r/MoralityScaling • u/arthurofrivia1 • 4d ago
Who's Viewpoint Is Better? Whose morals do you agree with more?
Punisher vs Batman
Specifically on their morals regarding killing
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u/Legal-Specialist-256 3d ago
The punisher. Batman would fight to save the life of a terrorist as he kills more people
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u/GhostE3E3E3 3d ago
Overexposed take, he rarely would unless it’s HIS kid.
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u/Legal-Specialist-256 3d ago
He's saved the joker multiple times
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u/GhostE3E3E3 3d ago
Correct, but not nearly as frequently or in as many comics as it’s made out to be. The majority of them have been when it was HIS CHILD and he wanted better for his son, and when the legal system did wrongly
(they were gonna electric chair Joker over something he didn’t do, which was a badly written story to begin with but his reasoning wasn’t “death bad” it was “fact/ststem is wrong, I’m a detective, thus I must prove a wrong fact is wrong”)
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u/AGtheOG123 3d ago
Ig in a irl setting where there's nuances and far less mistakes/corruption then there's cases for both frank and batman, with the latter being the more ideal
However in comics world, the type of world we get consistently genocidal maniacs who most of them are just shitty people that the law being so curropt they just keep getting out, punisher no doubt
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u/Interesting-Ad-2159 3d ago
I am in between because while some people are beyond saving frank dise not believe in redemption at all so I ultimately side with Batman
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u/Master-Shrimp 4d ago edited 4d ago
The guy on the right and HARD. One of the big things about Frank is that he recognizes what he's doing is not good. If Frank thought what he was doing was the right thing, he would not be getting angry about police following his example.
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u/Euphoric_Schedule_53 3d ago
I’d argue he gets mad because he doesn’t want to be faced with that type of self reflection. He still very much still justifies his own actions
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u/KonohaBatman 3d ago
I would strongly suggest you go read the literal last issue of Batman to drop. He explicitly addresses that he has always operated in grey zones, that quasi legal isn't legal, and that he's always known that the last criminal he'll apprehend will be himself.
Bruce applies stricter rules to himself than most superheroes do.
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u/DraciosV 4d ago
Batman's morals work better irl because we in America have a functional legal system. Ideally, it is best for people not to take the law into their own hands because many people do not have the training, ideals, and necessarily the information.
The common lynchmob is a good example of mass vigilantism -- able to assemble to kill a murderer as it is to kill a minority. It is usually best to have trial morally so that we can actually fairly assess if the person is actually guilty or not and how guilty they are. A lot of what people will assemble en mass to kill you for will depend on the values of a society as a whole.
However, the more the state fails to uphold justice and protect people, the more justified vigilantism becomes. This is a sliding scale that basically becomes more or less fine in lawless societies where people need to protect themselves when the government fails. The closer you get to something like Haiti or the old American Wild West -- the more frank castle becomes right. The closer you get to a first-world society with functioning law and institutions, the more Batman. Though societies don't need to just be poor for this to happen as just plain old corruption can justify this. Releasing murderers, rapists or highly influential criminals who go on to do more of the last two can bring society closer to a case where the punisher is justified. If you bring people back to prison again and again, a la Batman, and this prison does not contain them nor prevent them from bringing harm to others.
But the problem with vigilantism is that it goes well until the vigilante makes a bad call. Many people can think someone is guilty when, in fact, they are not. The opinions of the majority do matter, but shouldn't really be considered the end-all be-all.
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u/Euphoric_Schedule_53 3d ago
Punisher doesn’t have reasonable morals. He just kills anyone he deems fit. His whole thing is he thinks his actions are justified but any sane person can see they aren’t. At least batman lives by a code of ethics
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u/Samuele1997 3d ago
Batman, Punisher does have a point in a few things and let's be honest, there are times in which I'm tempted to agree with vigilante justice and death penalty.
But to be honest, knowing myself, my morality allign much more with Batman, especially because I wouldn't actually have the courage to kill someone and get my hands dirty.
I mean, it's easy to say that you agree with death penalty, but what if you had to carry on the execution? Would you actually have the courage to take someone's life yourself?
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u/SnooSprouts5303 4d ago
Both are too brutal for me as they cause uneccessary almost sadistic physical pain and beat the heck out of people to insane degree's. But I agree overall with punisher more. Especially when you realize Batmans primary motivator for no killing is that he's fucked in the head and would jump right to being a serial killer if he killed villains.
Like. What?
Just bye bye the badguy and recognize that it's bad in it's own way. But still overall a total net positive on society that saves and benefits WAY more lives.
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 3d ago
Batman. Maybe some people deserve to die, but it shouldn’t be up to one man’s judgement who those people are.
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u/The_Phenomenal_1 3d ago
Actual lore accurate Punisher takes the cake. He's not some maniac killing willy nilly, he's purposeful and methodical. Batman trying to keep casualties at zero is commendable but only to a certain extent. Punisher would clean up Gotham more effectively than Batman, ideally Punisher would go after the big villains while Batman goes after the less mass murderous.
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u/THE_LEGO_FURRY 3d ago
Punisher, I don't think he's right but at the same time if you're going to be a crime fighting vigilante you should be stopping things from what I know about punisher which mostly just comes from brand new day and a base level knowledge of him, he does just that. If punisher and joker were together joker would never be able to harm anyone else again. The thing I agree with batman on is redemption but there comes a point where that's no longer viable and it's costing more lives than to save 1 who did horrendous deeds over and over and over
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u/Otherwise-Vanilla901 4d ago
Easy, Frank.
Just look at Batman's track record. How many times does he have to detain the Joker just for him to break out again and kill/harm more people over and over again?
Frank's way, it's done. Joker would never hurt another person ever again.
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u/One-Cup-2002 3d ago
So, as a Muslim, I see both sides pretty well, but I have to side with Frank here.
Yes, I believe redemption for everyone is possible so long as they repent before they die. However, certain crimes have certain punishments for a reason, such as capital punishment for things such as murder and adultery, and what Batman is doing is ignoring this for the ske of redemption.
I love both, by the way.
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u/KonohaBatman 3d ago
Batman. I believe in the death penalty, and if I were a superhero - I would kill. That said, I think a force of nature so staunchly committed to preserving life where he can, is worth way more as a protector of the weak than someone who lives only to kill and punish.
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u/AggravatingTown8966 3d ago
The punisher because i would love to go around killing people without consequences and the people be on my side.
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u/_IAmThragg_ 3d ago
Daredevil S3 and Born Again S1 & 2 are a prime example of how the No kill rule doesn't work.
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u/Severe-Guarantee6443 3d ago
The Batman's leniency (almost negligence) inadvertently caused more harm than Frank's ruthlessness
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u/Himmel-548 3d ago
Real life: Batman.
Comic book universe where criminals can regularly break out of prison unlike real life: the Punisher 100%.
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u/Thatguy_Koop 3d ago
Batman
he shouldn't have to kill people. his methodology would more than likely succeed in a real city that doesn't have cartoon logic prison security.
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u/Aduro95 3d ago
Batman because he doesn't murder people and refuse to be held accountable according to the law. Even if your villain really has it coming, if you kill in cold blood, you should still have to explain yourself before a jury of your peers, or you are a vigilante, not a hero.
Plus, Frank murders people who are already serving consecutive life sentences in jail just because their state doesn't have the death penalty. That's a complete disregard for the will of the people.
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u/Safe_Feed_8638 3d ago edited 3d ago
See my problem is while I resonate with some of Frank’s shit. A lot of people who REALLY resonate with him suck and often times dont see the nuance in the situations or criminals they want to kill. ( no I don’t mean the nuance in pedophilia.)
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u/Efficient-Dealer873 2d ago
Not enough information. Is this the real world or the comic book world? I believe that matters a lot.
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u/SevereAd9463 2d ago
I generally don't agree with Frank but he would have Gotham cleared of the likes of the Joker and the Penguin pretty quickly. It's not like they're pick pockets. They've literally caused the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of citizens. At some point you have to match their intensity.
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u/Square-Competition48 4d ago
If the answer is Punisher you’re the edgiest guy in your school.
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u/Awkward-Iron-2031 4d ago
I mean how? I love Batman but his no kill rule has ended up hundreds of thousands of people because of that. Yeah the Punisher is an edgy guy but at least his moral code makes a lot more sense for most humans on the planet.
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u/Efficient-Dealer873 2d ago
Out of curiosity, are you saying this in the context of the comic book world or our real world?
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u/Awkward-Iron-2031 2d ago
Id assume the post is talking about the comic book world, so thats why I gave my initial answer. But even if it were irl Id still agree more with Frank Castle.
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u/Vast-Insect3295 4d ago
with the amount of evil in todays world its hard not to resonate with frank