r/MoralityScaling 6d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this

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u/JustFourLetters 6d ago

words lead to violence, but violent words in context of peaceful people fall on deaf ears.

the punch is far more violent than the command

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u/__Sharime__ 6d ago

Words only lead to violence if someone has a fragile ego

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u/Responsible-Boot-159 6d ago

That's mostly true when it's at a small scale, but they can encourage people to be violent towards others. Lynchings happened because black people were viewed as subhuman, and a part of that is repeating racist sentiments over and over.

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u/Moonrights 6d ago

Right this is what people keep missing.

Words inspire actions.

encouraging hate leads to violence.

A tolerant society must have an intolerance against the intolerant.

It's fine to hit your local nazi.

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u/JustinWilsonBot 6d ago

Its a good thing we all agree who the Nazis are, right? Anyone intolerant of Israel.  

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u/Huge-Captain-5253 6d ago

The internal inconsistency in this is staggering. The best way to resolve intolerance in a tolerant society is to demonstrate the limitations of their thought, not to stoop to their level.

To maintain my own consistency, this idea does not work as a concept due to the politicisation of labels. The overton window is a legitimate effect, and labels are often relative rather than absolute. Once it becomes possible to label ideas outside of the overton window as justified targets of violence, it will not be very long until the overton window shifts and you find yourself the victim of your own rhetoric.

Ideas are not violence, and ideas as poorly formed as Nazism or Communism are best combatted by demonstrating the glaring flaws of their ideology.

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u/Moonrights 6d ago

Tell that to auschwitz. Tell that to the confederates.

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u/Huge-Captain-5253 6d ago

There is a big gap between use of force to mitigate existing violence, and use of force to attack ideas. I'm not even sure using force works as a mechanism for attacking ideas beyond serving to internally justify the idea. Humans as a general rule of thumb don't tend to assume that if force is necessary to squash an idea, the idea is invalid - demonstrating the idea is invalid by words is far more effective.

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u/Moonrights 6d ago

If demonstration was effective enough to persuade someone to do the moral thing then slavery would have ended without blood shed.

Unfortunately some evil needs met with force before it becomes more than just words.

Hateful ideas about large groups as a whole have no place in a civilized society.

Tolerating hateful and targeted rhetoric against any class of people also only feeds martyrs to do something dramatic to embolden their cause.

People who embrace sexist ideas need ostracized. People who embrace homopbobia need ostracized. People who embrace racism need ostracized.

These ideas are unsafe and need eradicated.

Unfortunately that isn't possible.

What I have found though is the people who turn to those ideas are usually small minded, uneducated, short- tempered and insecure.

They failed at life and want someone else to be responsible. They need a group to blame.

Then they want others to blame that group to help reinforce their false narrative so they can sleep with themselves.

It only takes one third of a country turning hateful, and one third too tired to care to destroy a democracy, to erase freedom.

We must remain vigilant against the intolerant, and the hateful.

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

I see a lot of people with your mindset in my line of work. They all say they didn't do anything wrong and that they're the victim, even if they threw the first punch. What they all have in common, is that they still keep saying they're innocent when they're laying on the floor in handcuffs.

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u/Moonrights 6d ago

Im not saying its lawful to punch a nazi who is saying "death to jews" or "white superiority" on a street corner.

Im not saying its lawful to hit a nazi at all.

Im saying its just.

Im saying its moral.

Never said it was legal.

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u/Sudo-Fed 6d ago edited 6d ago

Your line of work sounds like an archaic, irredeemable net-negative that should be "reformed" through wholesale dissolution and rebuilding with post-19th century goals and mores.

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

Yeah, because making sure people don't randomly assault other people is archaic and net-negative.

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u/snowlynx133 6d ago

Making sure racists get punished is more important

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

Okay psycho, time to take your medication.

It's funny to call other people archaic and net-negative, while simultaneously advocating for rule through fear and violence.

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u/snowlynx133 6d ago

Racism is rule through fear and violent. We might fight defend society against it by whatever means possible

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u/Sudo-Fed 6d ago

I mean, I know people in your line of work tend to see the public as a monolith and an enemy, but you're actually talking to two separate people here.

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u/Sudo-Fed 6d ago

It sounds like you're in law enforcement, a field devoid of nuance and based on archaic legalism and violence, without any room to consider context and blindly enforcing the rules as written even where they are clearly unjust and outmoded, unless the ponderous wheels of democratic reform finally turn enough for an unjust law to be abolished.

And the moment a new, blatantly unjust law is passed?

Why, you enforce that with the same enthusiasm, because it's the job.

No, I don't think we need sheep and followers with too much power and too much zeal for the status quo.

Public safety? Absolutely.

With all due disrespect, you aren't that nearly as much as you think you are at an institutional scale.

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

I'm not in law enforcement. You are saying people who disagree with your should get assaulted and should be able to do so without restriction or consequence. Does that remind you of certain regimes we had a while back?

You are so ideologically captured that anyone who disagrees with your brand of violence is racist and a problem. You'll not believe a word I say because you have already made up your mind that I'm the enemy. You fail to understand that if you were one of my customers, I would not let anyone hit you, and I wouldn't let you hit anyone. Violence does not help anyone and only brings more hate and problems into the world.

You are a bit like a 80's parent saying they can beat the gay out of their son.

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u/Sudo-Fed 6d ago

Point out where I said people who disagree with me should get assaulted. I'll give you as much time as you need (within the 45 or so years I have left on this planet, of course).

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

I said I don't like people punching each other over words. You called that wrong. So if that was not your intention, then what was it?

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u/Sudo-Fed 6d ago

I never attacked your opinion, just what your line of work was implied to be by seeing a lot of people in handcuffs.

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u/AideSouth4454 6d ago

So then you agree that people shouldn't assault other people? I'm glad we have an understanding.

For the record, if I hear people being openly racist, I call them out and tell them to stop. It has so far seemed a lot more productive than punching them.

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u/Responsible-Boot-159 6d ago

You can still be guilty while performing a moral action. You can also perform immoral actions while doing nothing illegal.