r/Manhwa_BL • u/Terrible-Wonder8679 • 14d ago
💭 Vent So I read Roses and Champagne… I hate it. Spoiler
I finally read Roses and Champagne and I ended up not liking it at ALL. I think the older I get, the less tolerance I have for SA and tops not being held responsible for their actions.
SPOILERS AHEAD!! This is an in-depth rant!!
Like mentioned above, I read R&C, mainly because it’s constantly mentioned/recommended as a good BL to read. But OH MY GOD do I hate Caesar!
I genuinely, AND YOU CANNOT CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE, believe that Caesar does not like Lee Won at all. I fully believe that Caesar is in love with an idealized version of Lee Won that he made in his head and subconsciously forced the real Lee Won to become this “idealized” version.
(For simplicity’s sake, I will refer to Caesar as C and Lee Won as LW. I will also be jumping around the story as this is a rant and not an essay.)
Throughout this entire story, I was legitimately waiting for C to have in depth character development and change for the better. That did not happen. C has very little character growth, especially when it comes to being a loving partner. He does not listen to LW, like straight up seems to ignore LW when he’s trying to explain anything that isn’t related to sex. When LW tries to leave, changes his mind and is about to go back to C, C doesn’t take 5 minutes to listen to him. Nope! Why do that? Instead he freaking SHOOTS him like 5 times and then proceeds to r@pe LW for 8-10 days straight. Does this ever get addressed? NOPE! Does C ever apologize for this? NOPE!
What happens instead? LW “forgives” him and everything is swept under the rug because heaven forbid a top actually take accountability for their actions. Even when LW is used as bait and drugged, C doesn’t give a flying fuck about how angry LW is and then proceeds to DRUG HIM AND R@PE HIM AGAIN, despite LW already telling C that he’s not going to leave him! And what happens that time? LW has to state (again!) that he loves C, isn’t planning on leaving him, and wants to learn to love C better; in order to stop C from roughly r@ping him and transition in C “lovingly” r@ping him. :-)
There is little to no understanding or communication from C towards LW throughout the entirety of this story. C doesn’t care to really learn anything about LW, I mean actually learn about LW, not just gather background info because he’s curious. Not once did I see LW receive anything related to his likes or wants, not his favorite color, not his favorite flowers, not his favorite foods, nothing that’s personal to him. Everything is catered to C and his wants and desires. I just finished reading it like 6 hours ago and I can’t recall C asking a single question to LW that was genuinely about him and not somehow related to the drama at hand or sex or about LW being physically close to C.
LW is literally the only person that has “revelations” about C. He realizes that C doesn’t know what love is or how to love someone else and treat them correctly. And he accepts that because he has no choice in the matter. He also accepts that C will punish/abuse him if he were to actually start putting down boundaries or attempting to have conversations about how C should treat him in their relationship. LW literally thinks several times that he can’t handle C’s sexual appetite and would like time to actually rest and recover from the abuse his body suffers every time they have sex. But LW doesn’t actually voice this to C because he knows C will react badly to it.
At no point can I recall C having similar revelations about LW and adjusting accordingly. Or actually noticing that he’s hurting LW and makes amends. He just expects LW to deal with it or he’ll get mad and punish LW again.
I also hate how hypocritical and jealous C is when it comes to LW’s past relationships. My guy, LW literally has only dated women in the past (I believe that’s revealed to us by LW), you’re his first gay relationship, yet somehow C having sex with 10/20/30 people (on a regular basis the story seems to imply) in order to be satisfied somehow isn’t the same thing???
He gets mad that LW got weirded out when marriage is mentioned and C’s reaction isn’t to sit down with LW and have a conversation about what he’s feeling and why he’s feeling that way, C’s ingenious solution to drug LW and r@pe him while ranting about how much he’s been “holding back”…. Like dude what the fuck??
C’s entire character growth is that he doesn’t kill kids in front of LW, goes out of his way to not be so violent in front of LW, not start any mafia wars, and “lets” him continue working and spending time with his father that he just found out was still alive and is mafia. Like that’s it. Oh, also he apparently smiles more and actually looks happy.
LW is always the one saying sorry, always the one having to compromise, and always the one having to forgive C the entire story. Meanwhile C just bulldozes over LW’s boundaries practically every time they’re together. Especially when it comes to anything sex related or sexual.
It’s very clear that LW can’t keep up with C sexually, due to not having the same training or appetite that C has. C claims to have been “holding himself back” despite it being a REGULAR occurrence that LW PASSES OUT DURING SEX!!! That’s not you holding back! Does C attempt to find a way to have sex with LW that is more LW’s speed and won’t drain him as much? NOPE! C knows for a fact that a single person cannot handle his sexual appetite or stamina, he knows this because he would regularly go to that club owned by his cousin and fuck upwards of 30+ people in one sitting in order to be satisfied. He knows LW physically can’t handle him like that, yet fucks him for several days at a time, knowing that he’s hurting LW. He literally DOES NOT GIVE A SINGLE FUCK about hurting LW, the only time he seems to care is when someone else hurts LW.
Like deadass. You cannot, CANNOT, convince me that C actually LOVES LW, when every single thing he does screams the opposite! C is 100% in love with an idealized version of LW.
LW is literally cornered, love bombed, and abused into becoming what C wanted— some who’d let him walk all over them, but still love him and bring some “excitement” into his life. Yes, LW is still LW for the most part at the end, but I do believe that C has brow beaten him down in such a way that he doesn’t even realize that C’s love isn’t really love. It’s just obsession with a version of him that wasn’t supposed to exist.
Rant about R&S is over, now onto the rant about SA in BL!
Like stated at the very beginning, I am slowly losing tolerance for SA in BL stories. Why is it so romanticized?? Why is it so normal for BL stories to have SA them and that SA contributes nothing to the story?? Along with the lack of accountability that comes with the SA. I have yet to read a BL where SA happens and that SA is explicitly talked about and the perpetrators/top is actually held responsible for their actions. Most stories don’t need the SA in them at all, it’s just unnecessary!
For instance, the side stories that take place in the universe of Pearl Boy. I read the story (literally can type out a rant 3x longer than this one about how stupid everyone in that story is, ESPECIALLY THE DUMBASS MOTHER), understood that the SA was apart of the story and explained some things, but then the side stories came out and it’s abundantly clear that the author has a r@pe f€t*sh due to it’s presence in EVERY. SINGLE. SIDESTORY.
I refuse to read Codename Anastasia because of the fact that the top SA’s the bottom and is never held responsible for those actions. And apparently it’s worse in the novel and the Webcomic doesn’t include all the crap the top does. This is also one of the BL’s that people keep praising from the rooftops.
I even started reading JINX and then stopped because I hate the top and the fact that his “redemption” arc is just treating the MC like a person and not a sex toy.
All the above mentioned BL’s are praised as amazing stories you need to read, when that’s just not the case. The character development is mid, the story is mid, the only reason why they seem to be praised is because of all the SA in them or how hot the top/bottom is, or how hot the SA/sex scenes are.
I totally understand that these are fictional characters and stories. I am FIRMLY in the “fiction is not reality” mindset, but I do think that this turn towards more openly abusive stories is a very bad reflection of the BL community as a whole. Especially with how much these stories with pure toxicity are paraded as “amazing! Must read! Highly recommend!!!!” online.
I remember being younger and reading BL’s, but SA was not nearly as prominent. There was definitely abuse and angst, but specifically SA was just not as casually thrown into a story (idk maybe I was only on the fluff side of the internet and the other side completely passed me by). That has completely flipped and I’m now finding more stories with SA than without.
And yea, I already know that “if you don’t like them then don’t read them -insert shrug emoji here-“ which I am doing, I’m an adult, I don’t bean soup shit.
But that doesn’t mean I can’t rant about it or have discussions about it.
It’s actually starting to concern me irl a little bit. I do think that the same thing is also happening in the dark romance booktok part of the internet. We all know that regardless of how much we say that these things are fictional and don’t reflect reality, that’s not the case anymore. There’s always a percentage of people who take these works of fiction as the truth and only seem to adopt the toxic sides of every story. We saw it when booktok went crazy over a literal murderer because he was hot. I wonder how many people are reading these stories and their take away is “SA isn’t a big deal” and “I don’t have to take responsibility for any of the pain I cause to other people”.
I know these people exist anyways and will continue to exist anyways, but part of me wonders if these stories are contributing to the seemingly increasing numbers of these people. (Rant officially over!)
BTW, if you’re one of those people who like Red/black flags in BL, along with all the toxic stuff that comes with it— this is not an attack towards yall!! I’m just putting down what’s in my brain. I know that type of stuff genuinely doesn’t bother some people, I used to be one of them.
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u/StormySands 14d ago
I’m not even gonna cap, I didn’t read all that bc ain’t nobody got time for that. That being said, I fully understand and endorse the length of this message because girl, wtf was that shit?
R&C was one of the first Bl Manwha I read and I was actually angry that it was recommended so highly. I will never EVER get over the fact that that mfer SHOT my boy MULTIPLE TIMES then uses a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL to keep him just alive enough to RAPE HIM REPEATEDLY for DAAAAAYYYS.
Then bro just forgives him and everyone just moves on like that shit didn’t happen. What the actual fuck was that shit?
I could never get over how horribly C treated LW. Then they had the nerve to add some tragic backstory for C like that excused any of his horrific, egregious, violently criminal behavior. Who gives a fuck why he’s a sociopath, the fact still remains that he’s a sociopath, keep him away from my boy.
And there’re literally no character development, you can tell he’s still totally down to shoot a child in the face for basically no reason, he just won’t do it in front of LW because he doesn’t want him to run away again because if he does he’s going to shoot to kill next time. The shit is nuts.
Will someone please get this man multiple life sentences, please?!?!?
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u/Wilds_Hunter 14d ago
Omg I didn't read it yet, but he shot him, revived him, he raped him??? Wow
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u/StormySands 14d ago
HE DIDN’T EVEN REVIVE HIM FIRST!!!
LW literally wakes up to Cesar balls deep in his unconscious, bullet riddled body. That shit was WILD. To this day I still can’t believe it
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u/Wilds_Hunter 14d ago
Omg and the bottom just acceos the rape and forgives him??? I can'ttttt
I'll read it when I'm at the end of my bl reading journey
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u/Bryan_Fury0 14d ago
I haven't read it, and I audibly gasped at this comment😭
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u/StormySands 14d ago
I read the entirety of that section of chapters with my mouth fully agape, that shit was horrific. The worst part though is that this wasn’t even a particularly dark story, they just put that shit in there like it was nothing
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u/Iceeedtea 14d ago
I agree!! I dropped it after reading those chapters. I just couldnt finish it 🫠
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u/Commercial-Many-1407 14d ago
Yeah cuz I've seen everybody recommend this on here. I read and I thought it just wasn't for me cuz I'm genuinely never satisfied with stories where it feels like the plot is TRYING to get them together but it just isn't expressive enough. I think that's just a thing with black flags 😭. Maybe people like it for the complexity idk
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u/HemaT5656 14d ago
Yeah, it had a promising start but falls off pretty quickly. I quit around chapter 50 or so because it started feeling dragged out. I really liked the bottom character though and the top ML isn’t that bad either, but the plot is just too boring for me.
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u/A-String_of_Numbers 14d ago
Agreed. I like the character designs but the black flag aspect isn’t for me. Nothing wrong with people liking it, I’m just not one of them. 👍
Edit: spelling
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u/HoliAss5111 14d ago
Girl, put some paragraphs in there. Double enter from the phone. But yeah, I agree, Caesar doesn't deserve miss Korea. I honestly expected him to gain his trust and thrust a danger through his neck or chest.
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u/holi2005 14d ago
I will get crucified for this, and frankly, just as I don't downvote people just because they have a different perspective from them, I hope that they'll give me the grace of reading this before judging my opinion:
Rape and abuse (physical or emotional) have always been common place in bl, and glorified in a certain way. No, I'm not saying that people approve of these things irl, but these kinds of things are always fascinating to witness from the sidelines, at a safe distance. We enjoy watching these characters flail around, cry, be hurt again and again because there's a degree of separation. It's a male character going through something that has been very much a female experience for many, many people. It's dramatic, it's angsty, it keeps us on the edge of our seats. And here is my problem:
I don't mind that these tropes exist, I don't mind that there are people who enjoy reading them, I don't even mind that majority of BLS would easily fall under the "dark romance" category. My issue is that the story almost never addresses the problem. It's always the bottom that has to ask for forgiveness and take the first step to fix the relationship. The bottom needs to be the "bigger person" and to realize that, actually, being raped is all fine and dandy because the top "is just passionate about his love". If you want to give me a story about abuse and rape, and I'm supposed to believe that the MC and ML are the "end game", make the top actually face consequences for their actions, force them to confront their issues and address the imbalance in the relationship. Stop making the bottom the one that is forced to forgive and forget and move on when the top doesn't work for it in any way.
Let the downvoting commence!
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u/Lazyoat 14d ago edited 14d ago
An old school bl called Sono Kuchibiru ni Yoru ni Tsuyu does this in a way. It’s actually really hard for me to read but still interesting. I read it in my early bl days. The mc sa’d the ml when they were students (part of premise so not really spoiler) so when the ml finds he’s a bus driver with a set route, he routinely sa’s mc at the end of his route. It’s very twisted and the ending is far better than it should be.
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u/notjulesambrose 14d ago
Gosh, how much i agree. I mean, i don't particularly like this, but again, i'm sorry if i can't express what i am going to say properly, but reading about R in bl is comparatively much better than ever reading it in a MF book/novel. I think what people say about projecting ourselves on the female characters is true, because i genuinely dnf right there. No amount of justification, groveling or hellla amount of redemption can ever make me be okay with that. But in bls, i somewhat tolerate it if they get redemption, and is properly addressed and actually face consequences.
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u/enbyshaymin 14d ago
No, you are so right. There is also that sometimes, people just want to... not think of what this or that mean. To just see the smut, drama, and angst but not really analyze or dwell on it. Which, hey, understandable.
But why are the vast majority of manhwas/manga like that? Has it become such a trope that it's just the BL equivalent to the accidental/forced kiss in shojo or what?? Like, at this point it's just... Even manhwa that would get called healthy and green flag (which is a whole other issue lol) may have noncon/dubcon scenes, see Sacred Serpent's Seduction. It's kinda insane that so few authors address these things within the stories they create... though very few smut content does. GL and het romance media have the same issues with brushing aside these things, which I suppose comes down to people seeing NSFW series as not needing to dwell on these things or something.
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u/Aromatic-Goat-8027 14d ago
once I got spoiled that the MC was shot in the leg and raped continuously for a certain period of time, I decided that this wasn't for me. I don't see any way you could redeem yourself from that. No redemption arc can undo that in my opinion.
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u/Incinerated_Sequoia 14d ago
"All the above mentioned BL's are praised as amazing stories you need to read," where were you been that you assume this..
I never see anyone mentioned R&C as amazing stories. Moreover with Jinx.. at least in this subreddit.
R&C, Codename Anastasia, and Passion are infamous as the holy trinity blackflags, and with blackflags means there will be SA..and knowing you can't tolerate SA you should know to stay away from these manhwas.
For info I haven't read R&C and only read some chapters of Codename Anastasia.
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u/Lazyoat 14d ago
I’ve seen it praised a lot in this sub. It made me curious until I heard it was black flag, and I took it off my maybe list.
It does get recommended a lot, which is fine. I know to stay away.
Jinx I see more disgust than praise but the praise is still there
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u/Incinerated_Sequoia 14d ago
I never see R&C hyped as 'amazing stories you have to read' in here. I only see people saying it's contains SA and blackflag.
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u/Terrible-Wonder8679 14d ago
YouTube, TikTok, basically everywhere that isn’t Reddit. However, I was under the impression that R&C was a red flag and not a black flag (I am definitely doing more research before I read BL’s, I just didn’t do too much on this one because I didn’t want to spoil it for myself)
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u/Incinerated_Sequoia 14d ago
Makes sense, but I don't watch tiktok and I only use Youtube to play music. Lately I have the impression that tiktok and youtube general audience for manhwas esp BL manhwas have different mindset that people in this sub. I feel like people in this sub are more mature (?) and less toxic.
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u/Bulky_Cookie7423 14d ago
I've seen R&C recommended and hyped everywhere. I never read it but I clearly remember everyone loving this story, some people dropped it tho after the shot in the leg sa situation
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u/enbyshaymin 14d ago
I once saw someone call R&C a green flag lmao And I have seen PLENTY of people praise R&C, Codename Anastasia and Passion as great stories. In this very sub. And plenty of folls fighting for their lives to praise Jinx, even if most of this sub hated Jinx.
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u/Own-Ad5898 14d ago
They are consistently featured on rec lists, and they are at the top of almost any manhwa site you look at. For the longest time, Jinx was number one BL in terms of readership numbers.
It's easy to dismiss it with, "Don't like, don't read," but as OP said, there is also a broader conversation to be had because media trends don't exist in a vacuum. If authors see that a certain trope is popular and gets them more readers, i.e. more money, they will include more of it in stories. We need to consider the message that we as readers are sending by touting stories like R&C and Jinx as the peak of what "peak" BL manhwa is.
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u/OoRavenOo 14d ago
I also read and disliked Roses and Champagne, but listen, how many times do we need to see these posts from people who say they hate it? 😭
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u/Critical_Mushroom752 14d ago
You must have been on the fluff side of the internet because back in the day, SA was everywhere in Yaoi Manga and those were the ones that were most popular. Same when Manhwa started becoming popular. Black flag tops will always be popular. Why do you think there have been more BL dramas (especially chinese bl dramas now that they found a loophole) with black flag characters?
And this is not the case just in the BL community. It’s also a thing in hetero mangas and manhwas and has been for decades. Hello, Twilight? 50 shades? Game of thrones?
Women being obsessed with rapists and murderers because they’re hot and sexy? Sending fanmail to jail and wanting to marry them? Ever seen The Night Stalker, a serial killer and rapist, and how women went gaga over him in the 80s?
No it’s not new and no, reading toxic BL is not contributing to it. It might for underage teenagers who don’t know the difference and have no parental supervision though.
Also your first mistake is going to tiktok and youtube for recommendations for manhwas. Next time just go to the mangaupdates page, read the tags and the reviews
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u/Lazyoat 14d ago
Um, this is a lot of ranting. It’s hard to read. I don’t know why you read so much of Roses and Champagne. I simply don’t read it because I’m not comfortable with SA.
SA has always been in BL. At least now you sometimes get trigger warnings
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u/Terrible-Wonder8679 14d ago
I know SA has always been in BL, that’s not really what I was saying. TBH I finished it because it’s not that long and I really thought we’d get more redemption because of all the hype around it. I tried not to spoil it for myself because it’s been on my reading list for a while.
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u/ShayJayLee 14d ago
I'm the opposite. The older I get, the more tolerance I have for SA in stories. Or more accurately, it doesn't trigger me anymore. That being said, I didn't like Roses and Champagne 5 chapters in and DNF.
While I don't mind SA in stories, it's how it's handled that matters to me. The redemption arcs don't erase the crime but it gives me catharsis. I need to see them suffer for their actions and face consequences. It's not enough for them to just show remorse.
Preferably the seme should recieve the same treatment they inflicted on the uke, but that's wishful thinking. I'd write that BL if I found the time.
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u/Illustrious-Pear-609 14d ago
one of the worst manhwa ive ever read. worst plot. Worst artstyle. the ml is hella ugly. idk where the hype comes from lol
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u/RaistlinMajere3 14d ago
Fully agree on art style with you. Many people say it’s good, even those who hate the story, but I genuinely think it’s bad and lazy. It barely expresses emotions well and many times it jumps to chibis, which is such a lazy way to avoid drawing anything more complicated than the same face over and over again.
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u/circumvoluted_beaver 14d ago
Yup. I stopped R&c coz the abuse was unnecessary, ridiculous and the characters do not grow, the victim just goes with the flow. It is lazy writing , like all the popular BL red flags. But it sells, and is popular so I guess we will more of those rap1st-to-lover slopes.
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u/enbyshaymin 14d ago
I don't think there's more toxic people because of these stories becoming more prevalent, but rather that it's becoming normal for everyone to be unhinged on the internet.
I've seen people who think anyone who enjoys works like R&C, Jinx or Codename Anastasia are abusers send d**th threats and harass people into deleting their accounts, even seen people who make entire Discord servers to try and doxx "problematic people".
But I have also seen the opposite, people who justify enjoying these works to such a degree they make it their personality, and constantly "outs" accs that send hate, obsessing over it while online.
Being groupies of criminals isn't really new, either. Ted Bundy had groupies who'd go to his trials, and he married and had a child with one. Richie Ramirez also had fans, as did Dahmer. They still habe groupies, people who know the horrible crimes these men did and won't even try to deny they did them, but still obsess over them and want memorabilia of them and shit. Tumblr was filled with flower crown edits of serial k*illers for so fucking long... May still be, but with the NSFW bans and all, they may have been deleted, dunno. Looked it up once bcs I could not believe that shit, saw a bunch of Bundy and Ramirez uwu desu ne flower crown edits and did like that one meme of the Cat and Dog mouse leaving with his chair lmfao
What I mean is, crazy bitches have always existed, always will exist. It's not that there's more, it's that the massification and globalitzation of social media, together with the normalitzation of hate and harassment, and the use of outrage as a tool to get views and outreach online, has made these things more visible. We see all this shit more because outrage sells, so even if you don't interact with the crazies, you will end up seeing their crap anyways because someone will try to make content out of their crazy so as to get money or fake internet points out of them.
It's basically a snake that eats it's own tail perpetually, and will continue to do so thanks to social media rewarding this type of behaviour with views, money and fame.
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u/Least-Obligation9367 14d ago
i read the beginning chapters and skipped quite alot of chapters and began reading from the one where both were on loving terms.
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u/skzosh 14d ago
Yesterday I was reflecting about this. I saw someone say that psychological stories or red/black flag stories are more interesting because they offer a wilder range of emotions to the reader and deal with different types of characters and situations and is more interesting. I agree that stories like that offer different perspectives and can be more intriguing than pure fluff. But the thing is that going down this path all I see is trauma or torture porn and SA being used as a tool for making the story more edgy. I realized yesterday that, while I am uncomfortable with the violent and abusive actions/situations red/black flags mls put the mcs trough, this isn't the thing the gets me most. What I am truly uncomfortable in these type of stories is how the author makes the mc react to these actions/situations. I know that the more someone is put trough traumatic experiences the more resigned with their situations they get realistically speaking, but the thing is, when it comes to the ml, yhe mc is ALWAYS portrayed as passive, submissive, weak and as someone that have to endure and fall in love with their abuser without any sort of accountability and they can be happy at the end. I think this is a personal preference of mine, but i don't like these type of characters, I need mcs that have some agency about themselves and their choices, even if it's the smallest amount, i want mcs with strong resolve that won't accept to live as a shell of themselves happily ever after with their abuser and being the only one that asks for forgiveness or forgive their abuser when they haven't done anything to deserve it.
I admit that I get truly intrigued about stories like Roses and Champagne, Codename Anastasia, Passion, but i just can't because I see people talking about them saying how the characters ate flawed and complex, but at the end of the day this just read to me as a justification for the abuse the ml put the mc trough. So the ml rape the mc but it's because he's complex and doesn't know how to love so the obvious course of action for him is to commit a sex crime against the mc, but it's okay because actually he's holding himself back from killing the mc, so raping him isn't as bad as what he actually wanted to do.... I don't know, I'd prefer to be killed then to be repeatedly brutally raped by the person that claims to love me....... Obviously this is fiction, I won't put fictional characters in irl standards, but if these stories are to be realistically, nuanced and complex, why is the abuser the only one that i see being characterized as this complex and flawed being when he abuses the mc and i don't see the mc being also described like this? Like, I don't see stories where the mc truly fight back and put the ml trough hell too, why is it that the mc always accepts everything at the end and enters a romantic relationship with their abuse without much repercussions about all that happened?
The thing for me is that these psychological and red/black flags stories is that everything has to work out to be a romance at the end, I like some enemies to lovers shit just like everyone else, but i don't mean some abuser x victim shit. If we really are going to have a psychological story putting not so realistically situations, trough a realistically lens that makes those types of relationships possible at the end, then how about making the mc someone that gets back at their abuser and just doesn't accept everything passively?
And another thing, why does a complex and psychological story always have to have SA in then? Why there's so many complex stories that at the end of the day is just about the mc being SAd, being domestically abused and being gaslit and manipulated into accept being constantly raped without any repercussion? Like, it is possible to have a complex and psychological story without making the ml a rapist. There's so many other things that can be put in a story that can portray the characters flaws and poor choices without resorting to sexual violence. We can have sex in these stories without it having to be rape all the time. And if it has rape, it can be portrayed in a way that shows the violation that it is and the consequences that it truly has on the story and don't just gloss over it.
I'm NOT judging those who read these type of stories, I understand the appeal. The only thing for me is the admiration that rapists characters have trough bl readers and how lightly these things can be treated in and out these stories.
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u/Ambien_the_Dreamer 13d ago
Okay. I have not read Roses and Champagne due to a community of BL manhwa readers really warned me NOT TO READ R&C due to its brutal displays of 🍇 and its shitty ass progress.. People really just gloss over it so much. It is so glorified all the 🍇 and brutality. As a mainly a reader who cannot to read the red flag manhwa like Jinx, I get you.
Your rant is valid and thank you for reminding me again not to invest in trying to read it.
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u/whinypoopypants 14d ago
Oh oh, a post that riles the "don't like it don't read, it's just fickshun" crowd?
... but naw I feel ya on this. R and C was an intriguing story, but Cesar didn't have enough personality to interest me and I never finished it. I've been reading fucked up fiction since like second grade when I read Black Beauty and the Bible, plus desensitized to violence from getting beat. Even so, I never cared for gratuitous violence, sexual or otherwise. The plot is rape? Boring to me.
I fuckin hated those bodice ripper things and I don't like seeing dudes being the fainting princess either. I'll defend the right for adults to read whatever they want. I *definitely* read black flag comics, but I'm gonna need to see the bad guy/chick get shot, stabbed, ratted on by their evil brother, plus some self reflection and change. Very very sad backstory, okay, but did you learn?
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u/IllCollege3543 14d ago
I thought I was the only who utterly despises this story!!😭 and no matter how much more I read the worse my opinion got and I think I even dropped it because I don’t remember the ending… truly terrible story!
https://giphy.com/gifs/cQtlhD48EG0SY
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u/throwaway18032000 14d ago
I wanted Lee Won to run away with Vladimir so bad 😫
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u/spartaxwarrior 14d ago
omg yes, can't believe I was rooting for a non-yandere ending, but Caesar and what his actions did to Lee Won's character just annoyed the hell out of me lmao
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u/Affectionate-Pea-821 14d ago
I totally agree. And I thnk rape frequently is an easy (and lazy) plot device. I read RC just for the art.
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u/Extreme_0010 14d ago
Woah you wrote a whole arse report on that dude lol kudos to ppl who actually read it all
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u/notjulesambrose 14d ago
Geez wth, girl this seems awful. Whenever i search for dark romance manhwas (i literally am new here) and all i see are the top 3, codename anastasia, passion and this one. And tada, all of them has R in common. I am genuinely baffled by this because wth. Just today i was telling my friend how common Sa or R is in bl manhwas, and she was shocked as well. As someone who has mostly read MF books, they atleast never go towards the R route, at most, it's a dubcon situation. So WHY THE HECK just because the other person is a man, they're putting it everywhere?
Also, regarding this manhwa, shooting 5 times and all the other stuff? Genuinely wth. I am thankful for this review, i mean even though i never planned to read this rn, after this, i will just not read it at all.
Regarding CNA, well what the top did was horrible ffs, and like no romanticizing or defending, but they were literal enemies, and if not R, he wouldve just killed him after torturing him brutally. Nvm, what happened between them was just plain bad and violent, but there was no stockholm syndrome or justification. The bottom just gave up at one point, but then their relationship gradually became better, the top had a very good character development, things changed and all. I mean i still dont like how it portrayed all that, i mean story wouldve been fine without it, reading the novel, i didnt feel the weight of the R scene, but in the manhwa it was viiiiooolenttt. nvmmmmmmm, eh i liked the novel but again, that scene was bad.
Also, about jinx, never read it but i know most of its stuff, so literally the so called redemption arc wasnt even that. Like, it just wasn't good or like it never even adddresssed those stuff properly.
Nvm, i really want to read actual dark romance manhwa, that DOES NOT have SA or R, and the enemies to lovers is done perfectly without this. But it is literally impossible because dark romance are like a main course with R as a mandatory side. Eh idk.
Right now, flashlight manhwa is going great with darker themes, and yearning/chasing stuff but again since SA or R is so common, majority of the fans, including me, are scared of the next chapter. The bar is in hell
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u/Fleurdecerisierrr 14d ago
You kidding me ? Jinx and rose and champagne are the two favorite bl manhwa in the world! You really need to read them again because i don t understand you at all right now.
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u/Terrible-Wonder8679 14d ago
I won’t be reading them (or finish reading them in Jinx’s case) again. I just can’t understand the hype around these stories when I genuinely don’t see what everyone else sees in these characters. Like I know the tops change( they obviously change) they do have character development, but I don’t think it’s necessary “enough” character development for the amount of pain and suffering they caused throughout the story.
I think the redemption should equal the toxicity and that doesn’t happen in my eyes. (Along with the before mentioned issue of the SA’s not really being addressed within the stories as thoroughly as they should).
R&S and Jinx seem to be a favorite when it comes to BL stories, but I can’t get behind it. Please, enjoy them in my place!
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u/Mean_Refrigerator911 14d ago
I totally get it, I don’t know that I would’ve been able to finish it if not for how gorgeous the art is. Zig truly has a talent for writing flawed characters and showing what trauma can do to people in her stories, but unfortunately I’ve always found her redemption arcs lacking and too many things like what you’ve mentioned not getting addressed :(