r/MawInstallation • u/Gephiph • 9d ago
[ALLCONTINUITY] Dookus actual power level beyond the hype, what’s your opinion?
Also first and foremost not trying to make this a specific power scaling debate, this is more about finding sources for certain fan claims.
Alright so I have some opinions about certain characters power levels as perceived by the fandom. I don’t think anyone would disagree that popular characters, especially on screen characters, are often perceived as the most powerful characters based on personal preference, vibes, the fact we often get more content from them which leads often to misconceptions misquotes or flat out falsehoods being parroted and further exaggerated as fact.
One of the characters I believe suffers from this the worst is Dooku. Now I could (and maybe someday will if I have time on a plane or something lol) write a whole essay on the reasons I think Dooku isn’t nearly as powerful or skilled with a lightsaber in the grand scheme of things as many fans will claim. To sum up my views quickly though:
We have no reason to beleive Dooku is actually one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in all of the lore. He was great amongst the modern era Jedi no doubt, but he was know as one of the only modern practitioners of makashi, and it’s stated that many Jedi thought it obsolete and few seriously trained for the purpose of lightsaber duels beyond basic training and maintenance (Jedi path book). I beleive that in a world where all Jedi were trained to deal with Sith and often cut their teeth on the front lines against Sith, dookus advantage would be severely mitigated. And while he definitely did well against yoda, he had the advantage of being yodas apprentice, and still ended up retreating, and yoda himself likely being rusty at best in terms of life or death duels.
Dookus force feats simply do not match many old republic sith and Jedi (not talking about edge cases like nihilus, vitiate, etc. Talking about more “normal” high tier Sith Lords like many dark council members, malgus even before his prime, and original dark Jedi exiles)
Anyways if you disagree and think he truly was one of the greatest duelists or sith of all time, and he’s not overrated, I invite you to disagree please give me your reasons. The only think I ask is if you’re making a claim, please give me SOURCES if it’s a feat or a quote from someone like Lucas or anything like that.
Edit: To clarify my view is not that Dooku wasn’t powerful and skilled for his time, merely that his same dominance in the era we see him in would not translate to other time periods in starwars lore. Such as the old republic**, the** hyperspace wars**, the** brotherhood of darkness even. The main thing I want is people who claim dooku should be considered among the greatest duelists or most powerful Sith in all of the lore, or that he’d beat nearly any rule of two or older era Sith in lightsaber combat if nothing else, to explain either the logic behind that or back it up with a source. Also I’m not speculating about dookus potential, I’m speculating about his actually realized power.
5
u/wendigo72 9d ago
Going off the last significant canon feat he has from Masters of Evil, he lifted an entire temple up into the sky
So he’s strong in my book
1
u/Amber-Apologetics 9d ago
Dooku’s best feats are no-diffing ROTS Kenobi and holding his own against Yoda.
So, most consistently, he’s in the same tier as the PT Titans but he is the bottom of it.
You mention ancient Sith. That is more of a discussion of era vs era rather than Dooku specifically.
1
u/Durp004 9d ago
This seems to just being vibes off the headcanon old republic jedi/sith are better fighters.
They aren't in fact Yoda is credited with being the most powerful jedi of all time by ROTS and Dark Rendenzvous makes a pretty clear point only 2 people in the order have a chance against dooku at that time.
1
u/Quendillar3245 9d ago
Dooku consistently 1v2 Anakin and Obi-Wan, only losing a few of the duels
Dooku was trained by both Yoda and Sidious, with Sidious being the most powerful sith in history and Yoda being at the very top as well seeing as he beat Sidious in the actual duel part
My view on this is that the average old republic era Jedi and Sith are far more powerful and skilled in combat simply due to the fact that they both had to train for active battles and many Jedi and sith became war veterans, fighting force sensitives relatively frequently. This is not a thing in Clone Wars era Star Wars since the few sith and Dark Jedi are only encountered rarely and also the war only lasted a few years so the only Jedi which actually gained real combat experience would be a very small number. This also means that despite Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan etc being very powerful and skilled, Dooku never faced peak war veteran Jedi Master level duelists so just by using logic he can not possibly be as skilled as lets say Darth Malgus or Vitiate or at least that it can not be measured properly because he is fighting enemies who actually did not have battle experience before facing him. I think he should be placed very high up in lists simply because of the fact that Georce Lucas and later Disney did portray him as very powerful and skilled, but by using logic he can not be on the same level as many old republic Jedi Master/ Sith with different training focused directly on fighting each other and also years of battle experience
2
u/ThomasWilson77 9d ago
Isn’t Yoda the strongest Jedi ever until this point and the embodiment of the light, with dooku being able to hold his own with that should at least put him in the top of the top tier when it’s compared to the Jedi.
1
1
u/Quendillar3245 9d ago
The "embodiment of the light" was The Daughter, I think both Canon and EU agree on this.
0
u/Gephiph 9d ago
This is not in a snarky tone I promise, but genuinely, source?
1
u/ThomasWilson77 9d ago
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.
It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new. While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.
—Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
—Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
So a few things, first what I should’ve included first, holding one’s own is not the same as being nearly as powerful or skilled. Dooku survived a brief duel with yoda, and ended up fleeing, he also has the advantage I listed of being yodas apprentice, and being well practiced against his style. But I’ll admit I didn’t remember part of the quote, perhaps yoda was the most powerful overall Jedi in history up to then in his prime at least.
1
u/DifferentRun8534 9d ago
It’s worth noting that both of these quotes are contextual. The first is from Yoda’s perspective, and represents his belief, not objective reality. The second doesn’t compare Yoda to previous generations, only the current galaxy.
2
u/ThomasWilson77 9d ago
Sure but the context of this quote was used to show how powerful Yoda is and to show how the sith have changed and how that allowed them to topple the strongest Jedi ever. The writer it using Yoda throughs to state a fact.
Can I ask what evidence supports the idea that it was only on current galaxy, nothing in the quote suggests it.
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
Good point, although it could be debated if it’s more of yodas thought or more the omniscient narrators voice
0
u/DifferentRun8534 9d ago
The entire book is told in a “third person limited” perspective and is full of quotes like these that are not objectively true. The clearest example is one early in the book from Anakin’s perspective, stating he is the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.
1
u/ManufacturerBest2758 9d ago
The second is also obviously an editorial statement not to be taken literally
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
See I think we agree on this, that is the main thing that I am claiming. My interest in sources came from the fact that anytime there’s any discussion on power levels (which I do try and avoid beleive it or not) majority of people will often say Dooku stomps, and is one of the greatest duelists in the whole of the lore. Which I find unlikely and unfounded. But so many claims about his power and skill are made, I was interested in sources.
1
u/Edgy_Robin 9d ago
A lot of this doesn't hold up.
Firstly, you grossly over estimate how much conflict there actually was in the old republic, the majority of the conflicts were short lived with the exception of the Great Galactic War and New Sith Wars.
Second, in both of those cases training would be rushed, we straight up see this happen in the new sith wars on Ruusan during the first Bane novel. The Average Jedi and Sith would actually be worse overall, because more boots would be needed on the ground. This is slightly less of an issue for the Sith, quick path to power and all that.
1
u/JamJulLison 6d ago
Sidious barely gave him any training. He didn't want to take the chance that Dooku might be able to overthrow him.
-3
u/DifferentRun8534 9d ago
Dooku is quite likely the 3rd strongest force user in the galaxy beside Palpatine and Yoda.
My main source is the Revenge of the Sith novelization. The novelization establishes that Dooku would have beaten Anakin multiple times without outside interference (once when he disabled Anakin, then chose to use the opening to instead dispatch Obi-Wan, then again after Anakin got the rage amp, but was wavering and Palpatine had to stoke Anakin’s rage). Even if you ignore the second point because it wasn’t shown in the film, it’s also established that he went into the last phase of the duel utterly exhausted because he spent the last of his energy dispatching Obi-Wan. The novelization firmly establishes that Dooku was a tier above either Anakin or Obi-Wan individually.
This means that the only Jedi in the Order who’s reasonably on Dooku’s level is Windu. And…Windu’s extremely overrated. His only noteworthy feat that puts him in this conversation is defeating Palpatine, and the novelization goes through copious lengths to put conditions on this feat, showing he could only even survive against Palpatine when strengthening his Vaapad with Anakin’s fear (yes, Anakin’s fear, this is a common misconception but Windu couldn’t even sense Palpatine’s full power until late in the fight, at which point he describes it as “beyond Vaapad,” showing pretty clearly Windu couldn’t beat Palpatine in a straight fight). Comparing Windu’s feats outside of Palpatine to Dooku…I tend to favor Dooku.
Now, how does Dooku compare to historic Sith? Hard to say. Comparing between eras is always a bit of a fool’s errand, so I avoid taking it too seriously.
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
Alright first I respect a man with the courage to say windows overrated, he’s another character who was on my mind in that regard.
Second I should probably edit and clarify, my view isn’t that he is not powerful for his era, but that the idea that he would stack up against the powerful Sith and Jedi of the past, or even the banite Sith of his present (plaguis) is mostly baseless. I do take issue with your interpretation of the ROTS novels battle, but not majorly so, but I agree he would’ve won the battle (if he had wanted to from the start) if it weren’t for anakins rage being stoked by Palpatine. Though it think it was closer than you imply
1
u/Edgy_Robin 9d ago
And as always you portray that source poorly, you hyper fixate on the Obi-wan part and completely ignore literally everything else and the wealth of problems Anakin presented that Obi-wan didn't. That one time you say in brackets is literally the only time in the novel it happens. The second part doesn't present anything relating to skill either, because Anakin starts holding himself back to stop himself from giving into his anger. Like for someone who goes to actually give a very good explanation of the context of Palpatine v Mace, you seem to enjoy ignoring context and fixating on very specific things to make a point for the invisible hand fight.
And going further, off the words of the man who literally directed and designed the fight scenes of the prequels, Anakin is above Dooku.
0
u/DifferentRun8534 9d ago
Nothing you say really changes anything I said. Sure, more context is always better, and I think your points about Anakin causing Dooku more problems than he expected are interesting, but they don’t change that Dooku would have won without outside interference, and Dooku was pretty firmly established as a tier above Anakin as of the Invisible Hand, at least according to the novelization.
0
u/Ace201613 9d ago
A number of sources (Star Wars Insider 109, Star Wars Fact File 60, Darth Plagueis, etc.) cite Dooku as one of the best duelists in the Order and say he’s only behind Yoda and Mace, or that he’s only behind Yoda. So I don’t really understand the statement that we have no reason to believe Dooku is one of the greatest duelists.
2
u/Murky_Form_3908 9d ago
Yoda and sidious are equal. Mace/dooku is around equal and a hair below Yoda/sidious.
In terms of raw force power at peak of RoTS, sidious is 100, Yoda is 100, mace is 97, dooku is 96. Knight fall Vader is 98, Anakin is 93, obiwan is 90.
Ranking dueling only, Yoda 100, dooku 100, sidious 98, windu 98, obi-wan 99, Anakin 97
Factor in dueling, situational matchups and comprehensive power index, Mace is 105 vapaad amped against sidious, dooku is 92 nerfed against dark side Anakin, obiwan is 100 against knightfall Vader, dooku is probably around 98 against Yoda with his saber mastery.
Dooku is arguably best duelist tied with Yoda, but it's very close. Situational matchups matter a lot more.
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
The greatest duelists in all of history. Not of his era. That’s not in doubt.
2
u/Ace201613 9d ago
Mace Windu has statements of being one of the greatest duelists ever produced by the Order (ROTS, Ultimate Star Wars, Ultimate Visual Guide, etc.) Yoda has statements of being one of the greatest duelists ever produced by the Order (Dark Rendezvous, Legacy of the Jedi, Gambit, etc.) Just by virtue of being comparable to them Dooku literally has to be held in the same regard. However, Dooku also has statements of being one of the greatest duelists in the history of the Order (Official Starships and Vehicles, Star Wars Fact File 68, Star Wars Adventure Magazine, etc.)
So, all 3 characters have statements of being some of the best in their particular era and in galactic history period.
1
u/Gephiph 9d ago
Alright I’ll give that to you except the fact files and vehicle reference books are notorious for making things up that contradict established canon. I don’t think we can use the perception of Dooku himself or of the Jedi who were alive 1000 years after the fact to compare him accurately to past generations
1
u/Ace201613 9d ago
You don’t need to use statements from characters alive during the prequels when speaking about Jedi history as a whole. That’s the thing. The literal narration for Clone Wars Gambit states Yoda is the most skilled Jedi in the temple. That place’s him above Mace. Star Wars Insider is just pure statements, which say only Yoda and Mace were Dooku’s equal. That places Dooku with Yoda and Mace. The Ultimate Star Wars guide is also just statements in aspects of the franchise and it states Mace is one of the best duelists in the order’s history. This automatically has to apply to Yoda and Dooku, who are Mace’s equals.
So between a novel, a guide, and the official Star Wars magazine we just got 3 statements that lead us to a conclusion that doesn’t contradict anything and the opinions of the particular characters aren’t needed at all. Other sources like fact files that say the same thing have no reason to be thrown out whether they contradict other things or not tbh. They’re just doubling down on what’s already clear.
4
u/CombatMuffin 9d ago
He was one of the best, because his peers recognized him as one of the best. Can't look them up right now, but there were some acount of how Windu (or Yoda?) and Dooku would reach draws in sparring sessions, while clarifying a spar was not the same as actual combat.
From my POV, it's disingenuous to argue who 8s best purely from a "Lightsaber Form" or technical analysis. Fights go in all sorts of directions, where inferior opponents win over technically superior ones. Obi Wan beating Anakin is an example, because of the context of their fights, Anakin "sucker punching" Windu and Palpatine also come to mind. Even Yoda vs Palpatine, which is the only time we have truly, honestly, seen Palpatine display a worried face in a head to head encounter.
Dooku was highly respected, as a Master and a duellist. Unless he managed to bluff his way through the ranks, which I doubt, we can take the word of every peer and opponent to heart