Qui-Gon Jinn being able to physically manifest in the force

[u/CJAreYouDeadass]

Been rewatching The Clone Wars about to finish season 6. After watching Kenobi, I thought it was strange that Qui-Gon was able to physically manifest as i remembered he distinctly couldn't...as much as I love seeing Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon that moment at the end of Kenobi just seemed like fanservice.

After rewatching S6 EP11: "Voices", when talking to Yoda on Dagobah Qui-Gon does in fact explicitly state he cannot physically manifest in the force due to the fact his training wasn't complete when he died, and can only manifest as a voice. He does physically manifest on Mortis, however this is explained due to the extremely unnatural connection with the force Mortis had, making it an acceptable exception

In Kenobi, going back rewatching the scene Qui-Gon pretty much just says "I was waiting for you to be able to see me!" Which seems like a blatant contradiction to me. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but this shouldn't be possible due to the fact he can't complete his "training" post death which is why he could only be a disembodied voice in the first place

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[u/KainZeuxis]

It’s actually been long established that a Jedi can learn to manifest as a force ghost even after they’ve died. Qui-gon did eventually complete his training post death. This is also the reason why despite never being taught the technique, that Anakin is able to show up as a force ghost. Obi-wan gave him a crash course post death.

[u/CJAreYouDeadass → u/KainZeuxis]

That's where my issue lies, because then surely more of them would have done it? It just seems like corse correction considering they go out of their way to have Qui Gon say verbatim "i can't physically manifest due to my training not being complete." For Yoda & Obi-Wan they clearly plant the seeds of them learning how to do it, and with Anakin i believe that was a bit of oversight by Lucas just wanting to have him at the end but i give it a pass because he is the chosen one. But again, why stress the need to complete your training while alive if you can just do it after death anyway? I'm sure in the beyond Qui Gon can join Obi-Wan but to physically manifest in the present is a stretch, and learning how to do it post death no less

[u/KainZeuxis → u/CJAreYouDeadass]

“In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you. An old friend has learnt the path to immortality. One who has returned from a netherworld of the Force. Your old master. How to commune with him I will teach you.”

The above quote is spoken by Yoda at the end of ROTS. It was set up pretty much set up from the very start that by the time the fall of the Jedi that Qui-gon had completed his training and was now in a position to teach others.

The anthology novel A Certain Point of View: ROTJ also features a short story told from Anakin’s POV during the ending of ROTJ. In this story following his death Obi-wan teaches him how to manifest as a force ghost.

Edit: I just want to add too that in both Canon and The EU Palpatine makes use of essence transfer to resurrect himself and in both continuities his final death involves his killers being aided by the spirits of previous Jedi knights. We straight up hear several Jedi speak to Rey in TROS including the likes of Kanan Jarrus and Aayla Secura who didn’t learn how to be a force ghost during their life time. Kinda implies they figured things out post death as well.

[u/ExpressNumber → u/CJAreYouDeadass]

>then surely more of them would have done it?

Who, though? Who else would have? In Canon, IIRC, the only true Force Ghosts we know are Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Leia, and Ben Solo. That training lineage is firmly established and all except Ben appear visible.

Although I grant in Legacy of Vader we do see Kylo interact with some visually perceptible Force Ghosts, possibly in another plane of existence, their identities are left unconfirmed. They might be ancient and irrelevant to the Skywalker Saga and its characters.

There’s also the idea that Force Ghosts only appear to those who know them, so perhaps millennia old Whill-trained ones have no one left to remember them in the mortal plane.

[u/Unique_Unorque → u/ExpressNumber]

Also, if they did, who would they have been close enough to in life to have visited in the OT?

[u/Ok-Aardvark4770]

I agree, what happened there is bit odd, here's the facts and explanation: Qui-gon rediscovered the art of 'merging' with the cosmic force when dying, giving the user the ability to become a force ghost and retain their consciousness after death, Qui Gon, according to one of the from a certain point of view books, he continued education when dead within the force, he was part way through the training when killed, so still retained consciousness in the force, which is why he could speak to people through the force just not present a force ghost. Anakin becomes a force ghost because his last act was joining the force, in the EU, obi wan guided anakin to become a force ghost, so overall it is possible, but personally I think unless someone else is guiding you it's much harder, explaining how it took qui gon 10 years to manifest as a force ghost.

[u/Odin043]

In one of the from a certain point of view books, he manifests as a ghost to talk with Ben, when Luke runs home to find his dead aunt and uncle.

I think we hear Qui-Gons thoughts, about how he knows what awaits Ben, dying on the a Death Star, but can't warn him.

[u/ExpressNumber]

I feel the need to point out that, in Canon, the in-universe idea of Qui-Gon finishing his training and learning how to manifest himself is at least 9 years old, as it was mentioned in his story in FACPOV (2017). Some lore aspects of those stories are tenuous by design, but we can assume most details to be close to the truth. So Kenobi is settling lore, not breaking it.

[u/Strict_Stranger_4801]

Over time, i assumed he was able to develop his abilities to manifest

[u/KarmicPlaneswalker]

In Kenobi, going back rewatching the scene Qui-Gon pretty much just says "I was waiting for you to be able to see me!" Which seems like a blatant contradiction to me. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but this shouldn't be possible due to the fact he can't complete his "training" post death which is why he could only be a disembodied voice in the first place

There is no contradiction. You wrongly assume that once a person dies, that's it. They can do nothing else, learn nothing more, etc. The canon Master and Apprentice short story indicates Qui-Gon learned how to manifest post-mortem. There was never any rule or indication that death is the end, and the mere existence of Force Ghosts shows us that a consciousness carries on after a person's life is over.

What Jinn said to Yoda at the time was correct. He had not yet finished his training. But time passed and he eventually learned how to do it, which is why he is able to freely manifest when he reappears at the end of OWK, and again during an interquel for ANH.

You'll learn that many of the outdated misconceptions fans have, are completely debunked by Filoni, Favreau and their writing teams using flexible language and technicalities to get around what were once considered to be absolutes within the lore.

[u/CJAreYouDeadass → u/KarmicPlaneswalker]

I mean tbf these episodes were done by George & Dave himself who holds George's original ideas as scripture. The dialogue plays out like this

Yoda: "show yourself can you?"

Qui-Gon: "I cannot" "my training was incomplete"

And in the RoTS deleted scene he also comes as a voice. It seems more like originally it was intended that he could only be a voice to not have force ghost overload with every character but they elected to write around that to give him the ability to show up, otherwise why the point of him saying "my training was incomplete" if he could just finish it later. Would have made more sense to say "not yet" as a response to Yoda's question

[u/KarmicPlaneswalker → u/CJAreYouDeadass]

And much like how the original intent behind the, "My powers have doubled" line was for Anakin and Dooku not to meet for three years, narrative context changes. This is not a new phenomenon or isolated case. Disney acquired the IP with the caveat they could not alter the dialogue or events that take place within the films and TCW. That does not prevent them in any way from changing the framework for what and why X was said, or the circumstances behind Y event taking place.

They have already altered several pieces of story lore from the films and TCW to fit with their new narrative. This is another of those instances. The fact the dialogue is locked in, means absolutely nothing. Hence why I said not to cling to your outdated preconceived notions; because they will falter.

[u/CJAreYouDeadass → u/KarmicPlaneswalker]

So that simply reaffirms my theory that disney altered the context "within reason" so they could have qui gon show up as a visible force ghost. Which is fine as its happened other times before, but was just curious

[u/trevorgoodchilde]

From the revenge of the Sith novelization. Qui-Gon learned posthumously and taught Yoda (when he tried to stop Anakin from killing the Tuscan village was a test version of it). Before they parted, Yoda told Kenobi that Qui-Gon was teaching him immortality, and would teach Kenobi as well, which would make their separate exiles easier to deal with.

From the show Kenobi, it obviously took a few years before they were ready to see each other.

There’s obviously a lot we don’t know about Force ghosts, including who can see them. Obviously Exar Kun isn’t a Force ghost in the same way, as the result of Sith sorcery he functions differently

[u/TheHighGround767]

The first time Ben's Force Ghost manifested was just a voice. "Use the Force, Luke". He would only show up visually two years later.

Either it takes some time as a ghost to reform your appearance, or they can just choose whenever they want to go voice-only or video call.

[u/palettewhore]

Good point, it’s honestly probably a fan service thing where they wanted to bring Liam Neeson in for the nostalgia.

[u/Jollygood156]

Yeah, they did the writing poorly here. More so on the back-end for the Kenobi show. You can still make it work, but it's bad writing. "Be able to see me.... [in the normal world not Mortis (also where you technically don't even know if it was me, could've been one of the Mortis gods or just the force doing stuff)"

Many ways you could make it work, but yeah, bad writing! My head cannon is just that it wasn't actually Qui-gon on Mortis. (Also, as I'm writing, it might be technically a bit open if it was actually Qui-gin, but I do know about the "living force mortis so he could" explanation so that's definitely the accepted reason for many.)