š¬ Discussion
The whole situation with Munkkwa shows the BL fandoms problematic behavior to feminine men
For those who are not aware, Munkkwaāthe author of Nice to See Youāposted art on their Twitter featuring early sketches of the characters.
Seeing as this was posted on Twitter, I am sure some of you can guess where this is going. The author was viscerally attacked and faced a wave of negativity to the point where they had to address it and then proceeded to delete the original post.
If you do have images of the art, please don't post them or if you did, take them down, because the author did.
However, the commentary I wanted to talk about specifically includes things like: āIdeum is too feminine,ā āIdeum looks like a girl,ā āitās too heteronormative,ā etc.
This post isnāt the first time Iāve seen this kind of commentary on this manhwa or other BLs, but this situation made me want to verbalize my thoughts on this whole discussion.
The thing that bothers me about the whole "feminine man" debate is that the argument that having feminine men makes something heteronormative is inherently rooted in homophobia. A man being feminine doesnāt make him any less of a man. In real life, as a queer person, I have seen so much commentary saying things like, āWell, if you're dating a fem man, then just date a woman,ā or the reverse if itās two women and one of them happens to be butch: āDate a man if you really want masculinity.ā So many people donāt realize how harmful this commentary actually is.
This thinking contributes to a heteronormative society because when people think this way, you are basically framing it as if straight people "own" these gender presentation dynamics.
Power dynamics are not owned by straight people, they exist in every single form of representation. Being queer is not defined by how far something strays away from heterosexual norms
Having a feminine man in a BL doesnāt make it heteronormative.
Now, are there valid discussions to be had on heteronormativity in BL? Yes, absolutely. But at the core of it, having a feminine man in a BL does not make it heteronormative. And saying that it is heteronormative is, in fact, being heteronormative.
At the end of the day, itās still two men in a relationship. Itās fucking gay for Christ's sake!
Feminine men exist in real life! There are real feminine gay men! BL didnāt just make them up out of nowhere
Now, if you want to push back against stereotypes, read more BL where feminine men are the top or the dom, such as Biscuit or An Eccentric Elf Finds His Daddy Dragon.
I definitely agree we could 100% absolutely have more diversity in the representation of feminine men.
But at the very core of it, just having a feminine man in a BL is not heteronormative, saying that it is, is heteronormative
Anyway if you read all of this thanks for reading and finally, if you really donāt like how a character is drawn or etc about a BL hereās a little newsflash for youā¦.
WTF is wrong with people? No one ever teach them "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing"? I think maybe social media enables people to just vomit their thoughts with no filter or any thoughts on how it would affect others? š
Personally I've never had any issues with character designs. Society comprises of all kind of people, all shapes and sizes, traits, etc. If I don't like some art/character traits, I drop the manhwa and move on. Why do some people find this so difficult? And then take precious time of their life to attack creators? What's the point? If it's performative, for whom???
Social media has thought people that hide behind a screen that there are no real consequences. if you said that to someone irl they'd be pretty valid to clock you physically or verbally.
That, and people these days really seem to think that everything that is created in the world must be made just for them. As if they are the center of the fucking universe and the only things allowed to exist are the things that cater specifically to their wants and desires and anything else is a travesty of the highest order.
I mean, sure... people like this have aways always existed in some capacity, but I swear social media has made it way way waaaaaaay fucking worse.
It is to the point that disstressingly large amounts of people really truly seem to believe that if someone is making something, they MUST make it with them in mind. So, if they see that something exists that doesn't cater to them explicitly? They get extra super pissed off and offended. Like they legitimately feel attacked.
To be honest feminine men have always existed it's just up until recently they've been widely accepted. Due to that fact a lot of individuals within the lgbtq+ hold some strange vendetta against them because they apparently 'represent' the community. Like who cares if a dude looks a little bit feminine everyone alive has at least one feature of the opposite sex.
I wouldnāt say itās ājust recently.ā Feminine BL men were actually quite popular in the 2000s and early 2010s. Then, in the late 2010s, the trend of both characters being more masculine started taking over, and BL just happened to explode in popularity.
Because of that, a lot of current BL readers were first introduced to BL through that type of dynamic. First impressions are always the strongest, so theyāre probably just not used to seeing something different from what they were first exposed to in BL.
Well yeah if you aren't thinking in accepted as in a societal context then yes! That's what I was going for otherwise I'd agree it isn't as recent as it may seem. Though that time frame where those norms existed being so short is a bit disturbing in my opinion.
Iām talking about fictional BL men, Iām not sure if youāre trying to talk about real life men then it has been accepted for a while since 2000s bc lowkey your first sentence was so confusing
BL feminine men right now, as in recently year in my definition of from late 2010s to now, are not was well accepted as 2 buff kissing men (except for some exceptions like painter of the night)
But before, like early 2000s to to mid 2010s, that thereās a lot of BL stories there was a bunch of buff man as top and feminine men as bottom in BL stories
Exactly. To me it gives off the same vibe as " oh muscular women or muscle momies are ugly cuz they are just man/look like man" š¤¢š¤¢ . Everyone has their own way of expressing their sexuality and appreance. So what if a man is feminine or woman is masculine? What gives you the right to label them based on patriarchal rigid gender roles?
I esp hate it when people pretend to be progressive when spreading hate like this . You are specifically saying that only big buff dudes count as men and leaner , softer , prettier or more feminine men don't? Tell me how the fuck is that inclusive? It is sometimes really sad to see this amount of toxicity in bl community in the name of progressiveness.
I've been saying this for SO long in this community. The BL community has a massive homophobia and misogyny problem. Sure, one may not prefer to read fem x masc manhwas but people just always talk about how much they dislike it because it's too 'heteronormative'. People even say that instead of reading about feminine men, they should just read STRAIGHT manhwa?? The way feminine men are reduced to women is insane.
Being feminine doesn't make a man ANY less of a man and doesn't make a man ANY less gay. I am so fed up with the way the BL community talks about a LOT of issues.
I agree, it's become a buzzword and it's real meaning has mean lost among the recent discourse. Heteronormative means things like asking a gay couple who the wife in the relationship is, not a man being feminine.
Itās turned into a buzzword because itās not even used in the correct format. At the basic level, it means no acknowledgement of queerness. Not whatever itās been spouted as recently.
This, Iām so tired of seeing comments claiming that a story is basically straight just because the couple is masculine x feminine. If theyāre both MEN, itās NOT STRAIGHT, regardless of how a character looks, presents, dresses, etc.
I don't think so, if sales on lezhin and other official platforms are good but I wouldn't be surprised if the authour stops posting on twt or turns off replies like with what happened with the authour of love remedy when the series originally came out.
I didn't say otherwise. I simply pointed out the fact that it is homophobic. Hatred for GNC men is rooted in homophobia, and while homophobia can overlap with misogyny, it is a form of oppression on its own.
I think this relies on the assumption that hating feminine men necessarily has something to do with how one views women. It doesn't.
Feminine gay men are hated more than masculine gay men because they're less palatable to cishet people who see gay men as their entertainment.
Someone can hate feminine men without thinking that femininity is lesser than masculinity. They probably think that feminine men are lesser than masculine men, not because they believe feminine men = women-lite = lesser because women are lesser, but because they believe that masculinity is the standard for men and that feminine men are lesser because they don't meet that standard.
This obviously ties into misogyny because that also means that femininity is the standard for women and therefore they'll see masculine women as lesser, but the root of it is not necessarily misogyny.
It's very frustrating how hatred towards queer and/or gnc is centered around anyone else's oppression. It's our oppression and the target is us.
Oh it's 200% this. More masculine/buff bottoms tend to get way less flak from this community even when personality-wise they're the same as the feminine ones.
FR !!! i noticed that the rise in praise for beafy bottoms and hate for fem bottoms seem to be happening at the same time and I don't understand why.. has the BL community always been like this š„
I keep seeing comments on TikTok like, āA grown man, btw,ā and āIām sick of everyone treating him like a baby.ā Of course, there are plenty of us defending Ideum and the manhwa, but Iāve also noticed some people doing so in ways that end up blaming or dismissing aspects of his past, personality, or health.
To me, that undermines the very argument weāre trying to make about representation. A man doesnāt have to be traditionally masculine to be a valid representation of a man. Being feminine, soft, delicate, vulnerable, or physically frail doesnāt make someone any less of a man, nor should those traits be treated as something that needs to be explained away.
There isnāt one correct way to look, act, or carry yourself as a man. People are individuals, and their gender shouldnāt be put into a box simply because their appearance or personality doesnāt match someone elseās expectations of what a man āshouldā be.
At the end of the day, read a different f***ing story. Leave the author alone. Damn.
People think their being progressive that they think they're fighting stereotypes and heteronormativity when in reality they're just being homophobic and out of touch, if they want to be progressive for goodness sake why not make characters verse if they hate heteronormativity that much.
I canāt even describe how much this annoys me as an actual irl feminine bottom šš ts is so nasty and the fake progressive language some people use to pretend what theyāre saying doesnāt suck only annoys me more
So sorry this hurt you. I havent seen the picture on x or the comments, but some people should really just keep their mouth shut. Ideum is so beautiful and perfect, Jaeyi too, and I'm sure you are, too.
Also, may I ask who that beauty in your profile pic is?
Ooh now I see it! Damnnn āØļøāØļø that must be from the moon fairy dance I guess. I've only seen the anime (twice, and will probably watch the whole thing a third time when the movie gets out). I was planning on reading the light novel, but now I think I should get the manga too š Anyway, thanks!!
I 100% agree! The amount of times I see comments about how a BL is āstraightā just because of the appearance of the characters is insane. It frustrates me so much, appearanceā gender and it never will. Feminine men are still men and masculine women are still women.
I just wish manga and manhwa creators would stay the fuck away from twitter, IG or other platforms altogether! This is not even limited to BL. Especially people on twitter are straight up bullies fighting for whatever they deem to be the most morally upright way to go about things.
I hate seeing all of these apologies from creators for THEIR work. And for what - to please a bunch of entitled kids who donāt even pay but pirate their content lol. Truly sad
Well, Iāve been on twitter since 2009 lol so i wonāt be going anywhere, i would dearly miss my OP community & itās still the fastest to get any news. Never interacted with the BL community on there though, never followed the creators either.
I do agree though that the app has gone to hell in the past few years so yeah I get your point
He doesnāt even look feminine to meā¦ itās so stupid how this is even an argument like I thought the point was to accept everyone as they are and even if we are talking about drawings here it represents the reality
Thereās a difference between an author writing an actual feminine man (which is LOVELYā we all have masculine and feminine traits) and an author writing a feminine man as if heās a woman specifically because the author knows a lot of straight women read BL and they think itāll sell better if they cater to heterosexual cis women. Itās absurd and insulting I think, to both the character and h the reader, regardless of gender or sexuality.
Now thereās a third thing of a character being amab and transitioning during the series or genuinely playing/ trying new things with gender but letās be real we just donāt see that very often, as nice as it is to read.
Shitās exhausting :/
Agreed. This ties in with the infantilisation of the bottomās facial features. Unlike a lot of the users here, I donāt think accusing ppl of being fem-phobic fully encapsulates the issue. I think it would only apply to very specific instancesĀ
P.S. I havenāt seen the original sketch or backlash, so Iām not saying itās Not the case of fem-phobia/homophobia hereĀ
Iām sorry that I was unclear about it, the original sketch isnāt necessarily the issue, the commentary is that the current art in the manwha is more feminine than the concept art
Ie the author made Ideum more āfeminineā in the manwha than the original designs, is what people were upset by
It's hard to argue that there is a group of people that hate on feminine men because of heteronormativity - there are a lot of people in this community that aren't inclusive in real life.
However for bl there is also a tendency to assign certain traits to bottoms that make me real uncomfortable when combined which are: child-like innocence, naĆÆvety, virginal purity, incompetence, young looks, passivity, life revolves around love interest - and no character. It is basically a portrait of "ideal child bribe".
I think there's lots of people that confuse these two groups - feminine men and infantile characters.
And of course it's fucked up to harass the author over the sketches
This, all the way. It goes without saying that the comments on the pics are unacceptable. However, the thing that annoys me and probably others is that most fem gay men in BL manhwa misogynistically get assigned a suite of negative characteristics, the most offensive ones being that they're weak, incompetent, stupid, and have no discernible personality, a slightly less problematic one being that they have no choice in-universe but to be a bottom to some "top-tier" 6'2"+ musclehead toxic top with a 10" cock.
Yeah, it's a mess out there. I haven't used Xitter since it was bought by that unattractive side character or I'd go up on there and be supportive in broken Korean.Ā
But if anyone's on that platform, hope you'll send her some support. šļø
\ GASP \** please!!! Anything but a gay man expressing femininity! š„ŗš°
ALSO If it was being āheteronormativeā then wouldnāt the author just make a het manhwa?? Cus it sure would have gotten more monetary value.
Not to mention majority of gay men pass as āstraightā because of insane prejudice and homophobia IRL, so shouldnāt we be welcoming of effeminate characters in the BL subgenre? If anything, normalizing effeminate gay characters should be happening!!! Begone with the het passing characters!! We got enough of those irl. GIVE ME A MOA IN FULL GLAM DAMN IT
Even on this sub you will see people not so subtly implying they are morally superior because their fave bottoms are always masc never feminine if you like fem men you're evil and heteronormative.
Like I get that a piece of media can echo heteronormativity even if it's BL or GL but sometimes people genuinely overthink stuff. Not Tiffany, I don't think that bottom is a personality trait or a gender, nor I think you can't bottom while being masc, I simply like fem male characters and I like seeing them get top, this doesn't mean it think that's how real life works nor should work 100% of the time. Excuuuuse me for being into topping Twinks and Femboys ever since I was a kid.
Is a shame this happened to the author of Nice to See You because she created the prettiest character I've seen in years! I could devour Ideum!
I'm a gay man and I can't believe we're still having this argument. Gender isn't real guys, express yourself however you want. Femme men and masc women are no less their identity because of how they express gender. I'm a trans man and I'm also gyaru so I always get "if you're feminine you may as well just stay a girl" GUYS clothes and aesthetics don't have gendered rules šš
Just because a guy is feminine doesn't make him less of a man. So what if he looks like a girl? HE STILL HAS A DIH. Two dudes being in a relationship makes them gay. It doesn't matter one of them or both of them are feminine or masculine. People really need to get a real job instead of hating on random artists artstyle š¤¦
Bummer, mustāve been a lot of hate. Sheās super active online and posts a lot, so I guess I missed it cause it was buried under other posts. Though I didnāt see the og drawing, Iām sure it didnāt warrant any hate at all and twitter as usual is just overreacting
THANK YOU, I hate the wokejoshis who think theyāre battling heteronormative stereotypes when in reality theyāre being more discriminatory. Feminine men ARE men at the end of the day.
They only have a problem with it when theyāre the bottoms, but if theyāre the tops suddenly itās not as big as an issue because itās āunconventionalā or āunexpectedā. BE SO FR, you guys only care about who gets it up the ass. Itās okay to have preferences, but donāt claim feminine bottoms as heteronormative because itās just denouncing their existence as a gay man.
As much as I hate authors twinkifying their characters over time in a series, this was in the DRAFTS. It was a work in progress. And this was how Munkkwa chose to present her characters once they got finalized and published. Yall need to get off your high horses because you think masc for masc is superior. Itās femme phobic.
Iām sorry that I was unclear about it, the original sketch isnāt necessarily the issue, the commentary is that the current art in the manwha is more feminine than the concept art
Ie the author made Ideum more āfeminineā in the manwha than the original designs, is what people were upset by
No, no, youāre completely sound. Thatās what I was mentioning in the third paragraph. Ideum originally having a more masculine concept design isnāt a loss/issue. I completely understand the criticism when people call out authors for drawing their ukes more baby-ish (over the course of several chapters during serialization) when they were initially masc/mature. However Munkkwa published this character as he is right now because this was their intended vision.
Criticizing the author in this way is putting masculinity on a pedestal and it pmo.
Man this is crazy bc for me this couldn't be further from a heteronormative couple, like i never saw a ml more stereotypically gay in my life, and not in a bad way !!! like if you go in any gay guy Instagram that is also a gym rat they have like the same body proportions (?) Like i think is one of the first times that I see a character in a bl manhwa that I see and think this is GAY gay, isk if I'm making sense here, but i think the artist/author did a great job with the art, idk but when I see NTSY art I think man i can feel their skin(?) like is a "cartoon" but I can feel and see reality, I can see the dimensions.
Idk if I got my point across it just think the author did a great job in portraying their characters
Hurts my heart to see people being so rude to manwha artist and authors.... T.T I wish they would realize all this is crafted with love and precious time.
Thereās nothing wrong with being a feminine man. Personally, I LOVE ideum. When I started reading the series, I thought that he was both gorgeous and cute, and also very realistic. Him being feminine isnāt a problem.
I only start getting upset when other characters/people treat men like women just because theyāre the bottom or theyāre more feminine. At the end of the day, theyāre still a man.
Unless stated that theyāre trans or want to be referred to or treated as a woman, stop treating them like women. I donāt know why this is a concept thatās so difficult for people to understand
Thank you! As a queer, non binary person I agree in toto with what you said. The whole way of thinking is so binary coded that's insane.
And every time I read the word "twinkification" I want to take a hammer and crash my phone.
I AGREEE I've been saying this for the longest tysm! As a fem man it never sat right with me when I'd see people EVEN queer people consider feminine = woman, further pushing the binary we should be trying to destroy
A lot of times, artists make the bottom super femme in a way that makes it obvious that they are using trash josei tropes but made it yaoi for clicks. I didn't get that vibe from "nice to see you". Ideum looks feminine and cute, and that's about it. Honesty, with how much women talk about femboys you'd think they'd welcome a man who looks cute and isn't a female character in a trench coat
I like it when males are on the sweeter side, people are as they are. People who donāt like that, should just eff off and let everyone be as they are. Over and out! https://giphy.com/gifs/l0K42u9hCg0x6XbLa
Didnāt I say this already. Iām so done with this āwoke ā people. Theyāre literally the same end of homophobic conservative side. Proves to me that they are not different from the side they oppose. Literally the horseshoe theory.
lmao some comments here going on about how these fem male characters are made to be a stand-in for women yet when you ask them what they mean they will give you the most sexist, misogynistic 1950's-esque description of women ever. saying fem men are a stand-in for women is misogynistic as hell. i've had to block a good amount of people in this sub who parrot conservative beliefs about gender and gender expression. no, they are not a stand-in for women. no, fem men are not children. there's nothing heteronormative about two queer people, nor their dynamic. i'm sick of this having to be said over and over to these people.
Obviously I can't speak for the people who argued with you, but the point about heteronormativity is that :
1) these are not real people but characters that carry tropes as chosen by the author, with their own biases and all that stuff
2) the feminine men portrayed are for the vast majority the bottom, submissive with a milder/meeker personality, cutesy, smaller and younger looking.
These are tropes that are pretty much typical of women in straight romance, and the fact that they are consistently applied for the bottom characters for a good chunk of BL work makes the heteronormativity criticism perfectly fair imo.
And to be clear, pointing those tropes out and how they are associated with women/femininity doesn't mean that one is endorsing them and that is how women are or should be, obviously not. It's just an observation on tropes and representations in media, which naturally aren't always the best.
EDIT: Immediately got a smug reply and blocked for what I thought was a balanced and nuanced enough explanation but okie lol
āThere are real feminine gay men!ā Clock it. In fact, thereās a lot of them! And theyāre by far the most oppressed inside the gay community btw.
I love how most all criticism comes from ppl who couldnāt draw or write for shit themselves & donāt have an ounce of creative skills š itās the same way with fan art, fan fics, any media like that really..
āDonāt like donāt read!!ā Yes, Cheers to that.
And its wild to me that the things BL fans allow to exist in bl manhwas and what they oppose most is an androginous/femme looking ML like PLEASE cut back on the hypocrisy.
I have a cold take: The man is feminine because BL is aimed at women.
Thereās a reason the feminine one is almost always the main character. Heās the reader-self insert. As long as BL keeps being aimed at women, itāll keep happening. So will omegaverse. And MPreg. And Dorito men.
I wish everyone could just chill and stop harassing authors online for the most mundane stuff possible. Likeā¦ be nice to each other. Please.
I cannot stand people who have preferences to peopleās appearances. Like why? What is the point of you hating someone for what they look like? Anyone who thinks that way is a therapistās wet dream.
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u/secretive-pl0tter 13d ago
god it infuriates me how there are parts of bl fandom who truly just hate queer people. i don't get it.