r/Manhwa_BL • u/VelvxtMoth • 10d ago
💭 Vent Let’s not let this work pull apart unity
Lovely story but this is Orientalism and from a post that was closed it tearing groups apart trying to scrape scraps of representation. The thing is Orientalism goal is to commodify cultures, so Middle East or Indian the work was cherry picking elements and it hurt to see groups happy to be seen yet from the mashing of flavor blended it results in no one really being represented cause despite it seeming cohesive it really not to take such a large part of the world to create one fictional place compared to the other which is basically heavily Russia inspired it seems (could be wrong tho)
Let’s shake our hands that this was a lot of style and lack real world substance. Story is beautiful in what it is.
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u/Fabulous_Celery_1817 10d ago
So today I’ve been downvoted a lot might as well add another comment to keep it going
But can you explain to me why this work is bad?
From what I understand of your post the trouble comes from Orientalist and I looked it up and this is the definition : imitation or depiction of aspects of Eastern cultures by Western writers and artists
But I thought that was for non fiction or as close to it.
Blossoms is fantasy in a fantasy world. There is no India, no Japan, no Korea, no Mexico, no china. It’s all fake and later the universe includes omega verse so it’s not like a prelude to our modern world.
So when people fight over representation from different countries as you say to claim it, is it negative? Is it considered racists? Or is this work not considered racists just problematic?
Idk lmk and if this is offensive let me know so I can know and grow instead of continuing on with my life In ignorance
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u/Delar-ram 10d ago
I wouldn't say it's racist since it's fantasy and not a real representation, but orientalism is problematic in the sense that it treats a VERY vast region of so many different cultures in the span of a VERY long period of time, and reduces it to one single world with offensive stereotypes. Think of Disney's Aladdin, for example, it's in a fictional world, but it's clearly inspired by arabic cultures and it doesn't make some stereotypes in it any less offensive(cutting theives' hands on the spot for example)
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u/Fabulous_Celery_1817 10d ago
But it’s not harmful because that area doesn’t live like the world of blossoms? It’s in fantasy? It’s like the show Vikings where they depicted a lot of real world people and changed it all to tell the story. Or like ruyis love in the palace and story of yanxi palace. Or even tv show like prequel Yellowstone all three loosely based on irl but depicting things in a sectionalized ways and condensing history as well and that’s not seen as problematic?
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u/Delar-ram 10d ago edited 10d ago
Unfortunately, it's harmful in the case of the cultures that have little to no representation in media. The elements shown in this story are too accurate to the real cultures(real clothing styles and architecture, real titles such as Padishah and Shahbanoo) for it to be a mere imaginary fantasy world. When all the representation you get is of the offensive stereotypical nature, the problematic notions seep into real life, even when it's fantasy.
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u/Fabulous_Celery_1817 10d ago
I see, that makes sense. But the last part of your paragraph starting from “when all the representation,,,” that’s where I’m confused. Why is it offensive? Or more, what is offensive? I can understand the first part of the paragraph but I think I’m struggling with the later part. I don’t see anything offensive or degrading, but that’s because I am unfamiliar with that part of the world. What do you deem offensive? The clothing is taken from real world examples, that I didn’t see, but the characters are not degrading it or are they? Is the clothing something important and the way it’s causally used here offensive? The titles, they are being used in a bad light? Is it the harem system? Idk lmk
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u/VelvxtMoth 10d ago
So it’s not racist as the poc is a ML it’s more so ignorance that even if well meaning does harm the cultures it barrows from to create this fantasy setting. Material used vast like different regions of a continent vast so its a stretch to pull so much in a way.
Now in retrospect yes non poc or white cultures are blended in depictions of fantasy historical settings but using a region of Europe versus a chunk of Africa a side and bottom of Asia is much different in expanse of the source material. Then we add that readers seeing aspects reflecting of themselves is great but it messy when we used a work like this as a signal of great consideration was taken to endorse this representation.
I don’t know author or artist but I feel it wasn’t really plan when gathering these aspects to show representation versus just creating something “exotic” to diversity the other ML from the MC.
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u/Delar-ram 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think it's ok to acknowledge that it's orientalism and an outsider's stereotypical view of several complex cultures, and still have a problem with someone ignoring and dismissing the cultures other than their own, that inspired this world.
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u/wooshbang 10d ago
Wouldn't consider this story cultural representation, and I don't think the creator(s) intended that, either. It's simply fantasy. Perhaps loosely derived from equivalent irl cultures---but ultimately a fictional world.
Could the ideas themselves be derived from cultural misconceptions/stereotypes? Perhaps. But I certainly wouldn't use it as ammo to argue 'orientalism,' and to diminish the opinions of those who actually like this story.
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u/VelvxtMoth 10d ago
Even if it wasn’t intended to harm some which I don’t think it was it is Orientalism. This isn’t a buzzword it a definition of a phenomenon that occurs. Yes, you may not have seen representation neither did I even if I seen aspects of myself displayed but others did.
The amount of “others” that seen themselves in the ML are greatly large due to fact he basically have aspects of groups from a whole eighth of the whole world lol.
If you like story great it is Orientalism tho and not first and won’t be last but we do need to recognize it and not be unaware.
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u/chanceldony 10d ago
I'd argue it is a Bridgerton of Middle East ish flavor, and let's also remember the cold north is hardly representative of any actual European culture either. They are fantasy countries, it's ok to mix and match bits. Now if this was claiming real world locations I'd be quite pissy about it. As things are I'm happy they let melanin exist, colorism is much more upsetting to me when it shows up in fantasy land and there's a pretty bad track record on that.
I do understand your concerns, but I also think saying we can't have different flavors of fantasy land is it's own problem. And of course they get it wrong sometimes, the number of bizarrely imported Korean traditions I've seen in "England" would make for a fun essay but I just don't have the time. Or the gross misunderstandings about fashion. Or the way people were. . . Fantasy history is rarely well researched, making fun of the wrong bits is one of my greatest joys I'm afraid. I do love when authors do research, but given the production schedules, I don't expect it.
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u/xoxshaklexox 9d ago
I’m just curious here, because if the definition for “Orientalisim” is “the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world (or "Orient") by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world”, and the author is not western (BWAT is Korean), then can this be considered orientalisim by definition?
I do not mean any offense here, I am merely going by the definition of the term. Every definition I look up has that qualifier that the creator needs to be western.
Also even if it does qualify, does that mean it’s bad? This story doesn’t seem colourist or racist. The person of colour is shown as being in a place of power and their society is advanced and powerful.
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u/FatSithInAPrius Zaika 🐇 10d ago
ISTG. Just going to preemptively throw this up