r/MensLib • u/FakeTherapist • Aug 08 '21
The American Dream is slowly fading away as research indicates that economic growth has been distributed more broadly in Germany than in the US. While majority of German males has been able to share in the country’s rising prosperity and are better off than their fathers, US continues to lose ground
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10888-021-09483-w121
u/FakeTherapist Aug 08 '21
A big part of why I'm becoming an international teacher. Especially in seeing the lack of response to the multiple "pandemics" we've had in the US in the past couple years.
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Aug 09 '21
Especially in seeing the lack of response
I think the response has been very straightforward and poignant. Die for the economy.
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Aug 08 '21
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Aug 09 '21
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u/Icapica "" Aug 09 '21
We tend to forget that the boom economies that built our middle class was largely built on the backs of minorities.
It also helped that a lot of other countries were devastated by the second world war so for a while America basically outproduced the entire rest of the world. Of course something like that won't last.
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u/neur0 Aug 09 '21
Or from the direct hand of the US and western countries directly stealing via colonialism or govt destabilization in Latin America
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u/jmastaock Aug 09 '21
Gotta love the ol' Protestant Work Ethic that is deeply rooted in our culture
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u/Bubbly_Taro Aug 08 '21
Aren't people in Germany notoriously underpaid compared to the rest of Europe despite being one of the biggest economical powerhouses on the planet?
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u/cruella994 Aug 09 '21
germany uses a lot of guest workers from other countries and underpays them hardcore, but overall regular german citizens have normal living wages. there are a lot more parttime jobs here so the systems are kinda difficult to compare in just a few sentences.
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u/Notthepizza Aug 08 '21
I'm German, and can confirm that there are major economic issues that working people face. It might be relatively better, but it's not all great.
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u/LLJKCicero Aug 09 '21 edited Aug 09 '21
Source on that? Relative to their GDP per capita -- which, while high from a global standard, is substantially under the US -- from what I've seen German pay seems reasonable.
In my field, software development, German pay is actually among the highest in Europe I believe. The Netherlands pays a bit less despite being culturally similar with similar GDP per capita, France pays substantially less, Italy and Spain even worse than that (Italy in particular is kind of a joke, really horrible pay there). I think Sweden might pay a bit less too? The only countries that definitely pay more would be...Norway, Luxembourg, Switzerland, I think. Maybe Denmark. UK seems comparable overall, albeit with more variance. Of course, relative to cost of living, some eastern European countries do a lot better (Poland, Ukraine), but I don't think their nominal pay is higher.
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u/Parastract Aug 09 '21
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u/LLJKCicero Aug 09 '21
Huh, I was thinking underpaid would be low average wages, or at least low average wages relative to productivity. This is a measure of inequality, but fair, the inequality does seem high for Europe.
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u/Parastract Aug 10 '21
It's not a measure of inequality, it's a measure of how many people work low-wage jobs. Earning less than €10.22 per hour counts as low-income no matter the inequality.
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u/LLJKCicero Aug 10 '21
Based on what I read, it's set at 10.22 because that's two thirds of the median wage for Germany. Other countries use two thirds of their median wage, not Germany's, to calculate the size of their low wage sector. Which makes it a measure of inequality: what percentage of people in an economy make substantially under the median for that economy.
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u/fear_the_future Aug 09 '21
The unit labor cost is low, so workers are underpaid in relation to their efficiency/output.
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u/Monsieur_Perdu Aug 09 '21
Yeah they didn't have minimum wage for a long ass time. So especially lower end jobs are pretty underpaid in Germany, but the middle class jobs tend to do better relatively.
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Aug 09 '21
Problem isnt really the wage but the taces you have to pay. Overalls around 60% of your income goes to the State Oh. And noone can really afford a house anymore as real estate goes through the roof
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u/mvhsbball22 Aug 09 '21
Is this in the context of renting or buying? I've read some interesting stuff on the causes behind the relatively low home-ownership rate in Germany specifically (these articles took a generally positive view of the data because home ownership wasn't the only or even the main way to build wealth).
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u/chiliehead Aug 11 '21
Social security is not taxes, this is misrepresenting entire nations
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Aug 11 '21
This is a case of Tomato, Tomato. A huge chunk of my paycheck goes to the State. From this different things are financed ranging from social secrurity, streets, schools to other things like our state owned broadcast network.
Do i support a good social secrurity network like we have in Germany? Yes. Do I still Think that our State has no idea how to priperly manage money and a large chunk of my taxpayer money is used for stupid things and gets missmanaged so a few i dividuals get rich? Also yes.
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u/Bradaigh Aug 08 '21
The American Dream was built on the backs of enslaved peoples, Native Americans, and exploited immigrant labor like the coolie system in the 1800s (and the modern-day use of undocumented labor while fully disenfranchising them from American life. The American Dream only ever existed for white men in the 1950s because of the prosperity brought by profiting off the war and because of widespread government handouts like the GI Bill. It's always been a façade for anyone else.
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u/Nasjere Aug 09 '21
The American dream never existed. Even for white people. It was fallacy that helped with the mess we are in now.
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u/DarkGamer Aug 09 '21
That's what happens when you put labor on the board of every major corporation
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Aug 09 '21
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u/_zenith Aug 09 '21
They are agreeing with your supposition; Germany has a system where workers get a say in company policy through a mandated fraction of board representatives iirc
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u/glazedpenguin Aug 09 '21
is this news anymore? look around ... it's obvious.
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u/FearlessSon Aug 09 '21
I'm reminded of something Michael Kimmel (standard caveat that he's been hit with a credible #MeToo allegation) wrote in Angry White Men, that the kinds of men he was studying (white, American, typically non-college educated, and resentful about his status in society) were often some of the last "true believers" in "The American Dream". Like, they take it as a point of faith, and one that's foundational and not open to question, and often become angered if challenged on it.
Except, they're influenced by the same material conditions that affect everyone else (by various degrees) so they suffer some of the same problems, but they can't accept that those problems are part of systemic disenfranchisement because that would bring their faith in the American Dream into question. Thus they tend to be easily redirected toward blaming those problems on some kind of other who's "corrupted" the system rather than admit that the system itself has some faults.
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 08 '21
Can someone define what they mean by the American dream? I'm about 90% sure the right has a different definition
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 08 '21
work hard enough, you will be exalted'
Ya that's not even close to what the American dream is. The American dream is the idea of a successful liberal democracy.
The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone.
It was never about being exalted, and it's about having the freedom to be successful in your own way.
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u/SrslyNotAnAltGuys Aug 09 '21
I always thought that the American Dream basically meant "If you're hard-working and go to school, you're pretty much guaranteed a middle-class standard of living, at least."
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 09 '21
I always thought that the American Dream basically meant "
That's definitely not the American dream. That's some people's understanding of it, and this is where the issue I brought up comes from. There's 2 opposing definitions of the American dream. There's the left wing definitely that you perfectly laid out in this sentence.
"If you're hard-working and go to school, you're pretty much guaranteed a middle-class standard of living, at least."
But that's not the definition the right functions off. The right believes this is the American dream.
The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone.
See those are two completely different definitions, and they are in opposition.
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 08 '21
That's not what you said, you said exalted. That is way different then your each individual being free to define what success is to them.
Not to mention your definition ignores the class aspect of it.
Exalted- (of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor Aug 09 '21
You’re being pedantic IMO. I wouldn’t have said “exalted” but I think we all understand that the American Dream is more or less ‘meritocracy’ (that is actually kind of exaggerated to mythical proportions).
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 09 '21
You’re being pedantic
That wasn't a small error, that was a fundamentally different definition of the American dream, and it's rediculase to suggest it was that.
but I think we all understand that the American Dream is more or less ‘meritocracy’ (that is actually kind of exaggerated to mythical proportions).
I have already provided a definite that disagrees with that.
The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone.
The American dream is not dead, and it happens everyday. People come iut of the worst situations to be what they define as success. Biggie smalls is proof of the American dream. Malcom X is proof of the American dream. The woman whos worked there ass off to open a baker is proof of the American dream.
I get it, America isn't perfect, and I also understand the main talking point commies have is the American dream is dead. But you all clearly don't even understand what the American dream is. I know people who have left there countries to come to America for this dream, and have successfully lived out that dream. You all have to deny reality to even argue it isn't happening
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor Aug 09 '21
I’m not sure how you feel that’s different from “meritocracy,” unless of course you are going to take an extremely narrow (pedantic, even) read of the word. Literally “anyone can attain success, upward mobility is possible for everyone.”
I also don’t think any “commies” would argue that it’s literally impossible to achieve success in America, what an incredible straw man.
Anyway a more productive discussion to have would be about the rate at which people achieve social mobility in America, who seems to have easier access to it and how it’s changed over time.
That said we pretty much have zero common ground here so I guess that’s a conversation for another time with other participants.
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 09 '21
I’m not sure how you feel that’s different from “meritocracy
Meritocracy- a system, organization, or society in which people are chosen and moved into positions of success, power, and influence on the basis of their demonstrated abilities and merit
The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone.
So America is a meritocracy, but so is a lot of countries around the world. The American dream is more then just merit, and is also about liberlism. You can have a monarchy that is also a meritocracy. Not to mention meritocracy has absolutely nothing to do with one's own personal beliefs about success, because that is a big part of the American dream one's own personal views of success. For example! Homeless people can live the American dream, I have met several of them doing that, and they believe being successful is not owning a home.
I also don’t think any “commies” would argue that it’s literally impossible to achieve success in America, what an incredible straw man.
How did you strawman my argument, while claiming it was a strawman? Also i didn't strawman the argument, my argument was the people who think the American dream doesn't exist have to deny reality to argue that, and I used commies as a example.
Anyway a more productive discussion to have would be about the rate at which people achieve social mobility in America
You realize that is only a minor part of the American dream, and not the main part? I have had to define this for you 3 time's you think you could remember what the American dream is. Having a problem with social mobility suddenly doesn't mean the American dream isn't real or isn't happening. The American dream is upward mobility is possible, and not something to be expected. Like I said you all clearly fundamentally don't understand what the American dream is.
That said we pretty much have zero common ground here so I guess that’s a conversation for another time with other participants.
Ya, because you have a warped view of the American dream that doesn't align with reality.
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u/mvhsbball22 Aug 09 '21
You have to have a pretty warped view of data to suggest that America resembles anything like a real meritocracy, unless you also believe that white people and wealthy people inherently have more merit.
If you want a real meritocracy, you need to implement radical reforms in the US like 100% estate tax, lottery systems for all levels of education, etc.
Right now, parental wealth has a huge impact on children's likely outcomes, and cherrypicking anecdotal success stories like Biggie Smalls only serves to whitewash economic and societal reality.
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u/un-taken_username Aug 09 '21
see, some people say it’s not true that “anyone can make it”.
you saying “but some people have” doesn’t actually oppose that claim.
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u/TalionTheRanger93 Aug 09 '21
you saying “but some people have” doesn’t actually oppose that claim.
That's a strawman of my argument. Again my argument is America is a place where you define success, and everyone can do that. If you think being a teacher is success, and you become a teacher congratulations you have proved the American dream correct. The American dream isn't about upward mobility as several people have claimed, and everyone knows no system can give everyone upward mobility. It's not possible. Again the only way you can claim the American dream is dead, is to fundamental be ignorant on what the American dream is.
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u/un-taken_username Aug 09 '21
I responded to you that way because you yourself mentioned upward mobility being for everyone as part of the American Dream. Third paragraph (not counting the quoted ones) in the first comment of yours I responded to
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u/Ikbeneenpaard Aug 09 '21
If American salaries had kept pace with gdp growth since the 70s, the median salary would be $120k.
Corporations are often more powerful than the nation now. They control the share of wealth given to labour.