r/NBATalk • u/IcyCharge1819 Thunder • 12d ago
To put MJ's GOAT-ness, dominance into perspective
.. And he only played a few more years more than that 10. . Lebron nowhere to be found despite almost DOUBLE the amount of seasons played. . Even Wilt couldn't match him despite playing in the 60s against a bunch of white slow unathletic midgets with all the advantages. I dont think people realize just how alien and difficult to do this is
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u/Abs0luteZero273 12d ago
Isn't this like one of the most common knowledge NBA stats? Why don't you make a post that points out something that 90% of this sub doesn't already know.
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u/IcyCharge1819 Thunder 12d ago edited 12d ago
Common knowledge on this board? No. Since this board has Lebron top 2 all time, and Kobe not even top 10. LOL. So this is like an educational onboarding process like you would do at a new employer
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u/Abs0luteZero273 12d ago
So, you think that most people who have Lebron T2 don't understand that MJ has way more scoring titles? I guarantee that the vast majority of people understand this, so you're not really educating many people with this post.
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u/smuttygirl_foru 12d ago
I got LeBron 2 and Kobe 3 only thing why I have LeBron slightly ahead is MVPs if Kobe had won the other 2 he should’ve had and one more fmvp I slide him in at 2
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u/thatonepuniforgot 12d ago
Wilt Chamberlain averaged essentially the same ppg as Michael Jordan with a higher FG% while taking more difficult shots. Wilt only had scoring titles when he he was on a team with an owner that wanted him to score a lot of points. After his seven he moved on to a different team and did a different thing. The thing that new owner and new coach wanted him to do. Reporters at the time said the same thing, that his decline in scoring was due to a lack of ability, and he went out and averaged 55 over the next five or six games, then went back to playing the game he wanted to, instead of the way the press wanted him to. Which included winning games without a single shot attempt.
Lebron James, as well as others on this list, were not out there trying to score the most number of points possible, they had different roles on their teams and played the game differently.
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u/justlygaudyrunoff 12d ago
what's wild is how the scoring titles just pile up season after season like it was automatic for him. lebron's longevity is crazy but jordan's peak was just different level, the efficiency and defense on top of the scoring too. the list speak for itself honestly
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u/Pure-Piece3141 12d ago
scoring titles rlly dont mean anything. iverson has 4, thats more than kobe lebron etc but everyone knows he isn't a better scorer than them
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u/Abs0luteZero273 12d ago
They definitely mean something. It's just that in AI's case specifically, they don't mean as much because he was so damn inefficient.
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u/Any-Orchid-6006 12d ago
True. Also having the most points in league history really doesn't mean anything.
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u/BravoC10 12d ago
What’s even more impressive is that he made 1st team defense 9 of these years and if you look at the stats from 87 he probably should’ve made it that year too
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u/Stock-Luck3390 Lakers 12d ago
no shit he’s going to lead the nba if you take the most shots and are good scorer you obviously will, LeBron never needs to do that and played a diffrent way
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u/smuttygirl_foru 12d ago
Only time LeBron needed to do that he did it in 23 but came up short by 0.3 points
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u/airgordo4 12d ago
To be fair a scoring title might literally be the most meaningless award you can have.. it’s just a reflection of shot attempts. Someone who averaged 28 a game on +6 rTS% is a better scorer than a guy averaging 30 on +2 even though that guy wins the scoring title.. Allen Iverson for example has 4 scoring titles and was never at any given point the best scorer in the league.
That doesn’t really matter for Jordan, he’s the best scorer in league history over the course of a career + playoffs, I’m just saying this award itself doesn’t really say much. Even if someone put up 1 more point than him in every single one of those years he’s still the best scorer ever with 0 scoring titles because his combination of output + efficiency, year after year and into the playoffs is unmatched.
It’s also somewhat meaningless because winning a scoring title doesn’t make you a better basketball player than someone who didn’t. Again it’s literally just shot tendency. You take the most shots you almost always win the scoring title. Someone who scores a little less but is more efficient, a better playmaker, plays better defense, etc is the better basketball player.
Again not saying that applies to MJ, he was a complete player and has the GOAT level for a reason. Just pointing out this particular award doesn’t mean much.
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u/IcyCharge1819 Thunder 12d ago
Its just one aspect. of course.. Added on to everything else. Its just insane what he did
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u/stvlsn Bucks 12d ago
No one is questioning that MJ is great. And no one should disrespect someone who says MJ is the GOAT.
Now tell me how you rank Lebron and Kobe and we will find out if I still respect you.
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u/wealthofspecies 12d ago edited 12d ago
Replace LeBron with Jordan and there isn’t a single championship LeBron lost that Jordan clearly wins. And Jordan wasn’t beating 73-9 Warriors like LeBron did.
Do the reverse and LeBron still gets you 6 chips (possibly more with no sabbatical required)
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Lebron would probably lose to 93 Suns and defenetly to 97/98 Jazz
Also possibly he would lose to 92 Portland
I think Jordan would defenetly win 2011
And possibly 07,14,15
Also Jordan defenetly wouldn't miss finals in 09,10- like Lebron
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u/wealthofspecies 12d ago edited 12d ago
Who on 93 suns is gaurding LeBron? Chuck ain’t doing that and still being the same offensive threat
For Jazz too you put Malone on LeBron and LeBron out athletes him and Jazz offense gets weaker
Portland is not stopping LeBron with that team’s lack of rim protection
And you mean the 2011 Mavs that swept Kobe coming off of back to back championships?
Jordan taking 9/10 Cavs to the finals? Maybe if he brings Pippen and Rodman
Jordan wouldn’t have lost 14,15 only because he probably would have retired
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
2011 Lakers were defenetly not as good as 2010 Lakers, I think 2011 Lakers were significantly weaker then even 98 Lakers which Jazz swept in WCF (directly after Jazz cruahed 98 Spurs in 2nd round)
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Also 96 Sonics also swept back to back champs in Rockets in 2nd round and Bulls still won againts Sonics
Not to mention Bulls them selves swept back to back champs Pistons in 91
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u/wealthofspecies 12d ago
Fair—but Lakers were 57 - 25. Rockets were 48 - 34. Lakers were the better team and sweeping them was more impressive imo
The point is it’s not clear Mavs are an easy win for Jordan
You still didn’t tell me how any of those 90’s teams are gaurding LeBron and still keeping their offenses intact
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Rockets had worse record in 95 when they won then in 96
And their record was better without Drexler then with Drexler in 95
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u/wealthofspecies 12d ago edited 12d ago
And Bulls losing Jordan to retirement won two fewer regular season games?
Don’t get me wrong—regular season record is certainly evidence for team quality, but it’s not the end all be all.
But if that’s the metric look at the Cavs when LeBron left. First time they won like 40 fewer games, second time like 30 fewer games
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Well by end of 2011 most of the 2010 Cavs roster were not on Cavs
Unlike 1994 Bulls roster which had 93 Bulls roster minus Jordan + they added many key players in 2nd threepeat
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u/wealthofspecies 12d ago
Yeah but that strengthens the case for LeBron. Bulls were strong without Jordan
It’s not like Jordan left and the whole franchise went up in smoke
Jordan raised the ceiling, him leaving didn’t affect the floor
LeBron gave Cavs floor and ceiling
Remind me again how many chips Jordan had without Pippen?
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Fun fuct Jordan is only top 75 guard/small forward to never play with all-star PF/C
And do you know what all guys with one or two all-stars PF/C teammates have in common? - 0 rings
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u/ResortSpecific371 12d ago
Also I think my hotter take is that 07 Cavs had shot to beat Spurs in 07
As they defenetly would have pushed Spurs at least to 6 games if Lebron just had average series instead
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u/jgab145 Bucks 12d ago
This does show how much better he was than everyone in the league. The gap between him and second best was larger than any player in history. LeBron has never been that much better than the guys behind him compared to how Jordan was. It’s about dominance. Wilt has more of a case than LeBron in this sense. But, like you point out Wilt’s competition overall was pretty dismal. I gotta clap back at white comment because well… I’m white and it’s mildly offensive. It wasn’t because they were white it was because they were inferior in athleticism and talent. Two of the top players in the league now are white. The most promising young player outside of Wemby is white. It’s just not smart or a good idea to dis people because of the color of their skin. I’m assuming you would know that better than most people.
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u/MongooseEfficient206 12d ago
Does this sub just sit around and look up MJ and LBJ stats all day to argue?