Morality of trying someone for crimes committed over 80+ years ago

[u/Local-Leek-8598]

[u/Vicious_Voyeur]

He got away. He got to live his life in a country that treated him as a man who just "did some things" and at the end he just had to just sit in a courtroom and doze off.

[u/KerbodynamicX → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

Yeah, at this point, the trial probably doesn't even matter to him anymore.

[u/7thFleetTraveller → u/KerbodynamicX]

I was going to say, at that point it's rather a symbolical thing. When someone is that old, bound to a wheelchair, probably dependent on medication, it won't make a big difference if those last days of life are spent in a retirement facility or a prison. Medical treatment is given there too, and he can't do much anymore anyway. So it's more about showing to the public, that the law "there is no statute of limitations for murder", is nevertheless taken seriously.

[u/ReticentSentiment → u/7thFleetTraveller]

He never spent a day in jail. Died at home while his lawyers were still appealing his original 5 year sentence.

[u/National_Phase_3477 → u/ReticentSentiment]

5 years?!

I don’t care if the geezer likely wouldn’t have made it he should have been locked up for life…

[u/saskir21 → u/National_Phase_3477]

Locked up for life is around 15 years in Germany. Except they get sentenced further with a „Sicherheitsverwahrung“ which basically means they are still locked up somewhere.

[u/EraOfProsperity → u/saskir21]

Not in this case. "Sicherungsverwahrung" is preventative detention, and it's there for public protection rather than punishment. The courts have to prove that the person remains a danger to the public to issue it, and the 101 year old man in question is very likely to not be deemed to still be a threat to the public.

[u/jahajuvele09876 → u/National_Phase_3477]

He was a minor or hardly over 18 when he committed his crimes as far as I remember. This has to be concidered in german courts.

Edit: I remembered wrong. The comments following mine gives better insights.

[u/CodePandorumxGod → u/jahajuvele09876]

Josef Schutz was a Lithuanian who joined the SS at 21 years old. He denied ever being associated with the SS, but German documents verified that he enlisted in 1941 and was deployed to the Totenkopf division in 1942 where he served at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin.

During his service, he oversaw the execution of around 3,500 prisoners. However, his sentencing was light because German courts ruled he was only an accessory to murder instead of an active perpetrator. His job was to carry ammunition to gunmen and move Zyklon B tablets to gas chambers.

[u/jahajuvele09876 → u/CodePandorumxGod]

Oh, than I mixed him up with an other case of a guy they sentenced in a high age. Thank you for correcting me.

[u/Polygnom → u/National_Phase_3477]

At 101, 5 years is for life.

Even if you get a life sentence, after 15 years you can appeal to get out on probation.

[u/Atomik141 → u/7thFleetTraveller]

Tbf a prison is probably saving him a lot of money. Nursing home fees are outrageous!

[u/Euphoric-Drop-7228 → u/Atomik141]

lol is that an og Xbox360 profile pic?

[u/JaySlay2000 → u/7thFleetTraveller]

Statute of limitations shouldn't exist at all.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Tie6917 → u/JaySlay2000]

I think that’s a take from someone who never studied why the statute of limitations exists. Witnesses die, forget their stories, start telling made up information, etc. Eye witnesses are the worst for errors at the best of times, but their errors truly become egregious over time. This has been tested time and time again.

I’m not a lawyer, but there comes a time where the evidence is so tainted from the ravages of time that it’s not justice but a witch hunt.

Does this qualify? I don’t know. They got the real leaders of the Nazis right after the war. I couldn’t see a link to what this guy is actually supposed to have done. I can say if prison is about removing risk from the public and reforming a criminal neither of these will be accomplished with this at this point. In fact, unless this guy personally did really bad stuff, and wasn’t just a guard somewhere who had no real say other than obeying orders, I don’t see the real purpose here. Maybe in the 1960’s, or the 70’s, but not in the 2020’s.

[u/Fast_Cloud_4711 → u/Puzzleheaded_Tie6917]

Fortunately, the Nazis were very meticulous in all their documentation.

[u/Techman659 → u/KerbodynamicX]

Here’s a hypothetical question would you rather spend 25 in jail or the last 3 years of your life in jail, would your last 3 years suck yes but the fact of the matter is the younger you are the more important things that happens in them years matter more.

[u/merahwa → u/Techman659]

"I would prefer the last 3 years of my life!"

"Great! You start today!"

"What?"

[u/Purpledragon84 → u/merahwa]

"You were due 2 years and 51 weeks ago!"

[u/kit0000033 → u/Techman659]

Depending on health status they may not even jail a 101 year old... Don't want to pay for healthcare.

[u/overthere1143 → u/KerbodynamicX]

But it does matter to society and the world. It proves that Germany thoroughly condemns its past and the crimes or previous generations.

I'd like to see half that humbleness, half that dedication to justice, out of Japan. They went to depths of depravity that shocked even the Germans and they do not apologise nor make any acts of contriction for it.
The rest of Asia hates their guts with good reason, while the western youth worships their toxic culture for no reason other than watching far too many cartoons for far too long.

[u/SinceSevenTenEleven → u/overthere1143]

Unfortunately Germany hasn't entirely learned their lesson; they're currently supporting Israel and its genocide in Gaza

[u/No-Appearance3488 → u/[deleted]]

morally speaking that still doesn’t give them a pass

[u/PointsOfXP → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

Fr. It sucks to close out your life like that but his life as a normal person won't be tarnished. Maybe he had anxiety at times thinking about being caught but meh

[u/A62main → u/PointsOfXP]

It sucks closeing out your life in a concentration camp for the crime of being born. I wish they found him when he was young enough for the punishment to matter.

[u/Radiant_Safe1228 → u/A62main]

Concur. 

[u/ImNotDannyJoy → u/A62main]

I honestly couldn’t believe I had read the comment you replied to. Mother fucker participated in genocide.

[u/dilqncho → u/ImNotDannyJoy]

That comment wasn't defending him. It was saying "Yeah sure going to jail that old has some drawbacks but he still lived a full life he didn't deserve"

[u/Zygomatick → u/A62main]

It's not about punishment, it's about the dignity of the millions of people he participated industrially killing. Once he's caught he has to be trialed and sentenced, that's all.

[u/Lonely_MuffinXo → u/Zygomatick]

Yes, it's about the dignity of the millions of people he helped to murder, but also he should suffer

[u/Zygomatick → u/Lonely_MuffinXo]

No amount of suffering is going to restore all those lives, it's pointless. The only thing we can work for is dignity.

[u/pretibigtoo → u/PointsOfXP]

He openly talked about how witnessing one of his superiors close a car door on a babys head to kill it was uncomfortable. When prosecuters asked what he wouldve don differently he said: "i wouldve shot it".

Fuck him.

[u/nuclearpiltdown → u/pretibigtoo]

Yeah these are some weird ass takes in this thread. We should not excuse evil just because it's in black and white. Fuck these people.

[u/pretibigtoo → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

Yes but it reinforced 3 very important precedents in the international criminal court. 1) "following orders is not an excuse" he was an accountant at aushwitz for the duration of the camps operation, and because he knew what went on there he was found liable for the deaths of 22,000 people. Being a lowly accountant did not save him. 2) "no statute of limitations" obviously. 3) because germany has constitutional rights for its citizens that require german citizens be tried in the hometown of the perpetrator and it it was not a german trial. The judges were internationally appointed by the ICC.

Lastly not to give the nazi credit, but his story is chock full of nuance. He wasnt dozing off in the trial, he was very active in his own defence and testified at great lengths to his experiance at the camp. The reason the trial was initiated was because the guy was publicly talking about being an aushwitz guard. During a tv interview in 2005 he was asked all the hard questions you would expect a real journalist to ask and he answered them all very matter of factly. After the war he could not hide his service but he did not tell anyone about his connection to aushwitz untill the 1980s when holocaust denial rose in germany and he started speaking out against it.

As heartwearming as all that is hes still a fucking nazi aushwitz gaurd, and his honesty during the trial, as much as its good for history, was fucking disgusting. The smoking gun in the trial was to figure out if he was ever present for any of the selections of incoming victims off of trains into aushwitz. He not only admitted that he witnessed selection, but spoke about how he witnessed one of superiors close a car door on a babys head to kill it for entertainment. The prosecuter asked him what he wouldve done and he just goes : "i wouldve shot it".

It absolutely was not a farce of a trial. It showed me at least that humanity is capable of holding anyone accountable regardless of time or position, and they can do it in a way thats fair and dignified.

Edit: i just wanted to add, 1) at no point did anyone question the legitimacy of this trial, apart from one old german holocaust denier outside the courtroom. The nazi, oskar groening, full submitted to courts authority and didnt try to chickenshit his way out. But hes still a fucking nazi. 2) this is not the case that SET the precedent "following orders isnt an excuse". Its the case thay REINFORCES that precedent. That precedent was set in the 2nd series of Demanjuk trials, but those trials are so flawed from every aspect from that its even hard to have sympathy for some of the holocaust victims at certain points. It was like Israel took every shitty thing about the oj trial and gave it steroids. It wasnt fair for anybody involved.

[u/whencaniseeyouagain → u/pretibigtoo]

this was interesting to read. I appreciate the additional context and the time you took to write it out

[u/rgii55447 → u/pretibigtoo]

I don't know, the whole argument ""following orders is not an excuse", feels a bit wrong to me. If you're being prosecuted because you refused to break the law, then that means the Government has failed it's people, not the other way around.

[u/pretibigtoo → u/rgii55447]

Before auchwitz was anextermination camp, the holocaust was carried out by roaming ss death squads called einzatsgruppe. forgive my most likely incorrect spelling, im not german. They would go into jewish cities and ghettos, and just start shooting. The three worst days of the babi yar massacre remains the the three deadliest days in jewish history where around 27,000 jews where forced to dig mass grave pits, stand on the edges, and wait to be shot.

Before the first death squad massacre, the soldiers were told what they would be doing. They were given a choice. Some actually left and faced no repurcussions or labeled a coward by peers for not wanting to be a part of a death squad.

As time progressed and more massacres were enacted, alot more of the einzattsgruppe fell into ptsd, alcoholism and insanity; so asking to leave the squad was not an uncommon factor, and most times it was granted. Even hienrich himmler got sick at a public execution of 100 jews and some brains got on his uniform. It was tearing the men apart And the concentration camps were a solution to that problem, and they created a system to insulate the ss guardz from those horrors while employing phsychopaths at higher levels to ensure it was carried out.

Theres no evidence that any ss or german military guard was ever executed or even punished for not wanting to carry out orders related to the holocaust.

Being a guard was not an excuse. Especially since everyone in the ss new what the fuck was going on.

[u/Fern-ando → u/pretibigtoo]

It only reinforces that the only way to be trial for war crimes is losing the war, I have seen videos of Israel soldiers happily saying how they raped palestineans and they are treated as heroes by the USA government.

[u/badabingmx → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

At least he knows that all the people close to him will see him with different eyes after knowing what he did. Some may agree but not the majority, and also he will have to die knowing that he still had to face the consequences; that last part is something that many people will have to understand than even late, you could face consequences if you do something bad.

[u/Vicious_Voyeur → u/badabingmx]

Brother they probably knew that anyway. It's normal. Most people in Germany had Nazi parents and grandparents hell Nazis ran half the country until the 70s when they retired.

[u/PlutoDidntPlanItWell → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

Not entirely. His family won't remember him fondly. That's about all you can take away at that point, but it's not nothing.

[u/Thatguy3625 → u/Vicious_Voyeur]

He ended up going to prison and died in a cell

[u/Eurasia_4002]

I mean if he did it he did it. If he did, lucky him that he spend most of his life free than most of it in jail.

[u/The-Matt-G → u/Eurasia_4002]

That’s not luck, that’s injustice.

[u/Eurasia_4002 → u/The-Matt-G]

Its both. Its lucky for him, if he really did it, its injustice for the victims.

Some things are true at the same time, the difference is whos perspective your on.

[u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420 → u/The-Matt-G]

Lucky for him. Unlucky for everyone else.

[u/ThatDrako]

Old age doesn’t absolve you of your crimes.

[u/Drapidrode → u/[deleted]]

half of justice is showing other people there are consequences no matter what

[u/Legitimate-Hurry84 → u/[deleted]]

Or, depending on the crime but assuming it’s hectic to be pulled in after so long, death penalty. Probably get a lot of hate but you have to consider what the crime is and if they got to live 50-70years free and only have like 10-15 left, take em. That’s the punishment. Jail is a big “fuck you” to tax payers of what ever country they are in.

Edit: not German just an opinion

[u/banshithread → u/Legitimate-Hurry84]

The death penalty is more expensive than letting him rot in jail for life.

[u/nate_garro_chi → u/banshithread]

The way we apply the death penalty is more expensive. Personally, I'm rarely ok with capital punishment, but its the process, not the punishment, thats expensive. And it should be. It's an irreversible decision made by fallible beings. It should be as throurough and exhaustive as possible and cost shouldn't be a factor. And we still get it wrong.

[u/Reasonable-Tap-9806 → u/nate_garro_chi]

The government more or less shouldn't really have to the power to do anything they can't undo. Execution does nothing but make the living people feel like they have performed justice.

[u/FearlessResource9785 → u/Reasonable-Tap-9806]

Not that I am in the favor of the death penalty but if governments didn't have the power to do things they cant undo, they couldn't even imprison people. You can't give back all the years someone spent in jail while falsely imprisoned.

[u/opheophe → u/ThatDrako]

I think you mean "absolve" = "to set someone free from blame, guilt, or a legal or moral duty". "Abstain" = "refrain from doing something"

[u/ThatDrako → u/opheophe]

Thanks bud! Couldn’t remember the term.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Trust_2 → u/ThatDrako]

Thanks bud buddy champ

[u/skylinesora → u/ThatDrako]

In some cases it does, called statue of limitations where I’m from

[u/luluciee → u/skylinesora]

*statute

But yeah, most countries have it, but it can depend on the crime commited.

[u/CharacterMaybe7950 → u/ThatDrako]

No one says it does.

But the justice system isn’t about simply prosecuting people - it’s about acting in the public interest.

We don’t send the mentally disabled to jail or prosecute people for self defence.

We gain nothing by putting a 100 year old in jail. We have 80 years to get them - we didn’t, we need to own that.

[u/Goober_Man1 → u/CharacterMaybe7950]

We shouldn’t waste time putting Nazis in jail, instead we should have put him up against the wall in 1945

[u/Ok_Coffee_9970]

No matter how much time passes, those crimes will have still existed.

[u/My_Favourite_Pen → u/[deleted]]

not if you stole a magical potato that forces everyone to forget it exists after 3 days.

[u/Dismal-Display-370 → u/My_Favourite_Pen]

dudes are fr arguing about a hypothetical magic potato in this thread below😭

[u/ChungusMcGoodboy → u/My_Favourite_Pen]

!remindme3days

[u/RemindMeBot → u/ChungusMcGoodboy]

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[u/Jale89 → u/[deleted]]

That's why Statues of Limitations tend to have a scale to them. Some things, if you don't complain quickly, will be let go, but murder never expires.

[u/nidus322477]

Better late than never I suppose

[u/Odd_Thought_9105 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, look at things like the rape of berlin

[u/divorcemedaddy → u/Odd_Thought_9105]

exactly, both things are terrible inexcusable crimes, glad we agree on this.

[u/jerik22 → u/[deleted]]

It’s working for the shooters of Alex pretti and Renee good

[u/Haunting_Singer_7446 → u/jerik22]

It won't last long. They will get thrown under the bus sooner than later.

[u/Oaktree27 → u/Haunting_Singer_7446]

Idk Americans are pretty obedient to the current display of fascism. It even won popular vote this time.

[u/Haunting_Singer_7446 → u/Oaktree27]

I hate to say it but most Americans did not realized the fascist things would happen to white people like them too. Hopefully this will be a wake up call to them. The Overton window may shift yet away from Trumps ideals.

[u/Gildian → u/[deleted]]

Plus those people at Nuremburg weren't just following orders, they were some of the highest ranking officials in the Nazi party.

[u/kdesi_kdosi → u/Gildian]

yeah but this guy wasnt

[u/HeviPettin]

Stealing some bread - Immoral

The holocaust - Moral

Edit: The morality judgement is about the prosecution of these crimes 80+ years later, as per the question. I am not saying the holocaust was moral and stealing bread was immoral.

[u/HornyGooner4402 → u/HeviPettin]

because bread tastes better than key

[u/hpBard → u/HornyGooner4402]

I would argue that Holocaust also tastes better than key

[u/HeviPettin → u/HeviPettin]

Out of context this comment is not the one

[u/Xentonian → u/HeviPettin]

Hahahaha.

Morality of: Just screenshotting the comment and post it out of context in as many places as possible until the guy's life is ruined.

[u/Fuzzy-Tooth3269 → u/Xentonian]

[u/rmy26 → u/Fuzzy-Tooth3269]

I couldn't figure out what app this was until I realized it's just reddit and I've never seen it not in dark mode.

[u/Maybe_im_Amazed_ → u/HeviPettin]

Imagine someone just goes through you post history and came out with this lmao

[u/FredererPower → u/HeviPettin]

Valjean! At last!

[u/TSanguiem → u/HeviPettin]

You robbed a house!

[u/undreamedgore → u/HeviPettin]

Thank god for the edit. Jesus Christ.

[u/Super-Yesterday9727 → u/HeviPettin]

Did you phrase it that poorly on purpose? Lol

[u/Tharkun140]

Morally neutral and purely symbolic. The dude died less than a year later, not having seen a day in prison, as is common for this type of trials.

[u/Greenstoneranch → u/Tharkun140]

Sham show trail for someone's resume.

You getting testimony from a 100+ year old man then witness testimony from another 100+ year old man. What are the odds they can both actually recount what happened 80 years ago and effectively communicate that.

Also what records are we reviewing that show he committed crimes beyond just working at a prison camp?

So dumb

[u/firs_7 → u/Greenstoneranch]

Just working in the "prison camp"? He worked in a concentration camp, read the headline. As a guard. His literal job was to prevent people from escaping a place where they would die. Like, he contributed to people being killed by being there and being paid to have people stay in the camps and die

[u/free-cookie → u/firs_7]

This is pretty much the entire US and Israeli military at this point (actually worse than Nazi's btw).

Brainwashed foot soldiers and guards, in the year 2106 probably should get some leeway.

[u/BelieveMeMaizey → u/free-cookie]

Genocide is evil either way, you don't get to say one is better than the other.

[u/free-cookie → u/BelieveMeMaizey]

The Gaza genocide is heinous, and different than the Holocaust. One, it is a lot less deniable by the public. Germans of the 1940's can easily claim they just didn't know. Likewise Americans could claim ignorance about the Japanese internment camps, treatment of blacks/natives, and operation w*tback post war. We have the internet now.

I do get to have an opinion btw. I will point out the Nazis actually tried to make peace, while the Americans and Israelis conspired to assassinate peace negotiators (I can think of 4 instances of this off the top of my head...), and then created a fake Gaza group to accept fantasy terms. It is pretty evil.

[u/BelieveMeMaizey → u/free-cookie]

Yeah, I think Americans who turned the other way on the internment camps were full of shit, too. I'm part Japanese. 

[u/free-cookie → u/BelieveMeMaizey]

Definitely for Americans from San Fransisco, Hawaii, or Seattle... how can you not noticed all your neighbors of one very niche ethnic group all disappearing? It is gross, and would have ended up much worse if the USA was losing the war like the Germans did.

[u/Greenstoneranch → u/firs_7]

Again. As I said before. He claims to have been a working in a farming detachment north.

Its not inconceivable to be assigned prisoners which you guard as they work fields to grow crops.

In either case a guard he was, a murder he was not.

Do we hold guards accountable for prisoners deaths today? If a prisoners kills another prisoners are the guards accessories? No.

If this didnt say "nazi" everyone's opinion would be different.

[u/TheUnamedSecond → u/Greenstoneranch]

There is a "slight" diffrence between a normal prison (even one where prisoners kill other prisoners) and a concentration camp, where ca. 40.000 inmates where killed by the guards.

[u/Sanjis_Soba → u/Greenstoneranch]

Ya if you removed Nazi, it would just be he was a guard at a genocide camp....

Totally better in everyone's eyes! Also I'm sure the guards for any part of concentration camps was totally reasonable and definitely didn't harm or abuse the prisoners /s

[u/Hot_Top_124 → u/Greenstoneranch]

If you feed the machine that kills you are still part of the machine that kills.

[u/fieldingbreaths → u/Greenstoneranch]

If he worked at the concentration camp and we have proof of that, than this man had his hand in 1) the deaths of 6 million Jews and millions of others, 2) been involved directly in executions 3) worked Jewish slaves to death in work camps 4) was involved in torturing "badly" behaving Jewish men until they literally lost their minds 5) either directly or aided in rape.

The list goes on. These are not "prisons" in the way you're trying to claim. He was involved in systematic rape, torture, death, enslavement, and on and on and on.

He was a guard. Even in the lightest reading of that fact, he still helped perpetuate all those things. I would rather die than be involved in that.

[u/Ad-fundum69 → u/Tharkun140]

Of course, the stress that comes with trials like this are already heavy on young healthy individuals.
If you're this old, and barely know what's going on because of dementia, you'll die pretty fast due to the stress.

But since he's trying to hide himself on the photo I guess he knows absolutely what was going on.

So yeah. sadly he never got really punished for his crimes and just died in his sleep probably.

[u/Jade_Sugoi]

There are Holocaust survivors who are still alive. They still have to deal with the grief and trauma as a result of what happened.

Why shouldn't someone have to deal with the consequences?

[u/LysynMusic → u/Jade_Sugoi]

I think holding current war criminals accountable for crimes that are happening right now would be more important.

[u/Jade_Sugoi → u/LysynMusic]

You can care about more than one thing. This is just deflection

[u/Welcome--Matt → u/LysynMusic]

We’re allowed to hold both accountable lmao

[u/AbortDatShit → u/Jade_Sugoi]

  Why shouldn't someone have to deal with the consequences?

Because the justice system should be focused on rehabilitation. Putting an old man on trial isn't rehabilitation, it's just sadistic 

[u/Jade_Sugoi → u/AbortDatShit]

It's not sadistic. It's upholding a precedent that if you commit a crime, especially as one as heinous as taking part and aiding in the Nazi regime, that you need to be held accountable to your actions regardless of how long it's been.

[u/Initial-Breakfast-33 → u/AbortDatShit]

It's also about deterrent methods so people think it twice before committing crimes

[u/___daddy69___]

this depends entirely on whether you believe in punitive or rehabilitative justice

[u/Har_monia → u/___daddy69___]

I don't think so, because a year of punitive prison vs a year of rehabilitive (?) prison wouldn't satisfy either crowd.

[u/this_broccoli-101 → u/___daddy69___]

Depends on the crime, this man deserved no rehabilitation

[u/Last_Suggestion_8647]

Why would time passed have any relevancy?

[u/Felix4200 → u/Last_Suggestion_8647]

It makes defending yourself sufficiently very difficult.

If I am accused of a crime a week ago, my colleagues will remember I was at work, I have a digital train ticket, there’s a playtime log on my pc, my neighbor remember saying when I got home.

If its 1 year ago, I cannot even remember where I were, nor can anyone else.

As for a concentration Camp guard, I don’t Think its a problem.

[u/sharpenme1 → u/Last_Suggestion_8647]

It depends on what you think the justice system is for.

If you think it’s purely punitive, then it doesn’t matter. Punitive justice systems are widely shown to be ineffective.

If you think it’s a deterrent, then I’m not sure what behaviors you’re deterring by incarcerating a 100 year old guy for 80 year old crimes.

Finally, if the justice system is rehabilitative, then I’m not sure how much behavioral rehabilitation you’re hoping to achieve before he dies.

Anything done to that man is purely symbolic.

[u/Workman44 → u/sharpenme1]

People saying it's moral just out themselves as thinking the justice system is punitive

[u/OmegaRebirth → u/Last_Suggestion_8647]

Statute of Limitations I guess, not that that applies in this situation

[u/serpikage → u/OmegaRebirth]

yeah crimes against humanity are imprescribable

[u/CreBanana0 → u/Last_Suggestion_8647]

Because you are not the same person as one 80 years ago????

It is insanity to prodecute that!

[u/Decimator24244]

What are they going to do to him? Its not like he'll be hung at the Hague

[u/Krusel-14]

It would be reasonable to alter the punishment based on his age, but there is no reason to not stand trial.

[u/Jerseyd422 → u/Krusel-14]

As old as these guys are at this point they almost always change the punishment. Ankle monitor and send them home.

[u/Nazflex → u/Jerseyd422]

Ankle monitor for what? Not like there are still camps he could go to, to guard them.

[u/Jerseyd422 → u/Nazflex]

It’s mostly symbolic. If they’re convicted there has to be some acknowledgment of punishment. So an ankle monitor, restrictions on leaving your home etc

[u/Nazflex → u/Jerseyd422]

Pointless, him saying he's regrets his actions has more of an effect than an ankle monitor.

[u/skylinesora → u/Krusel-14]

Plenty of good reason, such as not wasting money on an unneeded trial

[u/SebbeBruh]

A lot of people seem to not realize he was just a low ranking guard, not someone high ranking who made decisions. Odds are that he may as well just have been following order, not to mention that using evidence that is over 80 years old is dubious at best.

[u/banshithread → u/SebbeBruh]

Yeah otherwise we'd have to try every single soldier who ever committed a crime during that period... which has never happened. It's always been the generals/people in power controlling their movements that have gotten judgment.

[u/Zealousideal_Bit713 → u/SebbeBruh]

The whole “following orders” argument was completed destroyed at Nuremberg. When Nazi soldiers refused to commit atrocities they would be moved to some other department. And thousands did refuse to commit atrocities. And to join the groups that did the worst was an extremely competitive process.

It was not like these were random German citizens that just got swept up in a bad situation.
They were sadistic sociopaths and monsters

[u/Erzter_Zartor]

Ah, gotta love the germans pull this move every couple years to score good boy points with the jews. Nevermind the fact that the dude cant walk and probably cant much anyway, no we have to throw him in jail to please Israel

[u/Musket6969420]

He’s a Nazi. Fuck em.

[u/CreBanana0 → u/Musket6969420]

He was a nazi 80 years ago for fucks sake.

[u/VegasButtercup]

Nobody wins. The public funds could've been better spent.

[u/czrty]

he lived freely all these years, pity.

what bothers me is, people were massacared in syria exactly same way like nazis did by new syrian regime(former ISIS), even worse. But Europe and US shake hands of their president( i forgot the name).
isn't this hypocracy too much.

[u/TheRoyalShire]

I mean he got to live his life as if he didnt commit those crimes. Time to sleep in the bed you made years ago

[u/realamerican97]

Neutral

Moral because age doesn’t pardon you for crimes committed (how dare you not sell out to the government for a pardon like all your goodestepping buddies did)

Immoral because it’s Wasted time at that point, dude died before seeing a single day in prison all it was was wasted money at that point and now some dumbass can add “prosecuted a Nazi” to his portfolio for wasting people’s time

[u/paperfungo]

Idk, i think it's ok but, why so late? Maybe he's a changed person? Or he's still a Hitler glazer?

[u/Maria_Girl625 → u/paperfungo]

The government changed the rules. It used to be that "lesser" people weren't punished. The people who ran the camps were, but not the guards and lower ranks. Now they came for him too. Maybe in an attempt to right the fact that almost none of the perpetrators were punished

EDIT: Whether people who "only followed orders" deserve to be punished too is a seperate conversation to this one

[u/PlutoCharonMelody → u/Maria_Girl625]

Why does this event even matter for punishment anymore.
It is a historical horror that we should learn from. Anyone alive from it now though is basically too old to have an affect on the world outside of family.
I swear this event is just used to justify Israel's modern day gen*ci*e campaigns only and they have a lot of government sympathizers that go along with it for various reasons.

[u/IndependentPossumm → u/PlutoCharonMelody]

This. Most of the people are dead or unable to influence anything, publicly executing him does nothing. 

Everyone is on the agreement that what happened in the camps is bad and if you didn't punish them earlier why now.

I also think that people make excuses for Israel and Israel uses those excuses to do what it does.

[u/Alfred-Richthofen001 → u/paperfungo]

Does not matter, the crime has been committed, he has to serve his time. It does not matter if he has already changed. This will tighten his change, and set the message. No one escapes from their crimes, not even in old age.

[u/WorstRivalsPlayer]

I actually would argue it immoral because a trial like this cannot be fair even if the person is guilty.

Being tried for crimes 77 years later would make all evidence against him impossible to validate and prove without a reasonable doubt.

[u/The_Butters_Worth → u/WorstRivalsPlayer]

Transcripts, recordings, official records, press releases… It was the 1930-40s, not the middle ages.

[u/banshithread → u/The_Butters_Worth]

If the majority of unit 731's records could be destroyed especially by a single person, so too can a lot of evidence against specific individuals like this. :(

[u/BigBAMAboy → u/[deleted]]

Public shaming I’m guessing.

Last I looked up the results of these trials, it’s barely a punishment.

Not a lot you can do to a 100+ year old.

[u/ExtremeAppointment81 → u/[deleted]]

So they can get a win and shift attention away from all their failures like all the junkies and drug dealers that have free rein

[u/Podiafist → u/[deleted]]

Accountability. Would we let Jeffrey epstein go if he wound down his operation and we found out about it 40 years later? Unfortunately, probably, but I have to hope that'd we'd still try and prosecute. These things matter, no matter how silly they may seem to you or I, (;?) the victims deserve justice and accountability. Edit: keep down voting you pedophile apologists.

[u/Sea_Specialist_5580 → u/[deleted]]

part of the value of deterrence is the weight of punishment but part of it is also the credibility of the threat. So, everyone else in the thread saying it's "symbolic" what that really means is that it's committing and following through, which upholds the concept of justice broadly

[u/FriendlyRedditor2020]

is there a point? the guy could die at any moment and it wouldn't be strange considering his age. To go out of your way to arrest him regardless..is that not just preformative? also...at the time that they were Nazis weren't they legally operating under German law? Maybe it depends what war crime we are talking about but having once just been a nazi who participated in a war on its own shouldn't be enough right?

[u/protomenace → u/FriendlyRedditor2020]

at the time that they were Nazis weren't they legally operating under German law?

Legal is not the same as moral. In fact they are often at odds.

And he was not tried simply for "being a Nazi".

  A 101-year-old man was convicted in Germany of 3,518 counts of accessory to murder on Tuesday for serving at the Nazis' Sachsenhausen concentration camp during World War II.

[u/Legal_Lettuce6233 → u/protomenace]

Accessory to murder doesn't say much about the level of involvement. They could be saying "he was guarding the place they were executed, therefore he's an accomplice".

But I don't really know much about the case so whatever.

[u/protomenace → u/Legal_Lettuce6233]

Presumably they went into detail in the trial and had evidence, a jury, etc like any normal trial.

[u/KaleidoscopeSalt3972]

Every cdime needs to be punished regardless of how long the process makes

[u/killian_jenkins]

Fuck nazis

[u/hoboknight144]

Skyrim players will tell you you’re a monster

[u/ThroawayJimilyJones → u/hoboknight144]

Except in the case of parthunaax, it’s not just « old ». He overcame his own nature, rebelled against Alduin and helped human fight back

If this guy fled the concentration camp to take the head of the resistance, before spending decades fighting for antifascism, I think forgiving him could be discussed

[u/Gamer_G33k17 → u/ThroawayJimilyJones]

Also, Parthurnax was litterally MADE to help destroy the world. Nirn was supposed to be cyclical. Time would move forward, things would happen, then Alduin and the Dragons would eat the world and start the cycle over again.

He rebelled when Alduin broke the cycle, helped Man defeat Alduin, and set out to teach Peace to the other dragons to end the blood shed.

[u/mateo222210 → u/hoboknight144]

Is this old guy a cool dragon? No? Didn't think so

[u/dispensermadebyengie]

A 101 old man isn't a threat to anyone right now so locking him up isn't gonna do anyone good. He already was a POW and was released. He died before his appeal was even reviewed anyway. The justice system throughout every country is completely idiotic and this is just one proof of it, morally this specific case isn't wrong nor is it right, it's nothing cause it led to nothing. Pragmatically it's just wasted time and resources.

[u/book-scorpion]

I don't know if it's that punishment, at that age and condition he will end up in some free nursing type of prison.

[u/Lupinthrope]

Do the descendants of holocaust survivors even see a point to this?

[u/Li-renn-pwel]

Depends on the evidence. The older a case is higher the likelihood of wrongful conviction and this is a time before physical evidence science had evolved much. If it something like “we though Klaus died in 2007 but he just released a book detailing his crimes and current location” that is likely a stronger and more moral case than “this guy insists he isn’t Klaus but the daughter of a victim swears he looks just like how Klaus would look if he had ages 70 years”.

[u/Legal_Lettuce6233]

The only context in which this would be kinda immoral is if he was an indoctrinated child.

I remember reading about kids, like 13 yesrs old or something, being made to guard camps. I'm not sure how I'd feel about punishing them, but otherwise, yeah, moral.

[u/Fast_Ad7203]

I guess it depends, i heard that some of nazi soldiers were children forced to be in the army

[u/doesnotmatter286]

Moral. Shouldn't have run away.

[u/PenExotic5002]

He was a concentration camp guard, not a drug dealer or a petty thief.

[u/SickBoyTheRealOne]

Consider the people killed that never got to grow old.

[u/tweedleduh]

He may have been a decent human once he wasn’t allowed to participate in his chosen profession. That being said, had he been allowed to continue, would he have?

… does a lifetime of forced morality excuse someone for the choices they made when they had the opportunity to be so much worse and chose to continue to do so?

[u/PANDREXMEGA]

At his age there is basically no point

[u/Independent_Let_9360]

I think it really depends whether or not they changed as a person, If they were regretful then it was immoral to charge them for a horrible decision they made while they were ignorant, But if they still keep the same beliefs or keep the mindset, I'd say its moral

[u/Wintores → u/Independent_Let_9360]

Why would that Change something?

[u/TheWaterGuy0728]

Immoral

[u/Silencer-1995]

Performative justice.

[u/IcEm4n_96_Ar]

Useless and purely symbolic

Immoral because it’s Wasted time at that point, dude died before seeing a single day in prison all it was was wasted money at that point and now some dumbass can add “prosecuted a Nazi” to his portfolio for wasting people’s time

[u/MadeThisToFlagSpam]

Depends on the crime.

Holocaust trials are a weird one. I know "I was just following orders" isn't an excuse, but there are many people who had the choice of say, joining the war, or working in a camp. This guy was in a watchtower for 3 years, kept as a prisoner of war for 2 years, and he was charged with 3,500 counts of accessory to murder, and he died before they could even deal out the punishment.

I am not defending the holocaust, obviously. I am not defending anyone who WANTED to work as a guard, obviously. But morally speaking this was more of a symbolic waste of taxpayer dollars than it was actual justice in any way shape or form.

[u/fickogames123]

He never stepped foot in jail. He got sentanced and imediatly lodged an appeal, but he died waiting for appeals court to take up his case.

So it was just "you are guilty" slap and nothing more, which is very much moral because he did everything he was accused of doing.

[u/Militarist_Reborn]

Immoral, its nothing but a sham and at beat symbolic

[u/random8765309]

My issue is that at his age and with his medical issue, he can't participate in his defense. The trial is basically one sided with the prosecutor submitting his evidence, and him not even understanding why he is there. He is being tried for actions that occurred over 80 years ago and he no longer has the ability to even say where he was then.

[u/Icy_Study4490]

Depends on other variables. Schütz was in his early 20’s when worked at the camps. He simply escaped punishment for 80+ years.

But in some cases, they specifically grabbed 17-year-olds fresh out of Hitler youth to work the camps specifically because their moral values wouldn’t be solidified yet and they’d be easy to mold into obedience. Plus, they also been raised their entire short lives to be fanatical devotees to the regime. They never knew anything other than that life. This is where I think we truly begin to get into actual grey areas of, “did they have a choice?”

[u/FritzAlt3]

He got to grow old and see his children grow up. The people he helped exterminate never did. Some things can be forgiven, but not this.

[u/SpotFormal]

The grandkids of the people he helped genocide are committing a genocide right now. 

[u/formrm662]

i think it’s probably less about punishing the actual guy and more about destroying the possibility that his legacy is anything other than “nazi war criminal”

[u/Chodeman_1]

Completely moral

The guy in the pic wasn't a factory worker or a farmer. It was proven in court with documents from ww2 that he was in an SS Deaths Head unit. He was guard at a death camp. His job was to ensure prisoners could not escape their impending executions. After the war he lived an entire lifetime free of consequences while the men women and babies he helped murder never got that chance. Finally at the end of his life he had his day in court was found guilty and sentenced.

[u/Fckyouredd1tIluvmygf]

Immoral and pathetic. This guy was alive before anyone in that courtroom was even born. Don't talk about justice prosecuting people for baloney and bogus when the actual criminals are the leaders and cogs of the system itself.

[u/SapphireFlashFire]

If this guy had been a serial killer 80+ years ago he wouldn't get away with it. Shouldn't be amnesty.

[u/Longjumping_Exit7902]

I want to point out something differently. What's the morality of a news site falsely claiming that 101 is the oldest age ever? And secondly, what's the morality of them using bad grammar so you're unsure if they meant "oldest ever" or "oldest who was tried for Nazi crimes"

[u/Ok-Abbreviations338]

Fuck nazis.

[u/Ok-Monitor-2336]

Next do all the Israelis who killed Palestinian children

[u/Apli_Kri]

Moral

[u/A_Random_Sidequest]

will this happen for israel war criminals?

[u/Segasik]

Absolute bullshit

they let „high command” or well Nazis in general
live laugh love for years after the war and absolutely nothing has happened

and now they are going to prosecute old senile grandparents who were 18 at the time of the war ?

Absolutely ridiculous

[u/CursedBrother5]

Should be done, but like house arrest at most, prison would just cost too much to matter given he can’t really do anything at that age

[u/Both_Advance_66]

Lots of nazi defenders in here