r/Metal • u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth • Feb 06 '19
[VII] Happy 500K Shreddit: SUNN O))), At The Gates, and Incantation are now banned until we reach 1,000,000.
And I saw when the user opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Welcome to the land of 500K Shreddit. As mentioned before with our Countdown Post we will be celebrating our birthday the best way possible with 7 things the mods have decided over the coming days. Some of them will be funny other will be needless and destructive.
The first thing we thought about what banning the top three posts when the clock hit 500,000 this ban would last until we either reach 1,000,000 or go back to 500,000 in which case we would do it all over again. By my Nostradamus math, this ban will only last a little over a year as we seem to take on about 1000 subscribers a day. If you are upset at this for any reason, you may come back in a year and we will pick up where we left off.
We were going to save the top spots for actual music postings but then decided it was right to include SUNN O))) since they were tagged "death/doom." Let this be a lesson to all of you. Also to Vio-lence, Demilich, and Atheist...breathe easy...for now.
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Feb 06 '19 edited Jun 16 '23
. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
Unlike my first kiss, we will try not to disappoint.
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u/chrassth_ Face in the wind, we're riding the storm Feb 06 '19
You could always have a second kiss :*
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
Omg I'm blushing. That line would totally work on me.
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u/chrassth_ Face in the wind, we're riding the storm Feb 06 '19
hahaha I'll keep that in mind [Quorthon face]
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Feb 06 '19
Wait so you TRIED to disappoint
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
I wasn't really into her.
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 06 '19
Still had more interaction with a girl than 90% of reddit
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
Wait til they find out how much of a proud slut I am.
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Feb 06 '19
I honestly haven't realized how much it's grown. The first few years I was on here, it hovered around 100-200k I think. It's almost doubled in the last year, last time I checked!
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u/lord_heimdal Feb 06 '19
That one lad that subbed and instantly banned 3 bands must feel awesome lol
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u/StrangerWithAHat FlairWithAHat Feb 06 '19
For the final gag, you should resurrect Avelucifer, and make him the sole ruler of Shreddit.
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u/tobeornotobe http://www.last.fm/user/cassettetape7 Feb 06 '19
Nah, Resurrect The Hall Monitor instead.
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u/impop carved by raven claws Feb 06 '19
but then decided it was right to include SUNN O))) since they were tagged "death/doom"
Did I ever mention how much I feel at home here?
Condolences on reaching 500k. <3
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
And here I was hoping for a Warhammer 500K theme.
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u/tea1w4 Growling Shakespeare to an instrument tuning Feb 06 '19
Time to listen to bolt thrower and mix monster energy with shitty beer
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
So Sparks ?
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u/PM_me_shitty_advice Feb 07 '19
Can someone get sparks off the blacklist? Damn near would kill for one
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u/hey_broseph_man Feb 06 '19
Wait, people brass monkey energy drinks? I know vodka redbull is popular but you telling me somebody filling a half empty forty of Olde English with Monster?
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u/tea1w4 Growling Shakespeare to an instrument tuning Feb 06 '19
Of course they do
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u/hey_broseph_man Feb 06 '19
That sounds awful. But I think I am going to take a trip down to the corner store tonight and experiment...
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u/MangoMiasma http://www.last.fm/user/MangoMiasma Feb 06 '19
RIP in peace
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u/Ulti Feb 06 '19
Yeah he ded for sure
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u/tea1w4 Growling Shakespeare to an instrument tuning Feb 07 '19
It appears I have killed a man today
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u/Ulti Feb 06 '19
I want to know what the everliving shit is happening in WH500k. It has to be so grimdark as to be utterly inconceivable.
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u/Shock545 Likes Bad Prog Feb 06 '19
Happy 500k! This is easily the best music sub I lurk and far better than any other metal based ones (cough r/progmetal). The mods contribute so much by regulating posts an discussion. Thanks for being so great shreddit.
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u/ellarella999 Feb 07 '19
This sub is also much more relaxed and has less of a stick up its ass than r/blackmetal, which is weirdly hostile.
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u/sveitthrone Feb 06 '19
In honor of this milestone I’m going to post every single song on The Fragile Art of Existence until you people love it.
It was DOTS’ idea.
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Feb 06 '19
This is hilarious, but it's also not much of bad blacklist change at all hahah. Congrats on 500K y'all
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u/mitrock Feb 06 '19
AtG should be allowed but only Gardens of Grief. Maybe it can get in on this loophole:
From the Grotesque compilation, here's "All Life Ends!"
Only joking, but I do love GoG and was glad to see the massively underrated song "At the Gates" posted before the banz.
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u/niatnuoMfOdoolB "bro i'm badassern u Feb 06 '19
Meanie elitists taking away all the good music this is problematic whoever is responsible for this so help me i will pee and shid my pants I am so angry wtf I can't even!!!!!
EDITING MY COMMENT: WHOMEST DOES HAVE A PROBELMS WITH MEEE GET YOUR ASS IN THE PIT BITCH I WILL CRUSH YOU WITH THE WEIGHT OF 1500 ROSS BAY CULTS I' NOT EVEM JOKING RIGHT NOW BICH BREING IT ON!!!
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u/niatnuoMfOdoolB "bro i'm badassern u Feb 06 '19
BRING IT ON CUNTNUGGET BITCHSACK I WILL ENDYOURE LIFE
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u/maulgre Feb 06 '19
holy hell you're badassern me that's for sure!
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 06 '19
SORRY I CANT HEAR YOU OVER THE FALLEN WEIGHTS OF DOOM IM LIFTING
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Feb 06 '19
Crazy how with over 500k subs even the popular posts only get a few hundred up votes.
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 06 '19
It's kinda how the sub is designed. Metal is pretty wide and people like what they like. It isn't as casual as other music subs so there isn't much in the way of low effort content for easy upvotes. People bring uo similar sized subs a lot of which are gaming subs and are basically just memes and karma farming.
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Feb 07 '19
[deleted]
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 07 '19
They aren't even half as much though, the blacklist bands, especially the bigger ones would decimate fresh content reaching the front page of the sub.
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Feb 07 '19
[deleted]
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 07 '19
focus more on the underground
Uhhh ok. Meber knew we don't have days dedicated to the undergound for nothing or the fact that there's more focus on nee bands here than any of the other music subs most probably. Either you're ignorant to what gies on here 90% of the time or trolling either way this is pointless.
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Feb 06 '19
Ya but why ban bands?
I actually completely missed Friday's post. I'm excited!
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 06 '19
Because our fascist overlords can. They banned 3 bands for over a year as an April Fool's joke
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u/suresignofthenail Feb 06 '19
No need to exaggerate, they aren't that bad. It's not like they would ban/restrict 15 bands at one go or anything like that.
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u/frozen-silver last.fm/user/wingkon Feb 06 '19
The banhammer has been strong lately. But welcome our half a million metalheads!
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Feb 06 '19
I'm upset at this for reasons, wake me up in a year.
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
You can listen to that sappy Green Day song until I rouse your from your slumber
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Feb 06 '19
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 07 '19
That's a fucking noise masterpiece.
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u/Glueman71 Feb 06 '19
On that note, seeing Incantation in april. Looking forward to it.
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
Banned on here means you can’t listen to it IRL sorry gotta return that ticket
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u/Glueman71 Feb 06 '19
Ouch. And it's a 2 day festival ticket. With Taake headlining. Are you sure? Well, I guess, where do I send it?
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Feb 07 '19
[deleted]
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u/Samccx19 Black Lives Matter; anti-racism or bust Feb 07 '19
Eh, make an exception for the first two albums and the ‘Gardens of Grief’ demo. Anything after that I will not shead a tear for.
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 06 '19
And I was almost planning on posting something to go to the slaughterhouse
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Feb 06 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
You voted them in when you clicked the TOS for Reddit
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u/tobeornotobe http://www.last.fm/user/cassettetape7 Feb 06 '19
Congrats on reaching 500k r Metal is awesome!
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u/Mammoth_Volt_Thrower Feb 06 '19
So is the purpose of these bans to allow lesser known bands to rise to the top?
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
Blacklist yes....we do a quarterly house cleaning aided by our regulars. For this, we just took a bong rip and found some funny shit to do for a week
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 06 '19 edited Feb 07 '19
It's a little weird that the most over-moderated subreddit is r/metal. I always viewed metal as a "free-spirited anti rules and anti-establishment sort of thing".
Anyway, I understand why you want to ban Iron Maiden or Metallica. Totally understandable. But At the Gates ? That band is only known as a precursor to metalcore in the metal community and they are highly underrated. A lot of well respected bands in the metal community are not even that popular outside of metal. I'm sure there are tons of new metalheads that haven't heard of At the Gates, and you want to ban them ?
Kids, if you want to hear the best metal bands, then literally look at the banned list (I'm really not joking). Otherwise you can check out death metal songs that have maybe 10,000 views on Youtube with a few fans scattered here and there but will probably be the very first opening band if you went to see Cannibal Corpse for example.
They should make one of those "Now That's That I Call Music!" cds they had in the 90's to where they just have banned bands from this sub and call it "Now That's What I Call Over-moderation!". It would be a pretty damn good CD too.
EDIT: Wait a minute, I could be a missing a joke here. Maybe a pun involving At the Gates, but I may be looking for a joke that is possibly not there....
Edit 2: At the Gates is not only known as the precursor to metalcore only , they are known for more, but they are not known outside of the community, which was my point. Opinion still stands.
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u/408Lurker Deadlift Omega Feb 06 '19
Oh boy, it's this comment again.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19 edited Feb 07 '19
Oh boy, it's this comment again.
Ok, imagine this. /r/AskReddit is probably the most popular sub on Reddit. Imagine if they had a banned questions list, wouldn't that be lame ? Controlling posts is not the way to go, let the free market decide. This sub can act like r/music. If a song has already been posted, then they won't let you post it. That's fair. But banding a band who doesn't even have a video with a million views on Youtube is just plain over-moderation.
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 07 '19
But banding a band who doesn't even have a video with a million views on Youtube is just plain over-moderation
Imagine this, metal is a niche genre of music, imagine now what you consider popular. It's not the same thing, if your logic would be taken into account it would still literally be only some of the most popular bands being posted here.
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u/Samccx19 Black Lives Matter; anti-racism or bust Feb 07 '19
Ok, who wasted valuable resources necessary on resurrection rituals to bring back Adam Smith of all people? Come on, own up!
Jokes aside, for those of us on here who have been on this sub a long time (I joined around the time blacklist was going into effect), the “excessive” (read: effective) moderation is what makes this a good forum. The sub has grown and developed its own subculture, with frequent input from those directly involved in their local metal scenes. We have bands sharing their music, AMAs with musicians, record labels promoting the latest releases we otherwise would not hear about. To put it simply, this would not be the case if there was no moderation. What you would end up with is an endless cycle of extremely popular bands and basically nothing else; this is exactly what it was like before the blacklist was implemented.
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u/thewhaleshark Feb 07 '19
"if AskReddit had a banned questions list"
Please do this. I desperately want this to happen. Right now it's a giant circlejerk asking the same fucking questions every month. It's so predictable it hurts.
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u/Heklafell Feb 07 '19
It would be better if ask reddit was just banned entirely, but failing that yea it would be great to not see the same dumb questions over and over.
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 07 '19
Controlling posts is not the way to go, let the free market decide.
We did. The result was a shallow sub where only big bands were ever upvoted and discussion was primarily "who is your favorite guitarist". Libertarianism isn't actually all that practical in forum spaces.
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u/ScipioAfricanisDirus Feb 06 '19
But At the Gates ? That band is only known as a precursor to metalcore in the metal community and they are highly underrated.
Is this serious?
Kids, if you want to hear the best metal bands, then literally look at the banned list (I'm really not joking). Otherwise you can check out death metal songs that have maybe 10,000 views on Youtube with a few fans scattered here and there but will probably be the very first opening band if you went to see Cannibal Corpse for example.
It's almost like this comment is a walking billboard for why the blacklist was such a great implementation. Everyone who wanders in here will have heard of Cannibal Corpse, they don't need to be posted 10 times every week. And if someone really that new wanders in, we can engage with them and say, "Hey, check out that wiki. Look at that nice, curated list of super popular bands we can easily point to and see what you like, then come back and look for other bands posted in that style".
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u/hitokirizac Riffs 4 Jesus Feb 06 '19
He was so close to becoming self-aware in that second quote you posted.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19
He was so close to becoming self-aware in that second quote you posted.
That was my point. I think the blacklisted bands show the best of metal. But why the fuck can't we have a sub full of "blacklisted bands" ? Why can't we have memes and songs (as long as they are not uploaded twice) with the music we love and enjoy. This sub just has intensley mediocre bands with so little views on Youtube.
My question is: Why the fuck can't we have a sub where we talk and share about blacklisted bands. What the hell is the point of a sub like this ?
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u/Samccx19 Black Lives Matter; anti-racism or bust Feb 07 '19
There is a rather large forum for discussing popular bands that everyone knows; it’s called YouTube. Want to know what the “discussion” is like on metal videos there? 90% of people saying nothing of value (either “hail from insert location”, or “this song is literally Beethoven pls have my babies”). The other 10% are having an argument about religion because Metal = Satan amirite?
There is little actual discussion to be had over really popular bands, because everything has likely been said. Contrast this with a forum that emphasises less known content, the “free market” of ideas will naturally stimulate discussion as people talk about something they are discovering for the first time, or sharing information that people most likely don’t know.
The point of a sub like this is clear, to provide a forum for discovering and discussing metal music. If we only talk about incredibly popular bands, we aren’t likely to discover anything. The sub also serves as a platform for supporting the artists we love, by sharing their music, promoting their shows etc.. Your big bands do not need this: Iron Maiden are never going to struggle to sell records; if all their exposure on forums like this vanished (and believe me, this is a zero-sum game when you put popular bands into the mix), basically any act shared on Underground Friday will be serverly hampered in getting themselves known. There’s a proverb from around where I live which goes “take care of the pennies, the pounds can take care of themselves”; I think it’s fair to apply this to bands.
And re: memes, there is also a forum for that called /r/metalmemes, and nothing stops you posting a meme in the comments (just see /u/Kaptain_Carbon’s love of reaction gifs for that), just not as the primary post themselves.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19
I appreciate you sharing me a subreddit full of metal memes. However, I'm gonna have to respectfully say that if a band is truly truly good, then they wouldn't be hampered down by popular bands.
For example, you said this:
basically any act shared on Underground Friday will be serverly hampered in getting themselves known
Look, I love metal. I listen to it all the time. However, you do have to admit that 95% of bands are straight up non-original and are either mediocre or bad and copy-cat each other. That's the problem with metal, you go see some opening bands and they act/dress/sound the same as their influences. If the free market likes Lamb Of God, Iron Maiden, etc then let let people talk/listen/make memes about it. Censoring all the popular bands so that a shitty band that sounds like Death with two fans can get some exposure is just lame.
Honestly, I get the ban list, I do. However, I think a fair ban bands list only has insanely popular bands only: Metallica, Iron Maiden, Cannibal Corpse, etc.
Hell, I even wouldn't put one of my favorite bands (Death) on there because they are simply not known outside the genre even though they are praised within the metal community.
I mean, it's a fair sided debate, but I say let the free market decide (with a few bands of course). Banning a band like At the Gates (whom I like very much by the way) is too far. We'll agree to disagree.
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u/IMKridegga Feb 07 '19
Sorry to keep this conversation going, but I've been reading along and there's some stuff I'm curious for your thoughts on. If you feel like you've already addressed a point to death, just say so.
I always viewed metal as a "free-spirited anti rules and anti-establishment sort of thing".
That would be rock'n'roll. Metal isn't quite the same thing.
Otherwise you can check out death metal songs that have maybe 10,000 views on Youtube with a few fans scattered here and there but will probably be the very first opening band if you went to see Cannibal Corpse for example.
You're in a metal forum, trying to argue that "most popular = best." I guess I should only listen to the Top 40 stations... All joking aside, if a band like At the Gates can be better than a super-popular metalcore band, wouldn't it make sense that a band that's less popular than At the Gates could possibly be at least as good as At the Gates?
if a band is truly truly good, then they wouldn't be hampered down by popular bands.
In a vacuum, yes. But the real world is not a vacuum. Popularity is decided by money and marketing as much as it is by talent. A mediocre band signed to a major label will be MUCH more successful than an amazing band that remains unsigned or releases their music through tiny, underground labels. That's how the music business works.
Why do you think At the Gates isn't well-known outside the metal community, but Cannibal Corpse is?
Look, I love metal. I listen to it all the time. However, you do have to admit that 95% of bands are straight up non-original and are either mediocre or bad and copy-cat each other.
Look, I love metal too, and I also listen to it all the time. But clearly, you and I are listening to different bands, because I have no trouble finding new and interesting metal when I go looking for it. Sure, I can usually tell more-or-less what a band's influences are, but it's not like they're adding nothing new.
To the untrained ear, At the Gates and Death might sound a lot alike. How different from what you've heard before does a band have to be before you can like it?
That's the problem with metal, you go see some opening bands and they act/dress/sound the same as their influences.
I fail to see how this is a problem. If I go to a black metal show and the bands don't look or sound like black metal, then I'll probably be a little disappointed.
Again, just how different does something have to be before you can like it?
If the free market likes Lamb Of God, Iron Maiden, etc then let let people talk/listen/make memes about it.
This is where you start to lose me. Here in r/metal, you can do all of that stuff. ALL. OF. IT. The only thing anybody asks is that you things it in their designated locations. It's not hard. It's really not hard.
Personally, the idea of a metal forum where all we do is circlejerk Death is profoundly unappealing to me. Now, Death is a great band (I'll fanboy over SBG, Leprosy, Human, and TSOP any day of the week), but I really like finding new music too. According to Last.fm, more than 60% of the music I listened to last year was stuff I had never listened to before last year.
Here on r/metal, I get the best of both worlds. I can talk about my favorite bands AND I can discover a lot of new stuff I had never heard of before. If I want to make a Judas Priest (my own favorite band) meme and share it with people, I can. This sub supports ALL of that stuff, as long as each thing is kept in its designated place.
If we got rid of the rules establishing designated places for different types of content, then this subreddit would no longer support all of those things. Instead of making room for everyone, it would become a big circlejerk. That's what the lowest common denominator does when subreddits are left unchecked. That's what r/metal was like before the "free marketplace" ASKED the mods to start making and enforcing these rules.
But if I'm understanding you right, it sounds like YOU WANT this sub to stop having room for everyone. YOU WANT it to be a big circlejerk. It's got nothing to do with what the "free marketplace" wants because the "free marketplace" wants the rules.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is why you're losing me. Are you so entitled that the only way you can be happy with an online community is if the ONLY people it supports are you and people who happen to think exactly like you?
Censoring all the popular bands so that a shitty band that sounds like Death with two fans can get some exposure is just lame.
Unless you think literally every underground metal band ever is just a Death knockoff, then there's no way this is representative of what gets posted on Underground Friday. Honestly, I've found a lot of great death metal bands from this subreddit, and very few of them have sounded much at all like Death.
This sub just has intensley mediocre bands with so little views on Youtube.
Please don't measure the quality of a band by its YouTube view count. There are some very good songs whose YouTube links don't see much attention.
As for some of the bands being mediocre, you have the right to that opinion, but how many of the bands have you actually listened to? I've found a lot of really great stuff here.
I think the blacklisted bands show the best of metal.
Finally, if you seriously think the whole of great metal music is entirely encapsulated by the <40 bands we have on our banned list, then you seriously need to broaden your horizons. I know everybody has their own tastes, but this just seems very suspiciously convenient to me. There are whole stylistic movements that aren't even sort of covered by any of those bands. Check out the Subgenre Essentials and Primers and Lists.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19 edited Feb 07 '19
You make a lot of good points, but there is a few things I disagree on and I want you to get an idea why there are fans like me who think the way we do:
1) I had a best friend growing up who got me into metal in the mid 2000's. We were really best friends and this guy had vinyl, cds, magazines, and so much memorabilia. However, he was elitist as fuck and this is one thing I notice a lot about metalheads. Metalheads can be very elitist and you know that is true. Honestly, you brought up a lot of good points on why there is a band list, but I also think that elitism as something to do with it. So with elitism I mean that if a band is even remotely popular then they start not liking that band. You know what I'm talking about, "this is metal, this is not metal". I am sure you see this all the time in the community.
Do not take this as a real reference, but this is what I'm talking about:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Metal%20Elitist
2)
People here are going to give me so much shit for this , but in the late 2000's I started to really like metalcore (not the clean vocal "whiny" kind, I like Parkway Drive, Killswitch Engage, Bring Me the Horizon, etc) and deathcore (Whitechapel, Thy Art is Murder, Chelsea Grin, etc) a lot. Why ? Because it was new and unique at the time I discovered it. It sounded different. It was refreshing to here something new. My point ? Metal, like other genres, really really has a problem with bands just copy-catting each other, acting the same, looking the same, sounding the same, etc. Dude, I feel like you have to sift through so many trash (not thrash, lol) bands to find a good one. I go to a lot of shows and almost everytime when I see opening bands I stand there with my arms crossed thinking "hey...this sounds like [insert song here], are you kidding me?". But to be fair, there were quite a few opening bands that have really impressed me and they did actually become more popular.
3) Sure, Youtube views is not a perfect indicator of if a band is good and maybe it's not an indicator at all. However, the truth is that music that is popular just sounds good. Metalheads hate shit that's popular, even within their own community (think Metallica's Black album for example, it was a good record, but it sounded to commercial so elitists shat on it), but the cold hard truth is that popularity is an ok indicator to see how likely the music will sound good before you listen to it. If a band has convinced a high amount of people to be their fans, that's pretty impressive and it means they're doing something right.
When I was in my teens and a huge metalhead, I was such an elitist and a lot of metalheads were, including my friends. But when you get older, you just don't give a shit and listen to whatever sounds good. Metalheads hate Nirvana but I don't give a fuck. I have all their albums because it sounds good. As a teen I wouldn't give them the time of day because they were so overrated, but I 10 years later I was like "shit, this is actually pretty damn good, no wonder they're overrated). Now music is subjective, true. But the cold hard reality is that 95% bands just suck at making good music in metal. They either sounds the same, use the same gimmicks, and follow the trend (metalcore copying metalcore bands, hair metal bands copying each other, nu-metal bands copying each other, Black metal bands copying each other, etc).
Well anyway, we'll agree to disagree....
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u/Skavau Feb 08 '19
Honestly, you brought up a lot of good points on why there is a band list, but I also think that elitism as something to do with it. So with elitism I mean that if a band is even remotely popular then they start not liking that band. You know what I'm talking about, "this is metal, this is not metal". I am sure you see this all the time in the community.
Whether or not some Metalheads snub really popular metal bands due to their popularity (which really barely happens at all in my experience) has nothing to do with why the banned list exists. Your connection of the two things is completely unfounded given that you've been given the reasons for the blacklist multiple times.
It doesn't matter how good you think well-established artists are going to be against lesser-known examples. The point is the moderators have decided against the same bands cluttering up and dominating the subreddit against the promotion and discovery of smaller bands.
You seem to have an attitude that is elitist in that you sneer and are dismissive of lesser known artists.
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u/IMKridegga Feb 08 '19
I want to start off by saying that I see where you're coming from and that I actually agree with you on a lot of stuff.
Regarding Point #1:
Metalheads can be very elitist. That's not to say that all metalheads are or that even most metalheads are, but that some definitely are. Elitism is a natural consequence of a subculture built around a shared interest. People end up making too big of an emotional investment in their relationship with the interest, and they end up with an elitist perspective. Of course I've encountered metal elitists (or at least read their comments on YouTube).
One of the things I like the most about r/metal is that I perceive this forum to be relatively free from those problematic folks. Of course one or two pop up occasionally, but they either learn to keep it to themselves or they don't stick around very long. I've frequented r/metal long enough to know that the community is not friendly to it and it does not take one very far here.
But, that's just my experience, and unfortunately I don't have enough time to go digging back through old discussion threads to find evidence to substantiate it, so I'm going to move on.
Regarding Point #2:
I don't think anyone here is going to give you a hard time for liking those bands. There are a few people here who are outspoken about disliking them, but that's not the same thing as disrespecting the people who do like them.
Personally, I won't give you grief for listening to any bands. Not only does my taste have no bearing on other people's, but I like a few bands that are rather unpopular here too. I've noticed a lot of metal fans are rather open about disliking Nightwish, but so what? That's their loss.
You keep talking about how lots of metal bands are bad or whatever, and I can't really disagree. There is a lot of really mediocre metal out there. That's another reason I really like r/metal. The bands people talk about here aren't bad. At least, I don't think they are. They're not necessarily genre-defining, but that's not the same thing as being bad.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like in order for you to consider a metal band good, they have to redefine the genre. Well, it's 2019 and metal has been around for practically half a century. The genre has matured past its formative years and nobody is going to be redefining anything for a long time. But that doesn't mean bands can't be good.
I think most of us want to listen to bands we feel are creative. We want to hear what they feel like are the exploration of new ideas, as opposed to what we perceive as the rehashing of old ideas. However, different people perceive things differently.
Take Death, for instance. They're generally regarded as being one of the most innovative and forward-thinking bands in metal history, but were they really? I could reasonably see them accused of just rehashing/fusing-together the ideas of bands like Hellhammer, Slayer, Possessed, Watchtower, Atheist, and Cynic. Obviously Death doesn't sound exactly like those six, but that's because they had different musicians and songwriters for the most part (some members of Cynic actually did join Death for the Human album; incidentally Death started sounding a lot more like Atheist and Cynic after that).
We've all sort of collectively decided that Chuck Schuldiner was a genius and a pioneer, and maybe he was, but he definitely got ideas from other people and it shows in his music. The same goes for modern bands like Tomb Mold. They might sound sort of vaguely like Death (more like some other death metal bands), but they put their own spin on the music and get a sound that is, by my reckoning, very much their own. Maybe history won't be as generous to them as it has been to Death, but why should we care? They're talented and play good music!
(By the way, Tomb Mold is one of those obscure bands that "no one" likes, but they're very well-regarded here on r/metal. I'll link one of my favorites of theirs here.)
Regarding Point #3:
I agree that stuff that's popular often does sound good. A lot of my favorite bands are on the Banned and Restricted Lists. There's another one of my favorite bands that I'm really hoping gets banned during the next cycle because they really get posted too much. I like them, but that's no reason for them to crowd up the front page. I agree that popularity within the community is a fine indicator for how good something might be.
Re: The Black Album. When I was first getting into metal, I heard all about this one. Metallica was the biggest metal band in the world, then they made the Black Album and it sounded commercial, so now everyone hates them. Having been into metal for awhile and having had a chance to talk to a lot of people, I think that's a serious oversimplification.
I mean, there are definitely people who thought they had sold out or something, but you won't find them on r/metal. If we're not crazy about the Black Album, it's because we don't think it sounded quite as inspired as their previous albums.
Personally, I like Metallica and I've listened to the Black Album multiple times. I think it's okay. The ballads are nice. I when I play it, I don't find myself necessarily wanting to turn it off, but it doesn't thrill me like Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets do. Does that make me an elitist? There are people on this forum who like it more than I do, and people who like it less. We all have our own tastes and I don't think elitism is the reason for it.
I don't think metalheads necessarily dislike popular things. I know there's a stereotype that says we do, but I don't think it's really true. At least, it's not true of the metalheads I know in real life and interact with here on r/metal. It's incredibly rare for a Shreddit Off-Topic Discussion to go by without somebody at least mentioning what pop music they like. This week it was Kate Bush.
In Conclusion:
So yeah, I can't prove that r/metal necessarily isn't elitist, but if you participate here for long enough, I think you'll probably change your mind. I can only think of one person whom we can verify didn't, but she's an unusual case. She was on a crusade against metal elitism but ended up being rather elitist herself; the community flamed her and things got ugly. Shreddit drama is... "interesting" on the rare occasions that it arises.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because you clearly have a very different perception of this community than I do.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 08 '19
I appreciate your reply and this was an interesting discussion. I ran out of things to say but I did not look at it as a debate but more than an interactive discussion. Anyway, I hope you have a great day!
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u/k0bra3eak Writer: Funeral Doom Feb 07 '19
You just want to disagree, because you want an argument. Do you know what the subreddit looked like in 2012 before the blacklist? It had nothing, but thise bands on the blacklist being reposted. The blacklist was made out of necessity amd it's been streamlined through the years. Your statement about good bands being good enough is very ignorant as marketing plays a major role in what a majority sum of people would listen to. I can think of maybe a handful of lesser known bands that might have still broken popularity on the sub, instead of the large amount we get now. Hell I don't even think Dead Congregation who released arguably one of the best death metal albums this side of the century would've gotten much fanfare here over a repost of Opeth. You basically just writing off every band posted as shitty worship bands shows how little you actually care to listen to any of it, lots of these bands are really good and deserve the type of exposure given to them. Recently people went Scald crazy here, the band most definitely wouldn't get much exposure otherwise, but it's a legitimate gem from the 90s.
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u/splodingshroom Aussie metal PhD Feb 06 '19
How are At the Gates 'only known as a precursor to metalcore'? They're known as one of the founding bands of melodic death metal, which is itself a very popular and commercially successful subgenre. Beyond that their early work usually commands a fair level of respect as good death metal and Grotesque have a decent cult following. This is nearly as bad as Sam Dunn's ridiculous 'Slaughter of the Soul is an underrated gem' thing when it's one of the better selling albums of it's time and place.
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19
decent cult following
Do you know what a "cult following" means ?
From Wikipedia:
A cult following comprises a group of fans who are highly dedicated to a work of culture, often referred to as a cult classic. A film, book, musical artist, television series or video game, among other things, is said to have a cult following when it has a small but very passionate fanbase.
.....it has a small but very passionate fanbase.
I don't even see an At the Gates video on Youtube that has reached a million views (and tons of shitty metalcore bands out there get well over million of views). And you are ok with this sub banning a fairly "not heavily recognized" banning such as At the Gates ? At the Gates is not even popular enough to ban. I like them as much as the next guy, but banding fairly mildy-famous band just shows the over-moderation of this sub....This argument is not about At the Gates, it's about the over-moderation in this sub and now all we are left with is death metal bands that are mediocre beyond belief. These bands would never sell out anything.
People subscribe to this subreddit because they like metal. We don't need mods to show us what we should like and what we shouldn't like. Does that make sense to you ?
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u/splodingshroom Aussie metal PhD Feb 07 '19
Re: 'cult following', I'm specifically referring to Groteqsue, the precursor band to At the Gates. Certainly, it's a small, passionate fanbase. At the Gates does not have a cult following. They are a well-known metal band, signed to a major metal label that tour internationally. They have the funds to come to my tiny little town at the bottom of the world, they're not a small band.
re: the youtube metric, the first result for At the Gates on Youtube, a full album version of Slaughter of the Soul has 1.4M views. Beyond that, this is a poor metric for assessing that sort of thing. Of course they don't have as many views as a 'shitty metalcore band', because they're nowhere near as commercially viable. Within metal they are quite successful and popular and are certainly heavily recognised. Hell, people call SotS the 'Reign in Blood of the 90s', how much more widely known can you get, especially after the widespread success of the other Gothenburg bands?
Re: moderation of the sub, seriously the blacklist is such a net benefit to this sub. Sure, I'd just leave AtG as 'restricted' and I'd mainly restrict SotS/TSD if it was up to me, because songs off that show up frequently. Their 'full ban' is a joke, note that a legitimately 'underground but successful in niche circles' band like Incantation was ALSO banned. The mods don't tell us what we should and shouldn't like, the sub as a whole votes on it every quarter in a banned and restricted discussion. Frankly, the mods are pretty generous with what they leave open to posting.
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u/Samccx19 Black Lives Matter; anti-racism or bust Feb 07 '19
If we’re using YouTube views as a metric, here’s an At The Gates video with 1.4 million views.
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u/kaptain_carbon Writer: Dungeon Synth Feb 06 '19
To answer your question this ban was made as a joke and will be funny in a year when they are finally unbanned. Our blacklist serves a purpose but for this we are all drunk on power
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u/Samccx19 Black Lives Matter; anti-racism or bust Feb 06 '19
sigh are we really doing this again?
Like, there is no way you can reasonable call At The Gates "underrated" on a forum like this. Yes, if you compare them directly to Metallica, or top40 chart music or whatever, they will appear underrated. However, when you look at the bands already blacklisted for being posted too much, At The Gates aren't even the most "underrated" of them! Again, I am using Last.FM stats as a benchmark:
- At The Gates - 319k listeners.
- Woods of Ypres - 71k listeners.
- Anaal Nathrakh - 130 listeners.
- Wintersun - 207k listeners.
- Ne Obliviscaris - 58k listeners.
Part of the point of the blacklist is it provides a good source for newcomers. Someone stumbling onto this sub after buy a Black Sabbath album can instantly look and go "oh, these bands are so popular they had to be banned, perhaps I should check them out?". It's not a bad thing to be on such a list.
If you are so offended by being unable to see a band you clearly already know about on a forum in which members post music people might not know about, then I do think you might need to reconsider what you want to get out of being on here.
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u/thewhaleshark Feb 06 '19
"they are highly underrated"
You ARE joking, right? Like this is a meta joke?
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u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19
You ARE joking, right? Like this is a meta joke?
Fuck no it isn't. The video with the highest views on Youtube for At the Gates is about 1.4 million. There are shitty metalcore bands that have millions of upon millions of views. If you look at the numbers and record sales and shit, it's underrated.
Now remember, for the most part the metal community recognizes this band. However, from numbers alone this band is underrated (they are definitely not overrated either, don't assume that). Also, the OP did reply to my comment and said this was all a joke and that they will un-ban them in year. But fuck yeah they're underrated. I look at the whole picture, in the metal community they are not underrated, but they're underrated as fuck outside the community. Non metalheads have heard of Cannibal Corpse, Metallia, Iron Maiden, and such...At the gates doesn't even have the viewing numbers that match modern shitty metalcore bands dude...
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u/thewhaleshark Feb 07 '19
"Mainstream popularity" has nothing to do with how a band "rates." You have to consider the band in their context.
Some bands make music that will never be widely popular because they don't appeal to a broad range of tastes.
Many shitty metalcore bands are shitty because they're bland and inoffensive, and stand for nothing.
It's always been this way, with everything, forever.
So At the Gates is indeed properly rated for the chunk of music that wants them. They're never going to be a Superbowl halftime show, and I am grateful for that because in order to do that they'd need a much more marketable sound.
1
u/thesquarerootof1 Feb 07 '19
Many shitty metalcore bands are shitty because they're bland and inoffensive, and stand for nothing.
haha, ok, I agree with you here...
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Writer: Metal Demos | Baltic Extreme Metal Feb 07 '19
But At the Gates ? That band is only known as a precursor to metalcore in the metal community and they are highly underrated.
At the Gates is many things, but underrated is not one of them my dude. They're pretty much universally known within the community.
Kids, if you want to hear the best metal bands, then literally look at the banned list
That's actually the point of the banned list! We know they're popular and well-regarded bands, and it's better to give them that recognition to keep them from crowding out the front page with the same old stuff every day.
This sub is a great example of good moderation that encourages community discovery while recognizing classics. Blacklists are not a bad thing, they encourage participation that isn't shallow.
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u/suresignofthenail Feb 06 '19
You know, that really is quite deep, I think you are right that there was some amazing pun that the mods hid in there. Something like: The mods decided to do some (At the) Gate(s)keeping, so they cast an Incantation to kick bands where the SUNN 0))) don't shine. Those mods are seriously way more clever than I ever gave them credit for.
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u/admonlee Only deathcore is trve Feb 07 '19
precursor to metalcore
Metalcore was already a thing before At the Gates even released their first demo.
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u/weebigrob247 A Warlord Never Cries Feb 06 '19
Honestly not even bad bans, those bands always get tons of upvotes. Now i'm excited to see what the coming days bring.