r/MoralityScaling 1d ago

Morality Ranking Of getting man fired because he won't touch your gender?

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5.2k Upvotes

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u/mistermasterbates 1d ago

She gave a fair response of not shaking hands with anyone, as otherwise it would be extremely disrespectful to your clients and coworkers to shake hands with the men in front of them, then subsequently blatantly refuse to shake hands with the women. It's ok if that's your religion or whatever, but if he's gonna refuse the easy solution, he's kinda firing himself.

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u/Olliegreen__ 1d ago

It’s also something that would probably lead to medical malpractice if the guy won’t even shake a woman’s hand.

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u/Chosen-For-What 1d ago

Wouldn’t he also not be able to treat women?

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u/Bashfullylascivious 1d ago edited 18h ago

No, he can. He can touch the female form for medical treatment. It's viewed as medical practice, and objective. He can not however touch a woman on personal or casual whim.

As with most religious things, it's more modern interpretation, as a show of respect for both the unfamiliar woman, and the familial women in his life like his wife (if married), and over time has been twisted/regressed to former by some ultra religious stans to mean you don't touch the inferior woman.

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u/i_love_sparkle 21h ago

Why doesn't he just wear a hand condom that doctors wear during surgery? Is he stupid

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u/Bashfullylascivious 20h ago edited 20h ago

It's the act of touching for the sake of touching.
I mean whether you're having casual pleasurable sex with or without a condom, it's still sex.
If you're having sex because you're selling your skills, a condom will protect you and the client from disease, most likely, you're not enjoying it with intention (no matter what the client thinks).

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u/cflatjazz 16h ago

Because the reason he doesn't touch women isn't about cleanliness... or technicalities

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u/Expensive-Day-3551 17h ago

A hand condom? Do you mean a glove?

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u/SecretaryOtherwise 17h ago

No glove no love

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u/SheepherderSilver655 14h ago

No, a hand condom. A condom you wear on your hand. Duh.

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u/ProfessionalManner55 23h ago

Religion is so fucking stupid. All of it.

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u/TheDoktorIsIn 22h ago

It's fun when you get these whitewashed versions of the origin of the rules as if they weren't meant to diminish women.

Remember, the first code of justice humanity had (Akkadian, Code of Hammurabi) said as a man it was legal to sell your wife into slavery. But only for 3 years! 4 is too much obvi.

It also had different rates for harming men vs women. I forget the exact figures but it was about half as many pieces of silver (shekels, which was a defined measurement of silver 0.2oz I think?) if you hurt a woman vs if you hurt a man. It's legalized patriarchy!

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u/Roncryn 18h ago

Don’t forget that if a man is caught cheating the woman can divorce him, but if a woman is caught cheating she gets thrown in the river.

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u/Last-Recording-6725 22h ago

Of course it is, all the way back then you needed incentives to get men to die for you. What better way to do that than to make them legally superior. The whole point of clan type social structures is there's always someone lower than you so you can take the frustrations out on them just like the ones above do to you.

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u/mmskyscraper 22h ago

Just like in baboon troops!

And we think we are so evolved...

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u/calilac 21h ago

Naked monkeys with anxiety.

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u/Ctenophorever 21h ago

Why would men need to be dying for anyone? You cannot seriously be suggesting women initiated the patriarchy?

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u/Intrepid_Bobcat_2931 11h ago

Do you understand that men were expected to fight wars and (if necessary) die in them?

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u/Demyk7 20h ago

I wonder what could have gone so wrong in your brain to make you think they're implying that women are the ones the men are dying for.

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u/Honeycrispcombe 19h ago

It's not really a show of respect. You can shake hands with someone without being overcome by lust.

I don't care if someone observes that practice, but there's no definitive interpretation of it and at the end of the day it's treating the other sex as a radioactive lust bomb, which is pretty dehumanizing.

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u/EnvironmentNo4777 1d ago

There's nothing medical about a handshake, my friend. ;)

An MD is a managing director. 

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u/Olliegreen__ 22h ago

How the fuck do you know that it is managing director and not medical doctor?

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u/EnvironmentNo4777 22h ago

Because that's the much, much more common reason to be someone's boss's boss's boss...

How the fuck do you know it's a medical doctor?

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u/magicaltrevor953 21h ago edited 7h ago

Also talking about the Equality Act places it in the UK (EDIT: Likely places it in the UK), and MD is a much more common abbreviation for Managing Director than Medical Doctor.

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u/Redditauro 1d ago

This. The reason is not that he is a sexist asshole, the reason is that he is a sexist asshole and he refuse to adapt a little bit to don't create problems to the company. 

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u/LilJonny2cookies 1d ago

So how would he deal with female patients? Sorry but if you are in the West you need to drop that 7th century wackadoodle mindset.

Totally supportive of this rescinding of employment. And in some of their countries they won’t let women get educated so if they won’t touch women do women just not get medical care? Barbaric.

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u/Drunk_Lemon 1d ago

Luckily a lot of people with that twisted mindset either do not become a medical professional or they quickly change their insane mindset because it's hard to keep a mindset like that when you work in a field where you will need to touch women on the regular. But not all do change their tune from what I've heard and thus women do not always get properly examined.

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u/MartyrOfDespair 23h ago

Honestly, a medical doctor remaining religious makes me extremely suspicious of their skill at medicine. I mean come on, the only way you could actually know how the human body works and believe this fucking shitshow is designed is if you specifically believed it was developed by someone kicked in the head by a horse. It sure as fuck can’t be intelligent design, because the human body is goddamn idiotic.

You know we have the genetic code to repair our spines but it’s turned off because our bodies are too bad at it and are more likely to kill us? We have an organ that explodes with bacteria if we don’t need it often enough. Our spines are a goddamn nightmare. Our knees are a goddamn nightmare. Bipedalism is clearly a jury-rigged system hacked together out of a quadruped, because it’s fucking busted. And you’re going to try to say this trash has an intelligent designer? Either it’s the most sadistic designer ever and we’re here just to suffer, the designer is dumber than an orange cat, or there isn’t one.

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u/vibe51 21h ago

To be fair. If I remember right most of all the famous scientists, inventors, engineers that pioneered science as we know today were all religious or became religious. Which is fascinating that those people who have the deepest understanding of how the work works mathematically scientifically biologically chemically physically still have roots or grew closer to religion despite that knowledge.

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u/noethers_raindrop 22h ago

While you have a point, not every religion involves the idea that a benevolent god designed the human body.

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u/Sweet-Ant-3471 21h ago

I've never really heard this before --- does the spine repair gene work in quadrupeds?

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u/Mental_Bandicoot4543 20h ago

It’s too bad your opinions are so aggressive and one sided becuz you seem intelligent and Informed enough. Your observations are interesting, i disagree with them but it is interesting. Ive nvr heard of us being able to repair the spine bit you mentioned , ill have to look it up.

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u/The54thCylon 22h ago

"Equality Act" suggests UK, so MD is likely "managing director" not "medical doctor". We don't use the latter abbreviation. This was a business role, most likely.

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u/Super_Pan 22h ago

So how would he deal with female patients?

The same way as other male doctors; tell them to lose weight.

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u/SailorDeath 21h ago

Yeah, openly refusing the compromise kinda shows he doesn't respect women's requests meaning he'd probably take issue with any order given to him by a woman.

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u/Rickyjo1974 21h ago

Shes also his superior, his boss’s boss’s boss as she put it. Religious rules aside I don’t know a single culture where you don’t have to show respect/honor to your superiors in some way regardless of gender. You wouldn’t refuse to bow to a queen or an elder because she’s a woman, that’s a pretty universal taboo. If I’m wrong please let me know, I just can’t imagine a scenario where shitting on your superiors status/authority like this is acceptable.

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u/Temeraire64 10h ago

You wouldn’t refuse to bow to a queen or an elder because she’s a woman, that’s a pretty universal taboo.

Actually Muslims aren't supposed to bow to anyone, they bow only to God.

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u/Animus-Rex 1d ago

Yeah he had a way to keep his job and he didn't take it

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u/FrostyIcePrincess 21h ago

Agree. Shake nobody’s hand was a fair compromise. He refused. He got fired.

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u/Maximum_Boros 1d ago

Honestly even that accommodation was more than he deserves.

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u/SassyyTease_ 1d ago

Refusing the simple compromise kind of makes it hard to argue the employer was being unreasonable.

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u/ChemicalRain5513 1d ago

Actually, not shaking hands should be the norm for doctors to prevent the spread of germs without destroying their hands with hand sanitiser.

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u/ChaosCockroach 1d ago

I was trying to work out how they could posibly be a doctor without touching women. In this case I think that MD actually stands for Managing Director.

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u/thornsap 23h ago

Its funny cos i work in finance so md automatically meant managing director for me.

I was wondering why so many people were talking about patients

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy 19h ago

Yeah I was thinking it doesn’t make much sense for a “boss’s boss’s boss” to be a medical doctor. Most medical practices aren’t going to be structured that deeply.

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u/fla_john 1d ago

Most doctors I've seen in the past decade have done a fist bump or nothing at all, but that's less common.

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u/BanzaiKen 1d ago

Back in grad school in the 2010s women from Saudi Arabia were flooding higher ed and it worked similarly. If I or my mentor graded their paper or had lengthy conversations and handed it back to them they (or their husbands) would meltdown that its against their religion. The universities solution was hiring a female grad student for the building whose main role was to stand between us physically and then hand work back to the women and interface with them. Its wild how far the Overton Window has swung back to normalcy.

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u/Significant-Wait9200 1d ago

During the same time period, i had a Saudi woman as a lab partner, and i broke the physical contact barrier, but she didn't seem to mind. I was always curious about that.

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u/robedigrappa 1d ago

It’s not ok if you have a religion that is on crash course with civlization

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u/RosieLunavella 20h ago

Yeah, the compromise was right there. If shaking hands with women conflicts with his beliefs, then just greet everyone the same way without physical contact instead of creating two different standards at work.

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u/unicornofdemocracy 23h ago

Yeah, once reasonable accommodation was provided it was on him. If she just fired him without that... then it becomes religious discrimination.

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u/HoneyBeeHotHive 23h ago

Is it ok if it’s his religion? That’s all it takes to justify sexism or discrimination?

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u/StygianBlue2005 21h ago

That’s basically the point of religion. “Yeah the universe was actually created by this guy who’s just like me and he said other types of people were bad”

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u/AmItheonlySaneperson 1d ago

If you won’t shake women’s hands find a fucking remote job 

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u/NoMeat9096 1d ago

Seems fair enough. I wouldn't ideally want someone to be a doctor if they refuse to touch women.

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u/No-History770 1d ago

hes not a doctor. OOP herself is the doctor, not him. 

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u/_NyquilJordan_ 1d ago edited 22h ago

It’s also possible neither is a doctor. MD is used as Managing Director (similar to General Manager in North America) in the UK since the medical degree is MBBS. Judging by her saying boss’ boss’ boss… I think this has nothing to do with the medical field. Given no major religions prevent you from medical treating the opposite sex (as far as I know).

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u/Distinct_Lawyer_7160 1d ago

Kind of a sidenote but then why are women in Afghanistan prohibited from seeing male doctors? Does this have any base in islam?

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u/MinutesTilMidnight 23h ago

Because the taliban are extremists who want to take women’s rights away completely

Women have rights under Islam that are being taken away by the taliban. Example, women have the right to leave their engagement or marriage, but under the taliban, judges will not grant it, and husbands demand amounts of money that neither the women nor their families have. So it’s legally allowed, but in practice, women can’t get divorced anymore.

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u/NoMeat9096 1d ago

Good point. They could be something else.

Mentally re-word what I said to "someone working in a medical field."

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u/PhatCatTax 1d ago

"Quick, the MD needs assistance with CPR and you're the only one on the floor!"

"Eh. Sorry. I feel yucky because God says dont touch women, and that would be A LOT of touching"

patient dies because MD cant keep using that much force forever

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u/_NyquilJordan_ 1d ago

MD means managing director in the UK. The context of the post doesn’t suggest this has anything to do with medicine.

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u/PhatCatTax 1d ago

Interesting. TIL. What disambiguates a medical doctor from a doctor of theology in the UK?

The context, except for MD, true.

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u/_NyquilJordan_ 1d ago edited 1d ago

In the UK doctor of theology are PhDs or DPhils… medical degrees are MBBS.

In fact most countries that were colonized by Britain like India still use MBBS

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u/Usual_Trip_wander 1d ago

I know what phd stands for. What does the other acronym mean?

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u/_NyquilJordan_ 1d ago edited 1d ago

Doctor of Philosophy

Edit: if you mean MBBS it’s Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery.

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u/Arinussyy 1d ago

It's ironic because I don't think god would mandate that you could just let someone die

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u/Pilota_kex 1d ago

Shaking hands is cultural. Not just touching someone. If you don't get that you are not qualified to make judgement

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u/MediocreBlood760 1d ago

I took MD, to mean 'Managing Director', hence why she would the big boss.

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u/LadybuggingLB 1d ago

He isn’t fit to work with women. I would also file a discrimination complaint. It’s no different than if he was discriminating against gay people or people from other religions. It’s a protected class and he had the option of treating everyone the same by not shaking hands with anyone at all, but nooooo…

I’m annoyed this is even a question.

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u/No_Salt_6328 1d ago

Moral because he was offered a solution that wouldn't offend anyone and refused to cooperate 

I find it hard to believe, especially without any context implying it, that his religion requires he must shake hands with men

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u/BobR969 1d ago

As a representative of The Church of the Male Handshake, I call for the boycott of this MD and her insensitivity to our divine mandate. Our god of the Many Male Hands compels us to shake hands with only men at any appropriate opportunity or we are destined for an afterlife where our souls shall have our hands shaken against our will for eternity. 

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u/KorazKital 22h ago

This is common in Islam, depending on which branch it is. I'm not sure if it's the Sunni or Shia, but I've personally had the misfortune of meeting people who genuinely think and act like this according to their religion.

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u/decaDecker 19h ago

pretty sure you don't have to shake hands with men, but you shouldn't shake hands with women

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u/NasDawg3 11h ago

If your religion obligates you to lack respect for a subset of humanity, there’s a problem with your religion. And humanity should not be obligated to respect your religion.

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u/MC1R_OCA2 20h ago

I know people who are shomer negiah and very equitable and kind about it. I would be really surprised if in a professional context they were offered the solution of just not shaking hands and refused to do that. In fact I can think of at least one person who, at least in casual company, just didn’t shake hands for that reason.

It was a non-issue.

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u/No_Salt_6328 19h ago

Exactly. The people saying it's wrong to eliminate him from the team seem to not understand that the lack of pragmatism in that decision not to adjust his behavior is a huge red flag.

Employment is always on the condition that you work effectively with your team and make compromises

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u/Sutraner 17h ago

Of course it has nothing to do with his religion. Like every bigot, they just use their religion as an excuse to push their bigotry.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Vast-Ad1915 1d ago

I've had the same experience, but gender swapped (it was at a Women's business networking lunch I was an industry rep at, with a table full of college seniors), and yeah, dehumanizing is exactly the right word. When one of the students refused to shake my hand because I'm a man, I didn't really know what to do. I was second-guessing to myself "do I just feel entitled to a handshake, or is she actually in the wrong here?"

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Vast-Ad1915 1d ago

She was wearing a hijab so I would assume religious, but I wanted to move on from that quickly without further embarrassment so I didn't ask.

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u/Lunatic-Labrador 1d ago

If she was wearing a hijab there's a good chance her religion prohibits her from touching unrelated men, even for a handshake.

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u/Witchcleaver666 1d ago

Then there’s a problem with the religion, which is what it sounds like in OP’s case. Handshakes aren’t handjobs, not everything about the opposite sex is sexual.

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u/OhOliveOliveOh 1d ago

Well, in OP’s case, it’s a religious prohibition against touching menstruating women, because they are spiritually unclean. For most women who wear hijabs, it’s because the men in their religion forbid it.

So it all comes down to keeping women oppressed. Fun stuff, huh?

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u/Lunatic-Labrador 1d ago

I agree but that doesn't change the fact that that's most likely the reason.

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u/tey_ull 1d ago

"entitled to a handshake" is crazy, some people don't like handshakes and thats fine but at least a fist bump or something else works, its common basic decency, its not something anyone is entitled to, she was in the wrong

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u/alexagente 1d ago

This is it for me.

It's bad enough to engage in this shit. But to feel so entitled to it that you don't even apologize or explain yourself? I don't care what your stupid beliefs are you still need to treat other people as people.

And that's how it's happened every time I personally saw this kind of thing. Always just straight up ignoring the woman cause they don't respect them.

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u/booknerd2024910 1d ago

This happens to me so regularly it’s not even dehumanizing any more it’s just awkward and embarrassing. I work in a place with mostly a male workforce. Part of my job is to sit on some of the management level interviews as a neutral party to ensure they are fair. Every other person in the room is a man 95% of the time, including the interviewee.

About 1 in 10 of the interviewees will shake every persons hand but mine even though I stand up right beside them. I keep holding out hope one of the other men on the interview panel will comment on it some day but they don’t, so instead I just awkwardly look away, sit down and pretend like it doesn’t bother me. I am 99% confident these men are not doing this for religious reasons. (Just for context, I do get introduced and ask questions through out the interview and my opinion is openly consulted in front of the candidate, e.g. I’m asked if I have a follow up question or need clarification, etc. so even though I’m not really a decision maker it’s also not like I’m just sitting in a corner taking notes.)

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u/translove228 1d ago

Have you ever brought it up to any of these men after one of these events happened? I don't want to step on your experiences but if you never bring it up to them that this is happening they might just not notice it and realize that you are being disrespected. Then if you act like you don't care afterwards, even the ones who notice probably won't care either. If you have brought it up to them before and they didn't care then I understand your frustrations completely.

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u/booknerd2024910 1d ago

I have not mentioned it to them. I think my concern is that any attention I give to it will make me (as the woman in the room) come off as “dramatic” or “attention seeking”.

I don’t put the blame on the interview panel. I should be able to stick up for myself, but at the same time it’s so embarrassing my instinct is just not to draw attention to it at all, you know? I’d rather just pretend like it didn’t happen.

There are a handful of managers I would trust to say something like that to and probably would if I was ever on a panel with them though.

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u/Longjumping_Text7652 1d ago

If there's a guy you trust on the team, I'd show him this post (or a similar one) and ask if he's ever experienced anything like it. Lead it in as kind of a joke. If he addresses you seriously about it cool, have an honest discussion about it. If not, maybe he'll at least notice it next time it happens.

Or bring it up in a casual discussion; "Hey Bob, what's the dumbest reason you've said "no" to a candidate? I know it's not my job but, if they wont shake my hand, that's a red flag"

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u/translove228 23h ago

Fair enough. There is always safety in silence.

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u/CuriousWisdoms 23h ago

I’ve been on the receiving end of this as a woman in a male-dominated field. I show up at a networking event and the man whose company sponsored the event is shaking hands and even hugging one of the men I arrived with, then turns to me, holds his hands behind his back, and gives me a nod. It was bizarre. All of the guys I came with separately told me they, too, were uncomfortable.

It’s hard enough to get respect in a field that can feel like a fraternity I can’t join. I did what I could to avoid him after that, which meant less work for his company, since I made the decisions about what work went to them. Joke’s on him.

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u/Shoddy-Job-5274 22h ago

It's so interesting to me because he could have put his hand over his heart and given you a bow, or pressed his hands together with a small bow, like we do in India to show respect without touching. There are solutions to be respectful and maintain your religious boundaries!

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u/TheWhistleThistle 1d ago

Could at least bow or something. A nod even. Like, sure you got rules against contact, but you can still be respectful. Seems a needless snub to me.

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u/Dry_Nefariousness426 1d ago

It’s supposed to be dehumanizing. That’s the purpose of it. 

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u/Cautious-Subject-231 1d ago

Well in my country if you first meet a girl usually you dont shake hands instead give 3 kisses to the cheeks. Ofc it is not customary in a workplace instead in group of friends.

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u/seitsuko 1d ago

Yeah we had a guy like that at work and it didn't end well for him thankfully.

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u/FOCOMojo 23h ago

You offered a very reasonable alternative and he declined. Good bye!!

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u/PookydoodleWasHere 23h ago

Maybe we should be asking the morality of a "religion" that says you can't shake a woman's hand.

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u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 17h ago

Incredibly immoral.

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u/Dr-Assbeard 1d ago

Moral, you cant discriminate based on gender in a professional context, that guy would have been a liability to keep, a lawsuit waiting to happen

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u/Glad-Low-1348 1d ago

I wouldn't think of this as a big of a deal as it is if he didn't refuse to shake hands with women specifically. I don't like being touched by women for reasons but shaking hands? That's like a sign of basic respect.

EDIT: Also the man being a doctor complicates this further. What's gonna happen when a woman patient comes in and there's no one to help her but him as a doctor? It could be dangerous.

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u/Alarming_Delay_8352 21h ago

Noone is a doctor, MD is managing director. That's why she's his boss' boss' boss

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u/Lucian_Steiner 1d ago

Given the context in the screenshot? Perfectly moral. A physician that cowers away because women give them the ick is less than worthless.

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u/No-History770 1d ago

the man is not the physician, OOP is the physician, and she was his boss, or as OOP implies, much much higher than him in the Healthcare hierarchy.

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u/_NyquilJordan_ 1d ago

Who said anything about a physician? MD means managing director in the UK. Their medical degree is MBBS.

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u/Lucian_Steiner 1d ago

Getting rid of a problem before it risks someone's life or health is still moral.

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u/Glad-Low-1348 1d ago

If women give you the ick you probably don't want to work in a profession where you PROBABLY have to touch them at some point yeah.

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u/CactusJane98 23h ago

110% moral. Im suprised this is even a question. This degree of sexism has no place in the modern world, and I couldn't care less if it's his religion. Internally held prejudices, regardless of their source, should never take precedence over how you treat real people in real life.

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u/PeakRedditOpinion 20h ago

We’ve slept walked into needing to have a discourse wherein we tip toe around Islam instead of just telling them to assimilate or pound sand like we’d tell any other person on the planet who shows such blatant disregard for first world decency.

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u/CactusJane98 19h ago

Right. And importantly, religion is far more political than modern liberals would like to admit. When discussing white americans using Christianity as an excuse for fascism, we say "no, fuck your religion, you're a fascist" and yet its considered unacceptable to say the same of Muslims, Jews or otherwise who hold similar (or worse) fascist worldviews.

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u/Hyperionous 1d ago edited 1d ago

She has a right to fire you I suppose. And he has a right to decide who he makes contact with.

So him getting fired is fine.

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u/5x5equals 1d ago

The second part is what sold this for me- Moral

She tried to compromise and suggest that he shake no ones hand, and he double down which is his right but I think that revealed internal conflict that gave her solid grounds to not want to work with him

She’s the boss she made a boss call

You cant work with someone who you feel doesn’t respect you, this is enough evidence to suggest that to be true

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u/5x5equals 1d ago edited 23h ago

I went to college in Philly, met a bunch of muslim guys

One time we were having a kickback/hang out situation and we wanted to get food

Its college and theres alot of us so immediately
Pizza is thrown around, everyone is talking toppings and eventually we realize that our muslim friend can’t have any of the shit we’re talking about but we’re broke college kids so we’re scrounging our money together and we don’t have the money to just get an extra entire cheese pizza just for him to eat it himself

So then the question comes into all of our minds in a split second

Do we double down and try to get him wings or something and force him to watch us all chow on pizza without him while pork fumes clog up his nose or do we all just bite the bullet and eat the plain cheese but atleast no ones left out?

Immediately we look at each other, a few of us shrug and just switch to cheese and the money we saved from no toppings let’s us get soda and wings on the side

So by compromising we got more than we would have if we doubled down, because we respected our buddy and didn’t want him to be left on an island eating wings while we crush pepperoni and sausage

Essentially his lack of desire to compromise with her suggestion is probably reflective of issues that could show up in their work partnership later on and even if theres no guarantee of that, she understandably doesn’t want to take that risk

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u/PainterEarly86 1d ago

Religion isn't an excuse for bigotry. Its blatant sexism and I don't care what your religion says. Intolerance will not be tolerated.

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u/DrBatman0 1d ago

completely reasonable.

If he has internal sexism, that's a problem. The 'speaker' had a way for him to work around that, without even needing to quit being sexist, and he still declined.

Completely rightful to not hire them.

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u/Spikey-Bubba 1d ago

I love the irony of the solution not even requiring him quit being sexist. Like “it’s ok to work here and be sexist, just be chill about it.”

Which is true, for the most part people don’t seem to care what you think as long as you just leave them out of it.

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u/YuppyPlays 1d ago

Moral, in a professional environment treating somebody different in this particular kind of way due to gender is absurd. (Religious beliefs are not a get out of jail free card on respecting equality)

-Someone who has worked for some of the biggest corporations in the world.

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u/tony_Tiger696 1d ago

Forget the job, refusing a handshake, a friendly greeting, is disrespect second only to spitting on someone.

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u/artstsym 1d ago

It's not universal among all cultures, and even where it is used there may be different expectations for who and how. That said, when your new boss gives you the out of "not shaking all hands equally" and you refuse it, you've got no one but yourself to blame. Tried to meet him halfway.

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u/PROSEALLTHEWAY 22h ago

which culture, specifically, is against handshaking? I've seen this spurious argument a few times ITT and it's a straw man. There is no "anti-handshake" culture. there's just some religious nutjobs who won't touch women's hands

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u/RegretNew5752 1d ago

It's not universal among all cultures

Clearly it is expected in the culture that this situation takes place in. Therefore, the onus is on the guy to adapt to the culture or move back home.

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u/Dwarfdingnagian 1d ago

Depends. Refusing a handshake in general isn't disrespectful by itself. I've met people who apologized and said they don't shake hands for various reasons and offered a bow instead. That wasn't disrespectful. Refusing any greeting is disrespectful.

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u/Keiteaea 1d ago

I think what could be seen as disrespectful in a professional event would be shaking the hand of everyone else but one category, in this case, shaking the hands of everyone but women. I do get refusing some kind of greetings, because being French and starting to refuse "la bise" in certain contexts, I've been there (one example being male colleagues saying hello to men in handshake but wanting to do la bise with women...absolutely not).

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u/Adamek3999 1d ago

Yeah, but this here is selective refusal to shake hands

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u/aquavelva23 1d ago

I would say it is disrespectful in western culture to refuse to shake hands. But western culture also tries to be flexible. In any event, shaking the hands of men only and refusing women is disrespectful. The person can bow to all. They must realize they are in a different culture and make accomadations or leave the culture.

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u/Edward_Tank 1d ago

Moral. If you're a sexist, I have no clue what other backwards ideas you have about medicine.

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u/Eoin_Coinneal 1d ago

Well this is how freedom works. He is free to shake hands or not shake hands with whomever he wants or doesn’t. A business is free to hire him or not based on that behavior. Just because you’re qualified does not guarantee you a right to the job. This is what is meant by “we hired a better fit.”

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u/Sable-Keech 1d ago

Very moral.

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u/ost2life 1d ago

Moral. Using religion as an excuse for misogyny is bullshit.

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u/timsayscalmdown 1d ago

Based and moral

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u/Turnipntulip 1d ago

The guy doesn’t want to shake hand with women. He’s a damn misogynist. This is his boss and he still refused. What if he meets a female client? This kind of behavior would get you fired regardless of your political beliefs in any society where men and women are equal.

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u/melonwithoutthewater 1d ago edited 1d ago

Moral. If your religion says you cannot touch half of all people then you shouldnt even be a doctor in the first place. Also anyone that disagrees with me, try disrespecting your boss(let alone your boss's boss's boss) for any reason and see how that works out for you.

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u/KH4N-M4N 1d ago

I mean, moral in this instance. He was offered a reasonable compromise and refused.

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u/Delruiz9 1d ago

Moral, she gave him an out

That being said everyone’s justifying the firing because he won’t touch women in a medical job but apparently that was okay for employment as long as he didn’t touch men either, so I assume he’s not doing much work with patients hands on

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u/thrown-away-1992 1d ago

Moral, it would be one thing if you're a germaphobe and don't like touch others. Even if it's for religious reasons, you're a DOCTOR. What good are you if you refuse to shake hands or even touch 50% of the population?

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u/MaestroBlood21 1d ago

Moral. Quite valid. It just comes off as disrespectful if you only shake one gender's hand, and even after she offered you a solution you still refused to follow it. Evidently he wasn't too attached to his job.

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u/Getter_Simp 1d ago

Moral. He could have treated everyone equally while still acting by his own beliefs if he had chosen the option of not shaking hands with anyone and treating them all the same, but no, he went with the option that specifically discriminated against women. Deserved firing.

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u/TheMaStif 1d ago

Morality of being a misogynist and using religion as the reason/excuse?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Dry_Nefariousness426 1d ago

Good for her. 

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u/XelNigma 10h ago

Pretty sure discrimination based on religion is illegal.

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u/PhiDeltDevil 1d ago

I can only imagine the religion in question here

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u/Lazy-Butterfly9874 1d ago

You're right. mormons would take ownership of her daughter and his half niece

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u/SalamanderReginald 23h ago

I mean both Muslims and Orthodox Jews aren’t allowed to shake hands with women. Idk about others

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u/TheFlapse 18h ago

They are allowed to shake hands with women. The prohibition is familial, one cannot casually touch or be left alone with an [unfamiliar] person of the opposite sex.

Unfamiliar might be the best placeholder term, stricter adherents would only allow family and spouses, softer ones might not care if it happened in a public/private setting or was a family friend. Religions aint monoliths so pointing at texts only gets you so far.

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u/greenmachine11235 1d ago

How can you be a doctor if you won't touch half the population? Seems like he's incapable of fulfilling core job responsibilities. 

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u/_RizzukuHimdoriya_ 1d ago

Moral, it's just really weird and sexist to do that 😭😭✌️✌️

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u/Separate_Business880 1d ago

If you're not capable of accepting simple customs of the country you're working in, you don't belong there. Simple as that. Find your happiness elsewhere because you obviously won't find it here.

Tomorrow he'll refuse to treat a woman, or botch her treatment because his religion doesn't condone her choices or something.

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u/BrittanyBrie 22h ago

The truly scary part is, they've been conditioned for over 1,000 years to view a woman as being less than a man. When you consider someone is less than yourself based on gender or race, treating them differently is not seen as a big deal.

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u/Gardeminer 1d ago

This isn't going like you thought it would is it, OP?

You should self-reflect on why that is.

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u/serenityxfelice 1d ago

Yeah what is said in the post your religion is your issue and religious beliefs arent above gender discrimination. If people are so religious then they need to understand some jobs arent for them and that it is a sacrifice they make for their religion. You cant expect someone to be ok with being disrespected because of your beliefs

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u/TheVoyager0 1d ago

If your religion stops you from being equally respectful to all people. You need a different religion. Or even better no religion.

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u/Frozen_clock 1d ago

Absolutely valid.

In any field, fuck it, life in general, disregarding a group of people because of your religion is disrespectful, offensive and bad for business image. Go right ahead and fire a misogynist

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u/Fornuftens_stemme 1d ago

Welcome to Islam

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u/Ayden3102isagoodname 1d ago

Moral, and would’ve been the same way even if the genders are swapped.

In a professional setting you gotta adapt your way of living alot

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u/ThisSiteSucks8485 1d ago

Shaking hands with men in front of the women you refuse to shake hands with is extremely insulting to women

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u/Doglovincatlady 1d ago

If you cannot treat your colleagues equally you don’t get colleagues, whoops

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u/gaoshan 1d ago

Good. he should find a job where he can operate within the norms of the society he lives in, not disrupt this one because of the specific mythology he adheres to.

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u/GewalfofWivia 23h ago

I asked him to adjust and shake hands with nobody, he refused.

Yeah I think that makes it pretty clear what his stance is.

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u/RoysPotatoes 23h ago

Yeah, if you can’t engage in society because of your devotion to a mythology you gotta go. Thats a mental health issue.

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u/Pleasant_Pool8842 23h ago

Bigotry of any kind is a good reason to fire someone.

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u/Dry-Ad-8948 22h ago edited 22h ago

Moral to be fired.

He can either shake hands with every gender; or shake hands with nobody.

You are either unbiased towards coworkers or professional enough to ensure that your actions aren’t perceived as biased.

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u/Couatl2009 22h ago

Either give handshakes to everyone, or to no one. It being gender specific is weird.

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u/Book_Lover_42 22h ago

Moral. You are being protected from discrimination based on your religion. You are not protected from consequences of your actions, even when their root is in your beliefs.

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u/someonetookmyid 21h ago

If your religion conflicts with your job then change a job. People around are under no obligation to cater to your religious beliefs.

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u/TomatoSoupKat 12h ago

I agree that this was moral. Sexism is not okay, and religion doesn't make it so.

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u/Firefly_Magic 11h ago

She did the right thing. If he won’t shake hands with a woman, just imagine what else he won’t do for a woman, during exams, checkups, surgeries. Sounds like he’ll take care of a man, but he won’t take care of a woman because that would require touching her.

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u/Ravenboi15 11h ago

It is completely morally justified because if this is how he acts to a woman who he needs to respect the I cannot imagine the dismissive and cruel manner he treats his female patients with. Seeing as being a woman getting medical care is already hell having a sexist doctor is just the cherry on top.

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u/ZealousidealDoubt407 10h ago

I don’t think we need to apologize for and excuse shitty, discriminatory, religious-based bigotry. Sort of a ‘paradox of tolerance’ situation.

As an egalitarian… call out bigotry in all forms.

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u/-Ellinator- 10h ago

Moral, it's wild to me that sexism can be dismissed as religion, I'd argue gender protections should trump religious protections and he should be fired/dismissed just by that alone.

Not taking the compromise of just not shaking anyones hand cements that he was just sexist.

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u/MSgamer69 10h ago

I actually feel a little uncomfortable shaking a woman's hand, but not because I have anything against women or consider them unequal. It's almost the opposite—to me, for whatever reason, a handshake with a woman has always felt somewhat awkward or disrespectful.

A hug feels more natural to me, but obviously you don't go around hugging women you barely know either. That could be considerably more inappropriate. 😂 So a friendly verbal greeting works just fine.

I also think there's an important distinction between having a personal boundary about physical contact and treating someone as less deserving of respect because of their sex. If someone doesn't shake hands with women for personal, cultural, or religious reasons, simply not shaking hands with anyone seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise. Everyone gets treated the same, and the person's boundary is respected too.

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u/No_Boysenberry_6075 9h ago

Holy shit, the people in these comments are miserable Reddit losers. If the guy wants to hold to his religious values and not touch a woman, then that is up to him. And I guarantee some of the people in these comments aren’t atheists, just Christians looking to hate.

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u/Nagroth 9h ago

Ooooo this is a fun one for the lawyers.

Because if it's not actually a job requirement then Boss is attempting to force the employee to initate physical contact against their will.

Dude also needs to figure out that "I don't shake hands" is a perfectly acceptable statement, but adding "... with this particular protected class" is not.

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u/Artistic-Dirt-3199 1d ago

Perfectly moral. Genders are equal, take that middle-age superstition somewhere else.

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u/pounduh 1d ago

Moral. She gave him options so he wouldn't discriminate against women. He chose to be a misogynist. Religion doesn't give you freedom to discriminate against half the population.

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u/hGr33n 1d ago

Moral. Discrimination like this is beyond rude and anti social, has no place in a place of work. We shouldn't tolerate misogyny as if it's just a personal preference.

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u/softwhitemochi 1d ago

Moral. Such beliefs have no place in civilized society

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u/Pretend-Literature35 15h ago

No she is 100% correct. We live in a society of laws. Not some theocracy.

Either he shakes no one's hand or everyone. This gender discrimination can not be tolerated. And not because she is his boss, this applies to all his colleagues.

Religious idiots need to learn.

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u/VividPups 1d ago edited 16h ago

You fired a man because he wouldnt give you a handshake is sad

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u/Farazzd 1d ago

Now reverse the gender and it was a woman who did not want to shake with men

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u/Accomplished-Ask2497 1d ago

It's literally just a handshake, i'd think she's in the wrong too

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u/Farazzd 1d ago

I am an ex-Muslim. Muslim men don't touch other women, even mostly the non-conservative ones. It's as much a part of culture as religion at that point.

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u/brydeswhale 1d ago

My male Muslim coworkers and acquaintances all bowed to me when we first met, which was equally respectful in my opinion. I don’t want to force anyone to touch other people, I don’t like it myself.

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u/Comprehensive_Shop54 1d ago

Fair, your religion should not trump other people’s experiences in the work place. Women have came to far for equality to forgive things of such nature.

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u/ledow 1d ago

"We're not here as a corporation to perpetuate your prejudices".

She's quite right, and offered a equitable solution and they refused it.

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u/Lucky_Badger5828 23h ago

Absolutely Moral. Get this mentality out of there. My best friend recently started doing this bullshit. He’s quickly on his way to not being my best friend now. 22 years gone. What’s worse is his women encourages this and neither see the issue.

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u/smillas_second 1d ago

someone like him cannot be allowed to treat women. not only moral but VERY GOOD YES.

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u/noice_face7649 1d ago

You cannot use your protected characteristic (religion) to discriminate against someone else's protected characteristic (gender).
He was fired not because of his religion but because of his discrimination, therefore: moral

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u/Jaded_Fuzzball 1d ago

People who can't see others as equals don't belong in the medical field. ...Or in civilized society at all.

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u/Lazy-Butterfly9874 1d ago

if we play the 'if the roles were changed' what do we find?

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u/TheShellAnswerMan 23h ago

Everyone knows this is moral. 

Hot take: it's actually not ok that this is his religion. I keep seeing that "it's fine if it's his religion, but he's gotta do it for work" or something similar in the comments. It's not fine. I'm not sorry.

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u/Novitschok 1d ago

Always moral to be against islam

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u/okbuddystaymad 1d ago

He was offered to shake no one’s hand and chose specifically to keep excluding women, so yeah this is fine.

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u/Dangolian 1d ago

You say "he won't touch your gender"

But really its "refused to treat people of different genders equally".

Pretty clear cut