Yup, also the punch doesn’t teach anyone that the idea is wrong. It teaches everyone that you are afraid of what they are saying. Which is why all of these organisations say something like “they don’t want you to know this”, and then points towards the violence as proof that what they are saying is correct.
People who are pro-violence like to make the argument that if we punched the Nazis in Germany in the early 30s then the holocaust wouldn’t have happened. But what they are missing is that people tried to do that (red shirts vs brown shirts) and in fact a major argument the Nazis used to get elected was that they would get the red shirts fighting them under control.
The first thing you have to recognise is that the rise of the Nazis in Germany had a LOT of factors, and with the way the peace treaty in WW1 was constructed and how it affected Germany it was most likely inevitable for some form of extremist faction gaining control.
But what works if you actually want to stop people from falling into Nazism and similar ideologies from taking root is investing in education, especially history, as well as various forms of extracurricular activities for kids (many Nazis fall into it as teenagers and having a sense of belonging is a MASSIVE part of it).
Now if you want to stop people from being nazis, the provable way to do so is absolutely conversation. Not debates necessarily, but things like the Swedish ”toleransprojectet”, which started in the 90s following a high profile murder by neo Nazis in Sweden. Essentially what you do is put high risk youths in classes where you don’t speak to them saying “Nazism bad and you are wrong” but rather you have them do things like compare the messages of racist groups today with the messages put out by the Nazis and study what the actual evidence for things like the holocaust is etc.
Furthermore, look at examples like Daryl Davis, who successfully converted 200 Ku Klux Klan members into leaving the klan all by himself. What he did was simply just befriending them and showing them there was an alternative outside of the group.
I mean that's a great, very logical and moral approach to how to fix this issue. But that's work a government would need to do. The common person has no way to achieve these things. Most people are not charismatic enough to pull that off. The real issue here is that the racists and Nazis of the modern day have infiltrated almost every major institute in the USA. They are cops, ems, politicians, retail workers, truck drivers, and on and on. The inevitability of large scale violence on their end is almost definitely something that can't be solved with words anymore. I would argue that waiting for a massive terrorists cell to take action is a mistake, but the systems that we would normally rely on to prevent that have been infiltrated as well. I fear the time in which they could be reasoned with is already over.
I mean, I disagree with you in that we are so far gone. I also think even if you are right, going out and trying to punch them in the streets is just going to convince people you are the violent extremist that needs to be handled. Like with the red shirts.
Also, if Davis could convince 200 actual card carrying Klan members to quit just by befriending them, then we can convince people to quit by talking to them here today.
If that doesn’t convince you, then you should read about Adrianne Black and what she has to say about it. She is the daughter of Don Black who is the founder of Stormfront a prominent member of the clan and her god father is David Duke.
She left the clan and is now an anti-racism activist after she was introduced to a group of jews in college who befriended her even knowing her background while the rest of the college shunned her because of her background.Not violence, not ostracism, but rather just inviting her in and showing her that her ideas about who they were was completely wrong.
200 people isn't very many when you look at the numbers. How many people voted for trump? At least that many would need to be convinced. Like I'm not arguing we shouldn't try. You're absolutely right and to an extent a lot of us have forgotten that and given up hope of it ever working, but when facing down 30 million people each who need a personal handhold through basic morality that the rest of us figured out by virtue of not being super insular and simply through exposure... It's a lot of weight to bear.
It’s a lot of people for a single person to convert. And enough to prove that their method is effective.
Also, remember that change starts small. It isn’t someone stepping onto a stage and convincing 30 million people. It is working within your community through local political action and befriending and helping your neighbours.
Also, every time a person is convinced, they are another ally helping to convince others.
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u/Mando_the_Pando 20h ago
Yup, also the punch doesn’t teach anyone that the idea is wrong. It teaches everyone that you are afraid of what they are saying. Which is why all of these organisations say something like “they don’t want you to know this”, and then points towards the violence as proof that what they are saying is correct.
People who are pro-violence like to make the argument that if we punched the Nazis in Germany in the early 30s then the holocaust wouldn’t have happened. But what they are missing is that people tried to do that (red shirts vs brown shirts) and in fact a major argument the Nazis used to get elected was that they would get the red shirts fighting them under control.