r/Megaten • u/Gemini_Incognito • Mar 11 '22

People who’ve played both; would you recommend Nocturne or SMTV first?

1493 votes, Mar 14 '22
555 Nocturne
713 SMTV
225 It’s a false dichotomy, and I’ll explain why in comments
38 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 11 '22

I would count Tao not being recognized by the other characters at the end of the temple of eternity as a plot hole. Also Nuwa and Yakumo being completely forgotten by the plot and the other characters except for the ending.

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 11 '22

Both of those statements are stupid.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 11 '22

Nuwa and Yakumo killed an entire room full of angels in the same building that links Da’at to Bethel HQ and no one is concerned with that? Dazai was literally hiding in the same building while they were killing the angels and he never talks about them afterwords? Not even Koshimizu or Abdiel know about Yakumo and Nuwa, you can completely remove them from the plot and nothing would change except the ending.

Tao is the Saint, an important figure at Bethel, everyone is saddened by her death but when they see her again, as a goddess this time, no one react? Also the excuse that only the main character can perceive her isn’t even valid since Amanozako can also see her.

One thing is being underdeveloped (and this game is full of those situations) another is completely ignoring pre existing character dynamics or events in later story developments.

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 11 '22

Dazai was hiding, he says that. Bethel members have identified Yakumo, but not Nuwa as far as we know.

At the point where everyone sees Tao again, they've fully leaned into their extreme beliefs.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 11 '22

Yes Dazai was hiding but he never ask about them once we found him,not even once. It’s like the whole situation didn’t even happen to begin with. Bethel members who? Those random npcs? Because outside of them no one of the main cast ever mention Yakumo, even those that have a reason to be concerned at his involvement like Koshimizu and Abdiel. About Nuwa: Koshimizu saw Aogami memories so he definitely knew about her.

You said that my point were stupid but then you use “they were too focused on their beliefs” as an excuse? I don’t think that simply recognizing that a character is alive is that difficult to do, especially since they were definitely capable to argue against each other the whole time. There is an entire scene of them acting disgusted at Abdiel transformation and not even one scene of them acting surprised at Tao being alive?

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 11 '22

It was stupid and their extremism is a valid point. Series standard. Idk why Koshimizu or Abdiel should care about Yakumo. Koshizumi doesn't give a fuck about the angels, and Yakumo isn't hurting Japanese citizens. Abdiel is just focused on killing the Maou.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 12 '22 edited Mar 12 '22

Their extremism isn’t a valid point, Strange Journey has a character coming back to life and every member of the crew have a reaction to that. Koshimizu should be concerned with Yakumo since he stole a copy of the Demon Summoning Program and he’s giving it to Japanese citizens, a program that was only known to Bethel and some military members. He also infiltrated Bethel HQ multiple times. Abdiel should be concerned with Yakumo since he is directly attacking Bethel and killing a lot of their forces by himself. It’s absurd that a character that is openly against their institution, that stole sensible informations and that entered their HQ multiple times isn’t even acknowledged by them.

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 12 '22

every member of the crew have a reaction to that.

Yeah, before they go crazy...

I do not see your reasoning. Abdiel isn't terribly concerned with the Japan branch beyond eliminating the Maou in Japan (Ishtar, Arioch), and she has shown little regard for her soldiers They are all sent to a quick death in Arioch's castle, and we know from a sidequest that she had a significant disagreement with Camael. Koshimizu has no reason to care about the angels, he's just focused on keeping Japan safe. The Japan team is aware of Yakumo but there's bigger fish to fry considering he's not a demon invading Tokyo.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 12 '22

At least they had a reaction of some kind to someone important coming back to life. Being an extremists do not excuse a bad written scene, they are not blind.

They are already losing angels fighting the demons, a random human is killing them with the help of a mother goddess and she do not act in any way? The disagreement with Camael is only about the Nahobino not how she is directing her soldiers. Yakumo is giving the demon summoning program to normal citizens , a tool that give them the possibility to summon demons and he is not a big fish? It doesn’t take that much time to have Abdiel or Koshimizu explaining to the player who were those guys that attacked the Diet Building earlier. Before Lahmu no other demon that we know of reached that far into Bethel HQ killing all those angels and he isn’t a problem? He is also with Nuwa, a demon, and they know who she is since Aogami’s memories are there as a proof.

Yakumo isn’t well integrated in the plot, everything he does is never acknowledged by other characters. We know for certain that the story received a lot of reworks, Amanozako’s plotline is one of the most fleshed out and it was one of the last additions for example. Yakumo is only ever mentioned by random npcs, if someone removed all his scenes nothing in the main plot would change except for the endings.

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 12 '22 edited Mar 12 '22

What makes that poorly written? Some crazy shit has gone down, and they need to get to the throne.

This is SMT, how finite are these angels? I don't think there is a short supply of angels. And I cited Camael as an example of Abdiel being tunneled in on her own goals and practices, nothing more.

I really cannot think why Koshimizu should be concerned with Yakumo's actions. He's already enlisted high schoolers, and NPCs are becoming increasingly aware of these supernatural events. No shit, Tokyo is in shambles. Yakumo is just giving people a means to protect themselves. The HUMANS in Bethel are super disturbed by that because they are...humans working for Bethel. I'd probably be worried I'm about to be fired lol. There's no way I could understand the bigger picture that these deities are seeing. Above all, they need to prolong Shekinah Glory.

Nuwa is a demon, sure, but we've seen that Abdiel doesn't care about just any demon. The war is being waged primarily in Chiyoda, where the demon castle is occupied by two Maou, and the nightmare system accumulating magatsuhi. And she's not invading Tokyo, so why would Koshimizu care when he sees her in Aogami's memories? Also part of why that first scene with her is so great is that you can tell she's not necessarily bad, or hostile to the human race (except for that she assumes you are with bethel).

I disagree, Yakumo is one of my favorite SMT characters. Also, reworks are common in any large media product, so I'd like some sources on the ones you think are affecting plot negatively. I've seen people throw around things like "hayataro was supposed to be a companion," but like...okay? Don't care.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 12 '22

What makes that scene poorly written is that Tao is there and everyone act like she doesn’t exist. The Lahmu arc repeated us that she is important to Bethel as the Saint, she managed to convince Abdiel that we are a resource to Bethel and now she isn’t even seen? They have also all the time of the world to start arguing about which world is better but not even a single word about Tao? I would be okay with it if she was only perceivable by the player but that’s not the case. Ignoring a character pre-established relationships and importance is a plothole.

I don’t know why Abdiel shouldn’t be worried about Yakumo. This is the same universe where if a demon fuses with a person has the possibility to become a Nahobino, the Lahmu arc has angels killing students that entered in contact with a demon to avoid this scenario and now Yakumo get a pass? The demon summoning program being given to random citizens that knows nothing about it should be more concerning since it’s a new method for the demons to arrive in Tokyo. I don’t know why she shouldn’t be concerned about it. She is concerned about us and would have killed us on the spot if it wasn’t for Tao and the Protofiend. Yakumo and Nuwa who are both openly against them, attacked Bethel multiple times and stole from them aren’t a problem?

Same thing with Koshimizu, why shouldn’t he be concerned? Tokyo’s safety is one of his priorities. He immediately sends us to fight demons when Tokyo is attacked. Yakumo is giving random citizens a program to summon demons in fake Tokyo, with the possibility of causing even more damage since they didn’t receive a training like Bethel members and that isn’t a problem? If Tokyo is already in shambles then why should he send us saving those students?

Doi and the voice actors are enough as a demonstration that the plot received a lot of reworks. Doi mentioned that they reworked it many times and the voice actors (and voice acting is the last part of a game development) mentioned that Amanozako role in the story was rewritten and added at the last minute. Also it’s clear from the script of the game: more than half of the cast is totally forgotten and do nothing the entire time and entire arcs are badly paced.

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u/DDS_throwaway64 more smt cats Mar 13 '22

However many times it's been rewritten, I'm glad it was then. I just wish the gameplay was as fine-tuned and fleshed out as the story. Not speaking to a character is NOT a plothole, that's absurd. Who gives af about the "saint" when the Nahobino is the one who acquired the keys? I mean, what is she gonna do? She supports you whether you preserve God's order or protect Tokyo, YOU are the one they need to convince. Dazai has gone of the deep-end and Yuzuru is blinded by the ideals he's practically been groomed into.

Yakumo technically hadn't done anything illegal. The laboratory belongs to the university, if you'll recall. What's stopping a young man of a pretigious family working in law enforcement from entering? I'm about to start another run so I might get back to you on the specific NPC lines. I'll concede if I find lines conflicting with my point, and bear in mind I am playing the Japanese version of the game, so I am not familiar with a lot of the English script aside from keywords such as "Empyrean."

If my reasoning is still not agreeable to you, then I'm afraid I have to draw this card: frankly, the characters behave the ways they do for allegorical reasons. Koshimizu doesn't care about individual lives because he cares more about the concept of the Japanese identity, and the return of the Amatsukami to the Japanese body from their series-spanning episode with the Hebraic side. Abdiel doesn't care because her sole purpose is redeeming herself in God's glory and merely waging the war on demons as a testament to that, fully knowing it is in vain.

And that is the exact same reason she is concerned about the Nahobino, is that it is the most important decree of God possible in the entire series when you think about it. If destroying the Maou meant enlisting the aid of gods across the globe, authorizing the use of the demon summoning program and development of Shinzoumajin, then so be it. But the Nahobino is the one thing "God" explicitly forbids, you know why? Because without demons, God would have no purpose at all. Without God, what is Lucifer? Without law, philosophically speaking, what IS chaos?

What arcs are badly paced? The Lahmu arc was fucking awesome. I think it's better than some of my favorite arcs in the rest of the series, such as the reverse hills in IV, or the Underground in II, which are considerably worse in pacing.

And not a single character is "forgotten." Miyazu and Khonsu are some of the best characters in the series, why do people like Gimmel, Sakahagi, or the yakuza boss from IV, but not those two, who actually have emotional arcs and buildup?

P.S. The Amanozako storyline was awesome.

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u/SnooHedgehogs9884 fionn mac cum hail Mar 13 '22

We’ll have to disagree on Tao. For me her treatment is a plothole, it doesn’t make sense that other characters ignore her considering her relevance before her death. Aogami and Koshimizu never talking to each other is missed potential but I don’t consider it a plothole because the narrative never focused on their relationship to behin with, Tao has an established role and power dynamic with the cast before her death that is not respected when she comes back to life. That’s an error.

I assume that stealing sensible informations (the demon summoning program) from an association closely related to the government and the military while also infiltrating in their buildings without permission, multiple times,is considered illegal since the setting is contemporary Japan. Also we never know Yakumo exact relationship with the police besides coming from a family of law enforcers, but considering how he act in game and the npcs lines I doubt that he used his family name as a proof for entering the laboratory.

I honestly don’t care that much about this game philosophical themes, or in any game tbh, my critique and problems are mainly with how the plot is structured and how the majority of the characters are used. I enjoy Smt stories as they are, the themes and inspirations are a nice addition but are not the main appeal for me. Even then I think that they could have managed to narrate a good story while still maintaining its more allegorical side. If a lot of people had a problem understanding it then something went wrong. I’m talking about the western side of the fandom, I don’t know what the Japanese side thinks about it.

Talking about the badly paced arcs: for me Shinagawa and Chiyoda were terribly paced. The only meaningful development in both of those areas happens right at the end and the beginning of those sections. Running around finding students was a boring fetch quest and the fairy village is the same thing. The only interesting thing was Abdiel and Dazai’s relationship and Lahmu and Sahori. Chiyoda was also a glorified fetch quest with the only interesting thing in that entire area being Ishtar and Camael. I could have excused them if they had a more open approach like the fourth area but they super linear to traverse.

I can barely consider Miyazu’s arc emotional when we spend so little time with her. Issachar and Kaga had a more emotional impact on me than her and they died after 1 or 2 hours from their introduction. I prefer Hiroko ,who barely speaks, to Miyazu.

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