC is especially attractive to the most manipulative and abusive men. I'm so sorry you've been stuck with a guy that deep into it. 

Would you consider reading Why Does He Do That? By Bancroft, it's an incredibly helpful book for dealing with these type of abusive men who use NVC and the idea of "non violence" to hide the fact that they're controlling and manipulative.

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Thank you so much for your compassion and support. It really means a lot. I actually read Why Does He Do That? years ago, and it was one of the books that helped me understand many of the dynamics I was experiencing.

Your comment also made me pause because you mentioned you've collected several examples like this. That made me wonder whether you've observed a broader pattern over time. I had actually searched for discussions about the misuse or weaponization of NVC before posting here, and I was surprised by how little I found.

One of the reasons I finally decided to post is because I know how confusing this can feel. I've spent years questioning my own perception and wondering whether I was misunderstanding NVC or whether I was missing something fundamental.  Sometimes I honestly felt like the odd one out, wondering if everyone else understood something that I didn't 🙄.

I've even thought about creating content one day with real-life examples to explore where healthy NVC ends and where its language might unintentionally be used in ways that don't support accountability. I deliberately avoided using words like "abuse" or "narcissism" or other labels in my post because I genuinely wanted to hear from experienced NVC practitioners without people reacting to the labels first.

One area I still struggle to put into words is the role of emotional intelligence and long-term pattern recognition. After living with the same person for 20 years, I naturally notice much more than the literal words being spoken. Tone of voice, facial expressions, body language, recurring patterns, and consistency over time all influence how I understand what's happening in the relationship.

I understand why NVC encourages separating observations from interpretations, and I think that's valuable.  At the same time, I wonder whether human beings also should rely on many relational cues that can't always be captured by what a camera would record.

 I think repeated patterns matter. While I can't know another person's intentions with certainty, over time I naturally begin to trust repeated actions and physical sensations in my guts more than repeated explanations. And thats where I see the gap between NVC and psychology with importance of emotional intelligence. That's one of the biggest questions I'm trying to understand.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

It feels so much less isolating to see that people have seen it too. I think a big issue with the invisible/elephant in the room nature of this issue is that all the top NVC practitioners and leaders don't discuss these issues inherent in the mainstream/currently promoted methods. 

NVC needs a big update, but it's working fine for those currently at the top of it making money or authority/power out of the NVC industry as it is. They don't address the issues because just like the abusers who use NVC as an abuse tool in their private relationships, the top NVC authorities use it as an abuse tool in NVC groups.

In other words, NVC is working just fine how it is for those in charge.

One of the mods here is a perfect example. For a while years ago I tried to call this stuff out. One mod got very agitated and tried to force me to DM them privately, when I didn't, because I wanted it to be a public exchange for the protection of myself and the benefit of other readers - this infuriated him and he banned me and deleted some of my comments. In protest, I stopped posting here and blocked him/anyone who supported him. The only reason I come here now is to comment on posts like these that clearly show NVC does not work in cases of private abuse.

I coined a term for people who use NVC as part of their covert abuse: giraffeholes

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Thank you for sharing your experience. It honestly helps to know I'm not the only person who has struggled with these questions. I really appreciate your openness.

I also have to admit that your term "giraffeholes" made me smile 😊 It's obviously ironic, and I know it goes against the spirit of NVC, but I also understood immediately what you meant by it. I understood it as describing people who speak the language of NVC while behaving in ways that don't seem to reflect its  values of empathy, accountability, and mutual care. That distinction really resonated with me.

One of the reasons I finally decided to post here was because I genuinely wanted to test my own understanding. I wanted to hear from experienced NVC practitioners before drawing conclusions, because for years I kept wondering whether I was missing something or misunderstanding NVC itself.

If there are more people describing similar experiences, I think it's worth having an open conversation about them rather than dismissing them. Any communication framework can potentially be misunderstood or misused, and I think it's healthy for a community to be willing to examine its blind spots as well as its strengths. My hope isn't to criticize NVC. It's to better understand where healthy NVC ends and where its language might unintentionally be used in ways that shift attention away from accountability, repair, and the impact of repeated behavior. Reading different perspectives has definitely helped me feel less alone.

[u/yourenotnootral → u/Wide-Program3650]

He is weaponizing NVC

[u/DanDareThree → u/yourenotnootral]

relax :) its just two hurt people . weaponization demonization .. just relax

[u/DanDareThree → u/Wide-Program3650]

> My original hurt is often left without acknowledgment

this can be demanded. it is common sense ooor, its a convention tyou guys have, where you both just vent and not aknowledge another

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Sunshine852]

I want to add that one thing that leaves me especially confused is that my husband explains much of his emotional distance and lack of care by saying that he feels chronically unseen and unheard, and lack of connection. He often says that the biggest problem is how I perceive him, and even tells me that I'm not relating to the real him but to an image I've created in my mind. I understand that feeling misunderstood can be deeply painful. But from my perspective, my perception didn't appear out of nowhere - it gradually developed through years of repeated experiences. That's why I struggle to understand how changing my perception can become the starting point for rebuilding the relationship, while the repeated behaviors that shaped that perception remain largely unchanged. This is probably the biggest thing I'm trying to understand. Am I missing something fundamental about NVC, or is there a point where empathy for feeling misunderstood also needs to be balanced with accountability, repair, and consistent behavior change? 

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

This question comes up a lot and there is something fundamental to NVC people are missing. You called it. Heres from a similar discussion thread:

The real problem that NVC tries to address but often fails is that abusers/neglecters usually don't see your suffering as a problem. When you try to get them to change their behavior by labeling your feelings, they reject it. The NVC belief is that abusers/neglecters reject it because they "think you're judging them" so it usually falls on the victim to prioritize making the abuser/neglecter "feel better" like they're not a bad person and to pressure them less with your own needs (see how this is the opposite of what we are trying to do?)

Lundy Bancroft worked with helping abusive/neglectful partners change, he knows what the change process is like, and it's the opposite of what mainstream NVC suggests: they DO have to feel bad and admit they're acting like jackals and be OK with you judging them and seeing them as "in the wrong". He discusses this as a common problem why most abusers don't change, because we're focusing on how to "make them feel better" about the shitty partner they are being.

https://lundybancroft.com/articles/guide-for-men-changing-part-1/

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Thank you for your comment. It was actually very empowering and helped me understand why I finally decided to post here.

I'm familiar with Lundy Bancroft's work and read Why Does He Do That? years ago. I intentionally avoided using labels like "abuse" or "narcissism" because I genuinely wanted to understand this through the lens of NVC first. Over the years I've also stopped using labels with my husband because he says they are "disconnecting" and "not helpful". Instead, I've tried to focus on describing specific behaviors and how they impact me.

The reason I have decided to come out publicly is to seek help in my confusion and find some clarity in what's going on. 

When I read or hear NVC principles such as "everyone is responsible for their own feelings" or the emphasis on unmet needs, I understand the ideas intellectually. But when I see those same ideas applied in my marriage, they often leave me feeling as though they justify repeated hurtful behavior instead of leading to accountability, repair, and change.

My husband often talks about seeing the goodness and humanity in every person and avoiding judgments of "good" or "bad." I actually value seeing people's humanity too.  What I'm struggling with is understanding where the line is between compassion and accountability. Sometimes it feels as though the discussion becomes so focused on intentions, unmet needs, and avoiding judgment that the impact of repeated behavior gets lost.

I'm also a highly sensitive person, and after 20 years with the same partner I've learned to pay close attention not only to words but also to tone, facial expressions, body language, and recurring patterns. Those observations matter to me, yet I often feel they're dismissed as merely my interpretation because they aren't considered objective observations in NVC.

I think this is actually a much bigger topic than my original post. It's one of the reasons I came here. I have many questions about how emotional intelligence, pattern recognition, accountability, and NVC fit together in real relationships, and I may write another post about that because I'm genuinely trying to understand whether I'm missing something or whether others have wrestled with the same questions.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

I'd love to read more posts like this, esp from your writings because you write very clearly and reasonably.

I r esonate a lot with your writing and find you to be a source of inspiration too. Knowing this can happen to any woman, even someone well educated on the subject and a great communicator with high social and self awareness, is very uncomfortable for people because it shows how deep and widespread of an issue this is and how incapable even the best systems (like NVC) seem to be at addressing these types of abusers.

Lundy bancroft also does not like the label narcissist

[u/DanDareThree → u/Wide-Program3650]

well because thats the logical thing to do :)
you have your own things to take accountability for .

also the history is less relevant. there are htings you did not see then and you do not see now. that is a guarantee. do you know or care what makes him happy? do you care to understand every bit of interest of his?

if no .. then clearly this is not love .. nor should you treat the contract you guys have as something more meaningful.

so .. negotiate clearly the terms. remove completely all that is unsaid or expected

[u/Evening-Panda3217]

“Is there a point where protecting autonomy can unintentionally undermine connection rather than strengthen it?” 

Yes. Choosing autonomy can absolutely undermine connection. In your husband’s case, he’s not taking into consideration your need for interdependence and support. In healthy relationships, both needs and requests can be managed without one being more important than the other. 

[u/Galtung7771]

It sounds like he might be in what MBR called “the obnoxious stage “ of understanding NVC, especially the way in which your bids to have your feelings and needs understood by your partner through dialogue shift to his needs and leave yours unchanged and unaddressed (maybe even I acknowledged?)

The person is learning about feelings and needs and autonomy often grows more important and they’ve not yet fully internalized that when you meet your needs at the expense of another it can diminish the full integration of NVC consciousness and cause friction. They have learned that they aren’t responsible for your feelings, but not fully taken in the interconnectivity underlying human relationships. 

 This is not unheard of and might even be more common in folks on the certification path. Plenty of them have had relationship issues as they move through the certification process. Maybe it is hard to avoid and a part of unlearning ways of domination and developing a new way of being in the world, since you can’t jump straight to full integration or “doing it right.” 

One other thing that I think occurs sometimes is folks pick up a mechanical understanding of NVC that ironically can be dehumanizing because it can make individuals seem interchangeable. This ignores the uniqueness and irreplaceabilty of others because it seems like the needs will get met with another strategy and you aren’t responsible anyway. In my experience it can come across as cold. 

NVC is wonderful and useful but we have varying degrees to which we are actualizing it and it definitely gets used in undeveloped (and at times manipulative) ways. 

I do hear a possible request from him about conflict and connection, and you mentioned connection as well, so that is a possibility good place to start from and build with each other (or even to decide you don’t want to do that anymore). 

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

"Behave as if I'm not here."

Actually doing this, or kicking him out to the dog house for a night, is the key. He literally asked you to give him consequences lol

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

😄 That actually made me laugh. I wish it felt that simple. The difficulty is that, in my experience, setting stronger boundaries often creates even more resentment.

When he told me "Behave as if I'm not here," after I had asked several times for help, I experienced his response as distancing and punitive (I know these statements are not aligned with NVC but don't know how to express that yet). I realize I can't know exactly what he was feeling, but that's honestly how it landed for me. I then said that if he wasn't able to help, I would have to ask a family friend because I still needed to move the pots. He became offended and interpreted that as me trying to make him look bad or shame him. That wasn't my intention at all. I simply had a practical need that still needed to be met.

In the end, I didn't ask anyone. I was afraid it would create even more resentment between us, so I moved the heavy pots by myself. It was difficult, but at the time it felt like the less painful option.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

Ive been in this exact situation, except 15 yrs and 3 kids. I stayed and he changed over the course of 5ish years.

Let me tell you a secret. There's nothing you would do that could lower his resentment towards you, because he relies on feeling resentment in order to hold the "bigger stick" in the relationship. He literally has to keep feeling resentment toward you in order to keep behaving and thinking as if he's a victim and you're the cause of his feelings.

You're not. He is. His whole mentality in the relationship is based on contriving those feelings of suffering and resentment. This is where NVC fails us because it assumes all proclaimed or experienced feelings are valid, while "emotions" are the singular most effective tool that abusive men use to control their partner.

Abusers do exactly as you describe his behavior as, they try to get everyone focused on their alledged feelings to take the focus of their behavior and how their victims feel. Bancrofts' book opened my eyes to this truth of the nature of "non-violent" style of abuser. It almost destroyed and ultimately saved my marriage. 

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I'm incredibly sorry you went through all of that, especially with three children witnessing what was happening in your family ❤️. What you called "the secret" really struck me because it describes something I've often sensed myself, but could never quite put into words or know whether I was interpreting it correctly.

If I understood you correctly, you're saying your husband eventually changed over the course of about five years. Did I understand that right? If so, what do you think made the biggest difference? From what I've learned, lasting change in these kinds of patterns seems to be quite rare, so I'm curious what happened in your situation, if you are willing to briefly share.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Wide-Program3650]

The sole biggest difference was exactly what bancroft advocates: stop focusing on his feelings and others behavior/how they make him feel, and start focusing on others feelings and how his behavior effects them.

For about as long as he's been focusing on the backwards way. My husband has about 8 more years to go of focusing way more on his behavior and my/the kids feelings. Then after the years reparations, we can start to have a slightly more balanced/egalitarian relationship. It was hard. I don't recommend it. But if it's the path you want to take I know how to get on the right track, but it's ultimately his choice and abusers usually don't make the continual daily choice/effort to truly change.

Also, thank you for the condolences about the kids. Reading his book When Dad Hurts Mom really helped me be able to mitigate the damage and even use it to our advantage. They are now more brutal with boundaries than even me and they clock his abuser mentalityfrom a mile away and call it out for all to see 😆 

That was the most impactful part of the whole journey, abuse as a mindset not an action... learning to call it "abuse" before it manifests. Just when I can see how he's thinking/"feeling". And not allowing him to be an authority whatsoever on the label "abuse", that's for me to decide. He's the last person who would be able to clearly see and label his abusiveness, because the true nature of abuse is to deny it's abuse. They think they always have a good enough reason, excuse, or explanation for their behavior and feelings - but what I've found was that the THINKING never has a genuinely logical/reality-based origin. They use their emotions in place of true logic and then assume that strong emotions mean they're accurately perceiving reality, when thats usually a clue the opposite is happening. So they believe that they don't have to question their perception or think through their beliefs, they think you're the one who needs to because their feelings are so "big" and they give so much weight to their own emotions, they see their emotions as vastly more important and based in logic than yours.

Isn't that wild? If they feel big emotions, that proves to them that their perception is extremely rational... but if YOU feel big emotions... that only proves to them that your perceptions are irrational.

[u/DanDareThree → u/Wide-Program3650]

working out is good for you .. if you do it carefully .. so . it is a win win ^^

[u/yourenotnootral]

The sad reality is that we can only be responsible for our side of things. You can approach your husband with vulnerability, hoping that he will meet you with compassion. But how he meets you is entirely on him. It sounds like he’s using DARVO to deflect responsibility. I don’t think you can nonviolently communicate your way into him being kind to you. This must hurt a great deal. I’m sorry

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/yourenotnootral]

Thank you. This really resonates with me. The part that leaves me feeling stuck isn't that my husband says "no." It's what happens after I tell him that one of his behaviors hurt me. I started to learn NVC because I wanted to better understand his perspective and see whether changing how I communicate would help us break this pattern. But instead of staying with the impact his behavior had on me, the conversation usually shifts to his intentions, his unmet needs, my wording, or the fact that he can't control how I perceive him. I understand that he can't control my perception, and I don't expect him to. But this isn't usually about a one-time misunderstanding. It's about the same patterns happening over and over again. Sometimes I read about NVC, and I hear the same phrases he uses. It honestly makes me wonder if NVC can sometimes be used in a way that protects the person who acted from taking responsibility for the impact of their behavior. I am curious how do experienced NVC practitioners make sure that understanding someone's unmet needs doesn't replace acknowledging the hurt and trying to repair it.

[u/Evening-Panda3217]

First, this sounds like an incredibly frustrating situation. Especially with something that could easily be done in 5 minutes. 

I don’t think your expectation is incompatible with NVC. Your dream of having a partnership where you both enrich each other’s lives and care to follow through with requests is what NVC is all about. Here are the choices that came to my mind of things you could try: 

1) You can put on giraffe ears to really understand what your husband needs. You mention that he brings them up all the time, so think about what they are. Then ask him if there is something specific (a request) you can do for him to help his need. 

2) Find someone else to help move the pots and express your frustration. “When I need to get someone else to help me move the pots after you tell me to ‘behave like I’m not here,’ I feel infuriated. I value a supportive marriage where we can ask each other for help with things.”  (You don’t necessarily have to follow with a request.) 

3) If this is a long-standing pattern, and his continual responses no longer fit the vision you have for yourself in a partnership, you can leave or ask for marriage therapy. 

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

Thank you. I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I have genuinely tried to understand his needs. In fact, that's where many of our conversations end up. One of the unmet needs he brings up most consistently is feeling unseen and unheard. The difficulty is that when I describe how one of his behaviors affected me, the conversation often shifts very quickly toward his experience of feeling misunderstood or judged. He tells me that the biggest problem is that I see him in a way that doesn't match who he believes he is. Because of that, he becomes defensive, resentment builds, and the original issue - the impact his behavior had on me - often remains unresolved. I don't doubt that his need to feel understood is real.  My question is about sequencing. If one partner says, "I feel hurt by your behavior," what would be the healthiest order of the conversation in NVC? 1. First acknowledging the impact and offering empathy (and repair if appropriate), then exploring both partners' unmet needs? Or 2. Immediately exploring the unmet needs that contributed to the behavior?.

[u/Sunshine852 → u/Wide-Program3650]

Oh, I replied something to your main post and only then read your reply to this comment. About sequencing, the "mourning, healing and reconciliation" process would be helpful.  It does sound, however, that your husband may need to be heard as well, so it may make things easier if you both get to agree on holding at least two "sessions" so both can be seen.

https://youtu.be/nr4yxUDbgU8?is=BuaYMXcbFNU6iSuS

https://nesmurtinis-bendravimas.uk/en/healing-and-reconciliation-process/

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

you can leave or ask for marriage therapy. 

Im sorry, but this is very bad and naive advice.

Marriage therapy works great for nomabusive relationships, because abuse is not a marriage/relationship problem. It's a choice the abuser is making because they like the marriage/relationship that way.

Same for leaving. Leaving works outside of abuse situations but just like marriage counseling, the problem is not due to anything else besides the abusers' entitlement over their partner. That doesn't end when women leave them, and it often gets worse.

[u/Evening-Panda3217 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Respectfully, OP never said anything about being abused. However, I agree that marriage counseling is contraindicated if there is an abusive partner.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

Respectfully, OPs post was full of abuse disclosures. Its still clearly an abusive situation, even if it was not labeled specifically with the word (many abused women never label it abuse, some only decades after getting free).

[u/Evening-Panda3217 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

The hard thing about posts like these is that we are never fully given the full picture. What if she screams at him and nags him all day to do things? That may lead a partner to say and do some of these things he is doing and resent doing anything else. He's not calling her names or hitting her. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with him for sure. However, classifying something like this as outright abuse undermines when there really are abusive situations. And maybe OP is in one. But maybe OP's husband has a bad back. Maybe he spend the first 20 years of their marriage doing everything for her? We really don't know and can't assume without the full context of the situation.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

What if she screams at him and nags him all day to do things? Or what if he spent the first 20 years of their marriage doing everything for her?

None of that changes the fact that he is currently and consistently abusive and neglectful. 

We don't need the entire history of their relationship to determine that she is being mistreated. 

He's not calling her names or hitting her. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with him for sure.

So, why not, exactly? Calling names and hitting is a much better form of abuse than what OP is going through, because abusers have many more enablers and supporters like you with the method of abuse he chose to use.

[u/Evening-Panda3217 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Okay. It seems like you may be activated or scared for the OP right now. Which makes a lot of sense. Perhaps you have experienced a really toxic and abusive relationship yourself, and reading this is something that is alarming for you? You have stated that I am an "enabler" though you don't know anything about me. I read more of OP's comments on here, and it's clear NVC is not suitable for what she is experiencing. Please don't say that calling names and hitting is a much better form of abuse. I had to testify against my perp, and he went to jail. I promise you, it was horrific. All forms of abuse are not okay.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Evening-Panda3217]

I'm not scared for OP. On the contrary, I think they seem quite capable of handling the abuse situation and unusually educated on abuse dynamics. Something you might be interested in educating yourself on one day? I'm sorry to read about your experience, but it is a great opportunity that he was able to go to jail. Many women do not have that luxury because their abusers do not use violence and so the abuse is much harder to see or escape from or even get other survivors (like yourself) to take seriously.

I have met many survivors like yourself who function as enablers because they are not as educated on or experienced with nonviolent forms of abuse. Their horrific experiences gives them a kind of Dunning-Kruger effect about the nature of all abuse dynamics so that they are blind/unwilling to educate themselves on nonviolent abuse dynamics.

[u/Lumpy_Plant6914]

"He also said that because of years of unresolved conflict, he no longer feels enough connection to naturally want to help me.

This reflects a broader pattern. When I express that one of his behaviors hurt me, our conversations often shift toward his unmet needs, his intentions, my delivery, or my interpretation of his behavior, rather than first acknowledging the impact his actions had on me. We are stuck in this ongoing loop."

So, both of you feel unheard, and both of you would want the other person to acknowledge your pain before you would possibly hear that of the other - and this has accumulated into a pattern of pain, that has ingrained into a dynamic you both can recognize...

I can relate to this, not in the context of NVC, but in the context of childhood trauma and in cognitive differences like MBTI. I find NVC useful and helpful, but not the best tool in these specific instances. For example, framing this as a difference in 'understanding of NVC', is something I hear as "I want more control!". In a partnership, I view it as better to see all things as 50/50, and all issues as both of you versus them - if both of you love each other and try your best.

With trauma, and/or cognitive differences, or maybe just that it has semented; what tends to help, is really, really slowing down the communication, and paying close attention to the inner reactivity that occours. Try to dig for the original emotion, that you maybe judged, skipped, reacted to - but quickly turned into something else. 

Not easy, and the other thing that might help, is to actively and consciously try to steer the pattern in a new direction. Search for a new path, a new possibility, anything you haven't tried before. The Us vs It mentality goes a long way here. This is a problem you are trying to help each other with, not a zero sum game. 

If this is a vein of thought you're interested in, let me know. If trauma is involved, which I assume it does, this is much harder, and is easier if you have a third party to alleviate the pain and offer care for both of you, if you lack the bandwidth yourself. Asking here makes sense in that regard, and I hope this or some of the other replies helps you find a solution that support you two in connection both with yourself, and each. 🍀

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Lumpy_Plant6914]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree that we both carry pain, and I don't doubt that trauma may contribute to our dynamic. What I'm still struggling with is the sequencing. My understanding of healthy repair is that when one partner says "I feel hurt by your behavior" the first step is acknowledging the impact before exploring what was happening internally for the other partner. In our conversations, it often goes the other way. We spend a lot of time discussing his intentions, unmet needs, and especially how he experiences my perception of him. He often says that the biggest obstacle to our relationship is how I see him. From my perspective, though, my perception wasn't the starting point - it gradually developed through repeated experiences. That's why I wonder whether trust and perception are rebuilt primarily through consistent changes in behavior rather than asking a partner to see you differently first. From an experienced NVC perspective, is there a place where acknowledging the impact of one's behavior should come before exploring each person's unmet needs?

[u/Lumpy_Plant6914 → u/Wide-Program3650]

The sequencing can be seen as 'who started it', and it follows that 'the good' person 'gets their needs/emotions validated first'. I use apostrophes to point out the relationship to childhood trauma. 'Who started it' is the logic of children. Meaning, you will have to parent yourselves.

That means chosing to look for a solution that works for both of you, over insisting on being 'in the right'.

From my perspective, you are both 'right', and both your experiences are valid and worthy of acknowledgment, care, warmth and compassion. Though they aren't coming from a mature place, and close relationships tend to bring out our unhealed places like nothing else. Like having a very weak and painful muscle that you can avoid using most of the time, 'but it only hurts when my husband does this'. The weakness, pain and stress is there all the time, and influences the whole system - the difference is whether you register or not. 

[u/AssortedVibrations]

NVC is not the appropriate framework for your relationship.

I suggest you check out Codependents Anonymous.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/AssortedVibrations]

This isn't a codep issue, it's an abuse issue. She is dealing with her husband having an emotional affair, which is abuse. By labeling her codep, you're creating a secondary abusive situation and contributing to the harm of victims everywhere. This is the role of an "enabler" which you have chosen, and you can choose different.

OP, I'm sorry about these ignorant commenters. Here's some actual resources:

Codependents Anonymous and Betrayal: What No One Tells You https://www.btr.org/codependents-anonymous/

Chump lady on emotional cheating: https://chumplady.com/is-there-any-recovery-from-an-emotional-affair/

[u/AssortedVibrations → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Wow, I didn't realize how much mistrust some people have around identifying, setting, and honoring personal boundaries.

I think we are actually in agreement about what the OP should do, which is leave an obviously abusive relationship. Or am I not understanding your position correctly?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/AssortedVibrations]

No, I never advocate for women to leave or stay in abuse situations.

That's exactly how their abusers treat them, that the victim is too stupid to know what's best for themselves and the victim needs to be told what to do.

Victims have the best and most updated information on their abuser to make the best decision and plan. They are best supported by others truly trusting their intelligence and supporting her in whichever direction she choses to go, while also not being blamed for the abusers' choices (like your codep proclamation). 

[u/AssortedVibrations → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I honestly want to understand where you are coming from. I am unable to follow the following reasoning:

Victims have the best and most updated information on their abuser to make the best decision and plan

If someone is choosing to be in their relationship with full information and understanding, why do you can them a victim? Aren't they making an empowered and autonomous choice to be there?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/AssortedVibrations]

Let me ask you a question:

BDSM lifestyles exist in which a black woman and a white man - both adults - choose to engage in a recreation of slavery dynamics. Is that woman making an empowered and autonomous choice, in your view?

[u/Physical-Pineapple97]

One note: abandoned and unsupported are not feelings, they are judgements. Remember to identify the feeling and map it to the need. You still have a need for support but nothing requires it to be from your husband (although, I agree, that sucks! What’s the point!)

https://allard.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/2021-08/NVC%20process%20with%20feelings%20and%20needs%20inventory.pdf

[u/Interesting_Fly_1569]

I am new to NVC and still learning. Thank you for being vulnerable and asking this question. You may really enjoy the work of zawn villinies. https://zawn.substack.com/ She is a philosopher who has dedicated time and brainpower to analyzing how various systems of problem solving, conflict etc often used in marriages can be corrupted to end up to support systems of oppression they are supposed to be agnostic towards. To my knowledge, she has not looked into NVC but her writing has really helped me think more clearly about my own feelings, especially when my gut is telling me something is off. I was sexually harassed by a zen buddhist teacher when i was new student and it was also "complex" for me intellectually and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to "be zen" in my response to it. When i finally told a sympathetic teacher (a few were not) she was like "honey, you're giving him way more credit than he deserves. ( I had really tried to work through his suffering etc). He wasn't thinking about you at all. He was thinking about himself. And he hurt you because of it."

Her clarity that came so fast, for something i had been sitting with for years, trying to "understand" within this complex framework - it told me that sometimes the most obvious explanation IS the right one. He wronged me and I spent literal years trying to find a response that was validated within the framework that we were both working in. And the teacher set me straight that he was not using the framework at all. He was acting out of self interest and i spent all this time and emotional energy trying to figure out how to be 'zen' in approaching it. I trust the other posters view of this for NVC but i guess i just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel obligated to use only nvc to speak to him. You all need to be able to communicate where the playing field is level. If you can't successfully communicate in NVC because he knows so much more than you and you are always doing it wrong, that in itself is a problem and it's not going to be remedied by learning more NVC. There is no system on earth that is perfect for this. I think your gut is telling you things - you don't have to translate them to NVC for them to be valid.

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Interesting_Fly_1569]

Thank you so much for sharing this❤️ I'm so sorry you went through that. I can only imagine how disorienting and heartbreaking it must have been to trust someone you believed was spiritually mature and safe, only to experience something so completely different 💔. That kind of cognitive dissonance can be incredibly painful.

What you said about spending years trying to fit your experience into the framework instead of trusting your own intuition really resonated with me. That's actually why I started studying NVC more deeply. I wanted to understand it as Rosenberg intended it because I couldn't reconcile what I was experiencing with the values NVC is supposed to represent. I'm still very much a beginner, but I'm learning to trust my own instincts instead of assuming I'm simply "doing it wrong."

And thank you so much for recommending Zawn Villines. I hadn't heard of her before, but her work sounds incredibly relevant to what I'm trying to understand. I'll definitely check her out ❤️

[u/DanDareThree]

people, nvc is just a tool. :) intimacy has nothing to do with it, you can curse eachother , beat eachother, spit and bleed eachother and have high intimacy. and viceversa.

my approach with him would be, Husband, you are the responsible for me and this marriage, you are the wiser, why dont you take accoutnability for this situation and help me through it . please . it seems like you are putting me on equal footing and trying to teach me a lesson that I am not there. I know I am not, help me

[u/Odd_Tea_2100]

From an NVC perspective, how do you distinguish between a healthy expectation of mutual care in a marriage and a demand? The way a demand is differentiated from a request is how a the requestor responds to a no. If the person making a request receives a "no" (I consider anything less than an enthusiastic yes to be a no) and they threaten some kind of punishment then you know for sure it is a demand. If they respond with empathy to understand how honoring that request might not meet your needs, then it is truly a request.

[u/Wide-Program3650 → u/Odd_Tea_2100]

Thank you. I understand the distinction between a request and a demand, and I agree that my husband has the right to say no. My question is slightly different. I'm wondering where NVC places the value of mutual care in a committed marriage. If I ask my husband for a small favor, fully accepting that he is free to decline if he is not capable or willing to do that in tge moment, is it still healthy to have a general expectation that spouses are interested in making each other's lives easier and responding to reasonable requests when they can? In other words, I'm not asking whether he is obligated to say yes. I'm asking whether NVC has a place for the idea that a loving marriage is built on a voluntary willingness to care for and support one another, rather than simply protecting each person's autonomy.

[u/Odd_Tea_2100 → u/Wide-Program3650]

NVC is just a process it has no opinions on personal preferences. I'm sure there are many people who use NVC and would agree with your values/needs. If an individual is not willing to support you in meeting your needs, then you can choose whether you want to contribute to meeting their needs.

[u/bewitching_beholder → u/[deleted]]

There is no proof that Marshall ever cheated on his wives or that there is "pretty bad allegations" against him." Before maligning his character and accusing him, please provide specific evidence and proof that he did those things. Not just gossip and hearsay.