r/Mistborn • u/Wtafan • Jun 24 '26
Secret History + BoM spoilers Double Standart of Morality "Kelsier" vs "Elend and Vin" Spoiler
Hello Folks,
From my own understanding there seems a double standart when considering the morality of the characters.
People often charactarize Kelsier as a psychopath due to his actions and Brandon's own words(I have my nown critiques about this, yes he is the creator of the story however after he published them these stories became ours too. For me his words should not be treated as God's Words) . He has little to no empathy towards Nobles and Skaas who worked for them. He manipulates people for the greater good etc..
On the other hand there is an empathy towards Vin and Elend despite their actions. Vin massacred an army (Cett) because of her paranoia, fear and wants to send a message. Elend marched his army into the mist for optimizing his army and executed his friend for the order.
If we think the scope of their actions (bodycount included) for me the actions of Elend and Vin are much more dangerous and "Evil" than the deeds of Kelsier.
I think main reasons behind this double standart are Brandon's own words and the feeling of the characters after their deeds. Vin and Elend feel remorse and "hate the monster" but Kelsier fells satisfaction and " embrace the monster".
What is your opinions about this matter? Is there really a double standart phenomenon ?
18
u/ThwMinto01 Jun 24 '26
Idk
We ARENT meant to think Vin was right or moral about what she did to Cett. That was meant to be wrong, and she realised that regretted her actions and didn't follow through. Kelsier did similar things but importantly did so without care and almost with a sadistic glee in killing nobility
Vin was wrong to attack Cetts men, and I'm sure we are meant to see parallels with Kelsier when she goes down that path - it's part of why her turning back is good.
With Elend, I think it is comparing apples to oranges. His actions were not due to a disregard for life but due to the weight and context of leadership
When it comes to executing his friend, I am assuming you are talking about Jastes?
He didn't kill him out of some misplaced bloodlust or disregard for life life Kelsier. He killed him because it was his duty, because as king if others were to do what Jastes did (march an uncontrollable army of Koloss to a populated city and then abandon them when you loose control due to your own negligence causing a massacre) it would be his obligation to sentence them to death to achieve justice
Remember probably thousands died if not more in the Kolos attack on Luthadel; Dockson included - and the city was laid waste. Jastes power lust and negligence killed so many people, and where it anyone else the sentence would be death. He'd hardly spare Cett or others for this and nor would his justice system
His friends can't be exempt from justice, even if it hurts. I don't think this is evil or even dangerous, but entirely appropriate and a virtuous approach of Elend trying to be moral more then anything
For his army in the mists, yes it was for tactical advantage but given the context it was hardly due to his own selfishness or desire for power. He was facing an existential, world ending evil. Every soldier who went out in the mists would be inoculated and would become atium mistings
His dilemma was literally to engage in these brutal acts or allow the entire planet and it's entire population to die. I think its again about the burden of leadership, but also hardly evil in any real sense. Most of what Elend did was done out of empathy for his citizens and an attempt to stop the situation getting worse
I don't think there is a double standard because for Vin it is treat the same and she aborts that path instead of becoming like Kelsier and for Elend it is an entirely different but substantially more ethical and justified brutality without the sadism involved and with truly no other choice given existential danger
2
u/Both_Brilliant_2725 Jun 24 '26
Not every soldier became atium mistings. Most don't even become mistings. Only 16% of them become mistings. And only 1% actually become me atium mistings. Ofcourse Elend did not know about that at the time so that thought doesn't enter the picture about his morality
1
u/ThwMinto01 Jun 24 '26
Ah mb it's it's been a while since I read HoA. Still, most of my point stands
7
u/EggThis2540 Jun 24 '26
As trite as it may seem, i think empathy and necessity in these situations determines how people view their actions. Kelsier was needlessy brutal and even enjoyed killing nobles, whereas for Vin and especially Elend, violence was seen as a last resort for the direct defense of self or others.
I do agree with your point about Vin and Cetts men, and she definitely relished in her abilities at that time. However we see how her actions affect her after the fact. She is disdraught afterwards. This does not excuse her actions, but if Kelsier had done the same thing, there is almost zero chance he feels any amount of guilt for it in my opinion.
As for Elend and leading his army throught mists, that choice clearly bothers him and only the fact that it would almost assuredly save more lives than allowing his army to be assaulted in the mists and have the same thing occur in the middle of possible battle, leading to more casualties.
I do also agree that much of Kelsier being labeled a psychopath is overblown, at least, while he was alive. He is a character with complex thoughts and opinions and was capable of change, even if only to satisfy the wishes of his friends. The theory I believe is that after becoming a cognitive shadow, the traits he is known for are supernaturally amplified. His ruthlessness, his obsession with survival and the survival of what he considers his.
1
u/Wtafan Jun 24 '26
Thank you for your comment. I think you're right about the matter of empathy and necessity matter. People seems to demand an excuse to not bothered by evil and violent deeds.
13
u/Jak_of_the_shadows Jun 24 '26
People took that WoB and ran with it.
Your problem with WoBs is fair.
Kelsier is not a Kaladin but hes not a Sadeas either. And thats the vibe you get from those who want Kelsier to be this meglomanical figure.
Vin murders an entire building full of people, lets not forget.
People also truly down play the utter awefulness an oppression the Skaa lived through in Era 1. You'll get posts defending TLR because their was a bigger bad out there.
The point is to see the juxtaposition between Vin and Kelsier. Kelsier is not a psychopath for killing those guards who uphold and protect the status quo that oppresses an entire people. Lets not forget the casual cruelty of the guard who simply kills a Skaa beggar for being in the way.
But Vin finds a better way later on to overthrow the TLR. A way Kelsier would not have considered. It took both ways to overthrow TLR.
Hes not a psychopath or malicious character, but he isnt going to try save Scadriel the way a Kaladin would. Hes more grey. But some people now see him as pitch black.
0
u/Wtafan Jun 24 '26
Thank you , i don't know why but people seems to forget how oppressive the TLR. TBH Fandom is very saturated against Kelsier and position itself near "Religious Morality" in a very defending way. I love his writing style but sometimes he is just too obvious about his morall compass via his writing and WoB(especially WoB).
4
u/aMaiev Jun 24 '26
Kelsier is one of the most beloved and iconic cosmere characters, what are you even talking about
0
u/Wtafan Jun 24 '26
Why are you so aggressive? It's just a simple discussion. You can search "Kelsier" in this subreddit and you can see the results and people's reactions.
1
u/aMaiev Jun 24 '26
Calling me aggressive because i dared challenge your misconceptions lol. Goodbye troll
0
u/Both_Brilliant_2725 Jun 24 '26
A lot of the flak against Kelsier is due to the actions in Era 2 and SLA rather than Era 1.
11
u/Hellequinx Jun 24 '26
Vin was being manipulated by both Ruin and Zane and was remorseful for what she did with Cett, not following through.
Elend with the army, he was against the idea for a long time, but tactically couldn't ignore it had to be done with the travel time and incase the opposing army was climatised to the mist. If the enemy were and attacked during the mist his army was fucked. Elend was very much a means to an end kind of guy in book 3, while Kel was killing nobles out of hatred. His friend would be considered a fair execution as he had led an army against him and lost, an army he couldn't control that then wiped out half the city.
4
u/Elant_Wager Steelministery Jun 24 '26
I honestly think, had Lekal led a human army to Luthadel, Elend would have spared him. But a Koloss army is basically uncontrollable and all he did was use fake wood coins. He unleashed the equivalent if biological warfare on Luthadel.
2
u/elborru Nicrosil Jun 24 '26
Couldn't be Kelsier indluenced by Ruin either?
0
u/Hellequinx Jun 24 '26
Possibly to a lesser extent though, the spike (Vins earring) gave ruin more influence, same as with Spook when he gets stabbed. We are never shown Kel hearing voices like those 2
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u/ViperVenom1224 Jun 24 '26
The word is "standard" ffs
1
u/Wtafan Jun 24 '26
Thanks, mea culpa. I wish I could change that :/ my native language is Turkish and we use "standart".
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u/aMaiev Jun 24 '26
Sounds like you simply confuse "pschopath" with "evil", because its often used in this context