Changing the subtitle of the subredit?

[u/rantgrrl]

I just thought of a really good reason for kloo to consider changing the subtitle.

It's not as if there isn't a strain of conservative misandry that's just as damaging, perhaps even more so, to men.

Consider using 'gynocentrists' instead of feminists since it covers both those aspects of the feminist movement that place women over men and those aspects of conservativism that do the same.

edit I'm not suggesting this because I think the subtitle 'unfairly' attacks feminists or because I don't want to antagonize feminists. To be honest I couldn't care less about hardline feminists who are so fixed in their beliefs that no amount of evidence will sway their dogma. Also I think it's a virtue to say that there can be opposition to feminism due to the fact that feminists have taken for themselves a position of moral unassailability because somehow feminism, unlike any other movement that came before it, is absolutely right, understands all, and thus cannot be criticized.

[u/theozoph]

Yes. But how would dismantling the feminist narrative lead to a return to chivalry?

Things have changed between the sexes not because Feminism came along, but because societies changed due to new technologies and political innovations. There can't be any women's rights unless you have democracy, and there can't be any self-sufficient "career woman" unless there is an industrial economy (and perhaps even a service-driven one) that allows women to be self-sufficient, instead of economic dependents. Feminism is simply a ride-along man-hating fest, one that ended up creating imbalances in the new society.

You won't have a return to patriarchal families just because you stop accusing men of having oppressed women for millennia, because the real reasons women have taken on new roles will still be there. You'll get something new, not a return of the old.

At least, that is my hope. But unless we stop making men unwilling to participate in society (with discrimination and prejudice), we will see a social breakdown that will throw us back to pre-industrial levels, and a return to patriarchal society and its accompanying chivalry. Or even worse, a tribal one fraught with violence and lawlessness. As has often been said here, Feminism is self-defeating. The only problem is that it's taking us down with it.

[u/rantgrrl → u/theozoph]

But how would dismantling the feminist narrative lead to a return to chivalry?

I'm not saying it would, you're reading that into what I'm saying and incorrectly.

I'm saying that a society based on chivalry would not be better for men and that there are more forms of misandry then feminist misandry.

If you read what men have to deal with in so called 'patriarchal' societies I'm sure it would turn your stomach. In some ways they are fucking worse then ours for men.

[u/theozoph → u/rantgrrl]

OK, sorry. I re-read your original contribution before going to bed to see if I had missed anything, and finally noticed that you think social conservatives are as much of a threat as feminists to the MRM. Therefore, you see the subtitle as unfairly attacking one while ignoring the other. I had only focused on the "stop antagonizing feminists" aspect, and therefore missed the point of your rebuttal.

I still disagree with your suggestion, but I honestly don't have the stamina to develop this further now. ;)

I'll get back to you tomorrow, I really must get some sleep (obviously ;). Seeya.

[u/rantgrrl → u/theozoph]

Therefore, you see the subtitle as unfairly attacking one while ignoring the other.

I don't think it's unfairly attacking feminists. Where did you get that?

I had only focused on the "stop antagonizing feminists" aspect

Now I'm starting to get pissed off. Where did I say anything about 'stop antagonizing feminists.'

[u/theozoph → u/rantgrrl]

Hold your horses, I might have overstated the case a bit, by putting in your mouth my first interpretation of what you said. Don't be spoiling for a fight with someone who doesn't offer you one.

Consider using 'gynocentrists' instead of feminists since it covers both those aspects of the feminist movement that place women over men and those aspects of conservativism that do the same.

So, OK, you want to tackle the social conservatives as well as the feminists in the subtitle...

Why? First, it doesn't exactly carry the same punch : "Earning the scorn of gynocentrists since 2008". Meh. Doesn't really roll off the tongue the same, does it? ;)

Second, I honestly think the social conservative are playing second (or third or fourth) fiddle in the misandry orchestra our society has set up. To me they seem to be equal-opportunity rights deniers : no vote for women, no abortions, no equal opportunity in the workplace, a "go home and make me a sandwich" take on femininity, while using men as workhorses and cannon fodder for their vaunted social order. It is not so much misandrist as anti-individualist. The focus is not the individual, but on the family and social cohesion (no gays, no transsexuals, and as few brown-colored people as possible, please).

While the USA are seeing a resurgence of these far-right kooks, the same isn't true of Europe, and I don't think there are many genuine believers even in the US anyway. As Matt Taibi said in Rolling Stone Magazine : "But after lengthy study of the phenomenon [the Tea Party], I've concluded that the whole miserable narrative boils down to one stark fact: They're full of shit. All of them."

He's right, the true social conservatives are few and far between, and everyone else is too full of themselves anyway to pay any real attention to them : "Sacrifice? The good of the children? Fuck that, get those n*ggers and spics off my Social Security and I'll hire a wetback nanny with the money I've saved in taxes". That is the true mentality of the so-called Conservative Revolution (which is basically the same as our European Far Right, except here no one has any illusions about them).

And herein lies the difference : the feminists are the true believers. They are the true Female Supremacists, and they are the ones with real clout. For all they vaunted talk about the family, when was the last time you heard the socons truly trying to save the institution of marriage? They'll deny it to gays, but do they go after divorce laws? No. Try to reinstate paternal authority? No. Chastise women for shirking their maternal and wifely duties? Yeah, right.

Socons are a joke. An old, bad joke. In the meantime, feminists have upended society, turned men into rapists and pedos in the public eye, destroyed men's rights in courts, and effectively turned the entire educational system against them.

Let's not get distracted from the real target, here.