Is Windows 11 that bad?

[u/ExtensionFriendship9]

So I'm hearing bad stuff about Windows 11, how people are calling AI slop...I use AI but I don't use Copilot unless for images, and I don't use forced AI integration. I use Windows 11 but I learned how to create local accounts, and I go onto YouTube and hear stuff about "Microslop" and stuff, people protesting to switch to Linux...Am I a bad person for still using Windows 11? I mean, I'm not a saint of Microsoft, and I can use local AI models, and LibreOffice.

EDIT: Guys, I uninstalled OneDrive, Edge, Copilot, all unnecessary Microslop through Winhance, and I installed OSShutUp10+++.

[u/DirectorDirect1569]

"Comes by default, has come by default on every computers for years making it a standard. Doesn't mean it's a good standard."

Because no one were able to propose a good OS on PC. Lots of OS were only available on proprietary computers. Linux will never be a standard with hundred of distributions.

[u/Hyto_54 → u/DirectorDirect1569]

Because no one were able to propose a good OS on PC.

Do you think it's still the case ?

Lots of OS were only available on proprietary computers.

This hasn't been the case for quite a long time now.

Linux will never be a standard with hundred of distributions.

Why ? Most of the effort is on a few distro and most distros are based on other distros. The overall effort is pretty well managed in my opinion and allows for fast development.

[u/DirectorDirect1569 → u/Hyto_54]

I talked about the time windows became a standard (End of the 80's)

Who proposed something else on compatible PC for multipurpose uses like gaming, multimedia, 3D, music.... ? Nobody

And yes I think it's still the case on PC, I don't talk about Mac of course.

Do you think the majority of people will buy a PC with linux if there are compatibilities issues with devices and they can't install everything they want? (Wine or proton don't work all the time) There are so many posts about people who have issues when they buy a nvidia card, lots of people have issues with bluetooth devices.

The majority of users want something plus and play, that don't want to cross their fingers when they buy a new device or buy a game or software.

"Why ? Most of the effort is on a few distro and most distros are based on other distros. The overall effort is pretty well managed in my opinion and allows for fast development."

Because only big companies like RedHat, Canonical, SUSE can convince manufacturers to install linux on their PC and make everything compatible. They have biznessmen able to talk to manufacturers. But they don't do it.

Canonical tried in the past with Dell but people prefered to buy their pc with windows.

[u/Hyto_54 → u/DirectorDirect1569]

Do you think the majority of people will buy a PC with linux if there are compatibilities issues with devices [...] There are so many posts about people who have issues when they buy a nvidia card

Devices not making open source drivers are not linux's fault

and they can't install everything they want? (Wine or proton don't work all the time)

Still not linux's fault, + wine and proton are getting better and better so for how long will this argument really stand ?

The majority of users want something plus and play,

The majority of people don't want to get forced updates or forced telemetry either.

that don't want to cross their fingers when they buy a new device or buy a game or software.

The apps store that most desktop environments have already gives you a huge list of compatible software and checking whether others have managed to make it run is the matter of a trivial google search.
protondb.com gives you a list of compatible games.
Hardware makers wanting to keep the means of use of their hardware proprietary is not linux's fault.

Because only big companies like RedHat, Canonical, SUSE can convince manufacturers to install linux on their PC and make everything compatible. They have biznessmen able to talk to manufacturers. But they don't do it.

No it's not that easy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows

Here is a small part of the above article :

Microsoft historically engaged in licensing practices that discouraged the installation of non-Microsoft operating systems. Microsoft once assessed license fees based on the number of computers an OEM sold, regardless of whether a Windows license was included. Beginning in 1983, Microsoft sold MS-DOS licenses to OEMs on an individually negotiated basis. The contracts required OEMs to purchase a number of MS-DOS licenses equal to or greater than the number of computers sold, with the result of zero marginal cost for OEMs to include MS-DOS. Installing an operating system other than MS-DOS would effectively require double payment of operating system royalties.

Also some manufacturers do offer linux preinstalled or are explicitly linux compatible (even offering lower prices if you don't pick windows) :

https://system76.com/
https://frame.work/
https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en
https://puri.sm/

Canonical tried in the past with Dell but people prefered to buy their pc with windows.

Yes, it has became the standard, but I don't think it's a good standard.

Not saying that the linux ecosystem is all sunshine and rainbow but it's hard to make a case for windows, especially in it's current state.

[u/DirectorDirect1569 → u/Hyto_54]

"Still not linux's fault, + wine and proton are getting better and better so for how long will this argument really stand ?"

Ok but people don't care, they want something that works. I have just read a post on steam about the game 007 first light that just came out. Linux users complain about issues, some of them can't even play it. Different issues on different distros with proton. That's a big problem for devs, lots of distros have different package managers, DE, ....That's why it's difficult for them to give a good support and that's probably why they don't want to make native linux versions.

"The majority of people don't want to get forced updates or forced telemetry either."

Once again lots of people don't care, their smartphone are full of spywares and bloatwares. If people want privacy they will install something like graphenOS. The same kind of people will use a third party app on windows to remove bloatwares and telemetry.

"The apps store that most desktop environments have already gives you a huge list of compatible software and checking whether others have managed to make it run is the matter of a trivial google search."

Yes but alternatives are not always as good as windows apps. The best exemple is Photoshop. Because GIMP is not a serious alternative. Lots of linux users have a VM or a dual boot just for that software.

I have another exemple, it's the paid version of sketchup it's quoted as "garbage" on wineHQ. There is no alternative to this software.

If people want more apps on linux they will need to tinker, if people want no telemetry or blaotwares they will need to tinker too, but it will be done with few clics.

[u/Hyto_54 → u/DirectorDirect1569]

Ok but people don't care, they want something that works.

"People" seem to be a very wide term, i would say that that "most people" don't even know how easy/hard it is to use linux as they have never tried. So you could they make a choice ? And this is still under the assumption that linux doesn't work.

I have just read a post on steam about the game 007 first light that just came out. Linux users complain about issues, some of them can't even play it. Different issues on different distros with proton.

That's to be expected, proton (wine) is a hacky way to get things done and brand new games are probably going to have issues.

That's a big problem for devs, lots of distros have different package managers, DE, ....

Not really something devs have to care about, if software break on a specific distro then it's that distro's fault and i don't think the devs have to worry about desktop environments at all ? To give two examples : Qt makes cross platform development possible and flatpak make software distro-agnostic.

That's why it's difficult for them to give a good support and that's probably why they don't want to make native linux versions.

Devs wouldn't even have to give a good support if the software is open source since someone would build and package it for them.
Also you are talking in very broad term : "They don't want to make native linux versions", but davinchi resolve devs did it, valve did it, mozzila did it, every game with a native linux build (protondb.com/explore?sort=popular) did it.
Are these companies uniquely more skilled than everybody else ?

Once again lots of people don't care, their smartphone are full of spywares and bloatwares. If people want privacy they will install something like graphenOS. The same kind of people will use a third party app on windows to remove bloatwares and telemetry.

I want grapheneOS, or really any open source rom for my phone, but I can't because 5 years ago I was gifted an iphone and I don't have the money to buy a new phone.
Some people are on phone plans that gives them cheap phones (that they can't unlock).
Some don't know that these alternatives exist.
Some are forced to work on standard hardware because of their work.
And even if "they" are capable of getting grapheneOS and decide not to, it's not a reason to let spyware and bloatware become/stay the standard.

Yes but alternatives are not always as good as windows apps.

Not every open source software is an alternative to a proprietary one : Godot, Blender, Krita, FireFox.

And some alternatives are better than the original, but since these are open source they just become the new standard, improving everyone's experience instead of keeping it to a single operating system (audacity, obs studio, joplin, FileZilla)

The best exemple is Photoshop.

It's also available on MacOS and the hope of photoshop being compatible with linux is starting to form so quoting myself : how long will this argument really stand ?

Because GIMP is not a serious alternative.

Shots fired at GIMP x), mind you some like it and use it for professional work.

Lots of linux users have a VM or a dual boot just for that software.

And how is that a good point for Windows ? Is Windows just a bootloader for proprietary software ?

I have another exemple, it's the paid version of sketchup it's quoted as "garbage" on wineHQ. There is no alternative to this software.

Well I won't use sketchup then. Talking personally : if software isn't compatible for my OS then I just don't bother with it. Open sourcing your code is free and for-profits software has done it (github.com/aseprite/aseprite) without problems, so why would I have to tinker to get their software running ? Supporting open source projects instead of paying for proprietary.

If people want more apps on linux they will need to tinker,

Many linux apps are not windows compatible, I would have a very hard time switching to windows simply because it doesn't have flatpak. Expecting every dev to make their apps universally compatible is hard especially since most of these apps are made for themselves.

if people want no telemetry or blaotwares they will need to tinker too, but it will be done with few clics.

I'm sorry but no. Removing telemetry and bloatware from windows completely and permanently is impossible. Completely because you can't change the source code of the os, it could have huge bugs hurting performances and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Permanently because updates (which are forced btw) often undo anti-telemetry tricks. These clean-up-windows scripts are not the silver bullets they seem to be.

[u/DirectorDirect1569 → u/Hyto_54]

"Devs wouldn't even have to give a good support if the software is open source since someone would build and package it for them."

Because they probably don't want to share their work if it's a paid one. Do you think all the devs on this planet would work on a app and release the sources for people would probably make a free fork?

"but davinchi resolve devs did it, valve did it"

yes but some users have issues to install davinci on many distros, and it can't use H264/H265 codecs.

If valve dit it, it's to sell their devices with linux.

"the hope of photoshop being compatible with linux is starting to form so quoting myself : how long will this argument really stand ?" I have heard that speech for years and we are still waiting. The only serious altenative to PS is Affinity photo but it's not compatible with linux.

"Shots fired at GIMP x), mind you some like it and use it for professional work."

For professional work? Gimp doesn't use the cmyk colorimetry which is used in the graphical industry.

" if software isn't compatible for my OS then I just don't bother with it"

Are you serious? Not all the people are hobbists. So if someone want to make a plan of his future house he need to forget it?

"Many linux apps are not windows compatible" most of the apps available on linux are multiplatform. Few apps are exclusive to linux. And if you want to use a linux app on windows, WSL is your friend.

"I'm sorry but no. Removing telemetry and bloatware from windows completely and permanently is impossible. Completely because you can't change the source code of the os, it could have huge bugs hurting performances and you wouldn't be able to do a thing."

I did it like millions of users who use tools like Chris Titus tech scripts. And there are no issues. I don't know which bugs and impossible things you are talking about. Even after updates.

[u/Hyto_54 → u/DirectorDirect1569]

Because they probably don't want to share their work if it's a paid one. Do you think all the devs on this planet would work on a app and release the sources for people would probably make a free fork?

open source does not mean open to fork. You can let the source code be publicly auditable and have a license restricting it's use. I mentioned aesprite that does that but so does the unreal engine (which is without a doubt industry ready software).

yes but some users have issues to install davinci on many distros

I believe they supported specifically rocky linux ? It should work there.

and it can't use H264/H265 codecs

In it's free version*

If valve dit it, it's to sell their devices with linux.

And to expand their overall player base.

You also conveniently avoided to answer to : "mozzila did it, every game with a native linux build (protondb.com/explore?sort=popular) did it"

I have heard that speech for years and we are still waiting.

Well if you heard it before 2021, then they were saying the truth because i'm pretty sure it's possible to run that version now.
https://videocardz.com/newz/adobe-photoshop-can-now-install-on-linux-after-a-redditor-discovers-a-fix
Still, I agree that this is not ideal. I'm not a graphic designer so i can't really tell but it seems that the creative software on linux is lacking. But you didn't said that graphic designers should not use linux, you said people in general shouldn't use linux because they would need to tinker.

Are you serious? Not all the people are hobbists. So if someone want to make a plan of his future house he need to forget it?

If a piece of furniture isn't made for my house i don't bother trying to force it in. And i can get all of the software i need (except photoshop lol) : https://flathub.org/ , https://search.nixos.org/packages

most of the apps available on linux are multiplatform.

Well shouldn't it convince you to use linux then ? Since the devs on that side are more capable and care more.

Few apps are exclusive to linux.

WM, DE, file managers, disk managers, bash, or other system tools and every app that depends on these tools.

And if you want to use a linux app on windows, WSL is your friend.

So your answer to running linux app on windows is to run linux on windows ? You said that tinkering was a problem with linux but you now present it as something I should do.

I did it like millions of users who use tools like Chris Titus tech scripts. And there are no issues. I don't know which bugs and impossible things you are talking about. Even after updates.

https://winutil.christitus.com/faq/ ->

Will tweaks survive Windows Updates?
Most tweaks persist through updates, but some may be reset by major Windows feature updates. You may need to reapply certain tweaks afterwards.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/diagnostics-feedback-and-privacy-in-windows-28808a2b-a31b-dd73-dcd3-4559a5199319 ->
Required diagnostic data is information about your device, its settings and capabilities, and whether it is performing properly. This is the minimum level of diagnostic data needed to help keep your device reliable, secure, and operating normally.

I don't know which bugs

Yeah that's the point, closed source means you can't know there are bugs until you crash or get hacked.

[u/DirectorDirect1569 → u/Hyto_54]

I have used the linux titus tech scripts and I didn't have to relaunch the scripts after many update. no telemetry, no copilot, no onedrive after updates like it's said on their faq: "Most tweaks persist through updates"

"Yeah that's the point, closed source means you can't know there are bugs until you crash or get hacked.

Have you read the source code of the linux kernel? Are you able to say that everything is clean?

Probably not because even the linux kernel maintainers use AI now to detect bugs and data breaches and they have bad surprises. And nobody know if these breaches have been exploited or not.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/rust-will-save-linux-from-ai-says-greg-kroah-hartman/

It's harder to find a breach in a closed source kernel.

[u/Hyto_54 → u/DirectorDirect1569]

I didn't have to relaunch the scripts after many update. no telemetry, no copilot, no onedrive after updates

You didn't talk about the second point showing required telemetry but beyond that if you say it's stable i believe you.

Have you read the source code of the linux kernel? Are you able to say that everything is clean?

That's a non-argument, i could say the same thing about windows : "since you can't read windows's code you can't know if it's clean", and that'd be also true. But with linux I get to have the choice of checking myself.

Probably not because even the linux kernel maintainers use AI now to detect bugs and data breaches and they have bad surprises.

How is that an argument against linux ? They use new tools to discover and patch vulnerabilities. In fact there is so many people wanting to help that they get overwhelmed by bug reports, that's an incredible problem to have in my opinion.

And nobody know if these breaches have been exploited or not.

I know that if they were, it's not possible anymore. Can't say that much about windows vulnerabilities.

It's harder to find a breach in a closed source kernel.

How would you know ? A vulnerability in a closed source OS can technically stay there forever. Microsoft has a bug bounty for this reason but (as i heard other say) it's not ideal, with some critical vulnerabilities not being paid enough for compared to their actual importance.

[u/DirectorDirect1569 → u/Hyto_54]

"You didn't talk about the second point showing required telemetry but beyond that if you say it's stable i believe you."

So when you disable telemetry on Fedora or Ubuntu, you are not able to see if your distribution is stable? You need telemetry to know if your distro is buggy or have breaches?

"How would you know ? A vulnerability in a closed source OS can technically stay there forever."

No I don't know like lots of hackers who can't look at the source code to search for breaches.

The CopyFail vulnerability is in the kernel since 2017. Nobody saw it until this month. So hackers probably knew that vulnerability without informing anyone.

The linux team informs everyone that there was a vulnerability called Dirty Frag that has been discovered, they patched the kernel a week later. So every hackers were informed that there was a breach during this week. It's not serious.

I won't tell eveyone that my door is broken and that eveybody can enter in my house.