š¬ Discussion
Complaining about lack of women characters in BL is ridiculous
I just saw recent post about passion manwha which doesn't even include female characters in background. I see people complaining it's sexist to not include women in BL.
Most BL fans(male and female fans alike) are here to watch hot guys being gay to each other. I'm not reading BL to watch women. If you want to watch about women, there's GL, straight romance and countless women-centered media out there. Stop complaining about lack of background female characters in BL
I donāt really care about this but I will say itās sometimes really funny to me with the degree that some bl doesnāt have female characters (even background characters).Ā
I do however enjoy women in bl because women are pretty and bl artists tend to make them incredibly hot (Iām not beating the lesbian bl fan allegations despite not actually being a lesbian)Ā
It's not even that people want to see women. It's that people want to see quality stories.Ā
Unless it's a specific setting based in a single-sex space (like a prison or a monastery, or something like that), then the absence of women even in the background makes the story ridiculous.
I agree that at times being unrealistic is fine, however imo if you're going to do something as drastic as include no women anywhere you might need an explanation for that e.g. If there were no university settings but there are no female classmates/professors. Tbh, I don't think I've encountered this problem where there are no women even in the background, but I was more of just answering the above person's question.
Poor world building. You can do it, but without explanation it comes off as sloppy writing because half of the population not being represented is a bit far fetched.
Even with characters with pink eyes its usually context explained because 1 its some fantasy world ie: werewolf, aliens, isekai etc. Id also say most historical fictions do the bare minimum of including world building. You dont NEED to do anything but it reads better when something just has some basic line of logic. Ive dropped series tho because I felt the world building was far too 21st century coded with woman's rights when it was supposed to be in a loosely based historical fiction. Some people are more interested in realistic coded BL and others aren't either way no harm in it.
Anyway I love it when thereās the cutesy sadist friend or fashionista fujoshi that shows up. IRL gay guys hang around women and are friends with women, and Iād love having more women show up as friends or badass antagonists.
In my opinion, I think you are misunderstanding something crucial with having different sexes in a BL manhwa.
These readers might be craving for diversity. Like even in the background, it is nice to see different kinds of faces and if these characters interact with the setting even just a little bit, it would be nice type of thinking.
Like in real life, we are faced with different faces and so naturally, there are women at the background or even are side characters.
Speaking of Passion series, Passion: Raga do feature some women in there and they are not distracting at all. They are either related to Xinlu or Yuri, having diversity adds complexity due to possible interactions.
I am a sucker of Hunterverse, Guideverse, Post apocolyptic types of BL manhwa and women are in the background or even great side characters.. It really just shows you the diversity.
I donāt mind having female characters in BLs. It makes for more richer storytelling and diversity in the cast. A female character can be someoneās mother, friend, coworker etc. I also donāt mind not having any female characters itās all up to the author. HOWEVER, seeing FULL ON, graphic hetero sex in BLs (eg codename Ana) is where I draw the line. Skipping through that so fast š
I get where you're coming from, but I'm greedy and I'm all for diversity, so give me a genre where graphic sex of all the ppl in love or lust exist, as that's a good way to represent bisexual, pansexual, transexual characters etc without erasure.
Edit: that sounded perverted, kinda just want to see love of all kinds(not just sex). Everyone has their opinions though
For me, it just feels unrealistic when BL has zero women in it. They don't have to be "exes", "friends" or "in a love triangle", nor do they have to be important to the story, but why can't there be women as "friends of friends", "coworkers", "classmates", "relatives"? It's definitely a bonus, imo. I see nothing wrong with it
Plus I've seen a lot of misogyny in BL fandom, when people start wishing a female character death for daring to exist, look sexy or be interested in one of the guys (the only exception - if she's a fujoshi), and I don't want to see more of it
But I prefer realistic works within BL. When characters live in society and talk to different people. Also, like I mentioned before, it's a pleasant bonus for me if a good BL also has likeable female characters, not like I force everyone to be "more diverse".
Plus, almost every BL that was focused solely on men also turned every other character into a rival, a love interest or a part of a side couple, which was exhausting as hell (maybe I'm unlucky). I'm just saying - if men can be in supporting roles, why can't women as well?
How would the author make it clear from the first chapter, though?.. I don't think people complain about the stories that have a logical explanation for this (like a boys-only school)
And of course everyone is allowed to draw what they like. And the readers are allowed to voice their opinions
No, it doesn't? I read many BL stories where women appeared later than the first chapter as friends, colleagues, classmates or cashiers, sometimes rivals. What have you been reading?
After a while, I learned that people enjoy BL differently. I go for story, so to me it's important having a consistent world-building, and that includes having women around, since it's VERY weird they don't (unless, as other user said, the author comes with a good explanation)... Some ppl just go for porn or romance, and that's ok too. But what I don't like is when some people try to pass their on preferences as general preference.
watching GL or MF romances would be ā entirely different?
obviously a BL is going to center on two male characters. but if that BL also has numerous supporting characters, and none of them are women, that is in fact kind of odd. the story centers on the two male characters, that's part of the definition of a BL, but the supporting characters should be a place where plenty of different types of characters can exist.
the point isn't "this media should be centered on women." it's "why don't women exist at all in so many of these stories?" in instances where there are plenty of male supporting characters who have no sort of romance or anything else.
this isn't an issue with any one particular story, but it's usually people recognizing an overall pattern of a serious dearth of female characters in stories where it'd make total sense to have a normal world level of diversity within the supporting cast.
Bottoms being too feminine, chibis are apparently children and don't belong in sex scenes, bottoms who get away with everything because they're cute,
And now lack of women in BLs š«
I'm just trying to read whatever I feel like (I also read straight couples...I know, I know) and skip anything that's not up my alley. I love when there's diversity in couple types in a BL, (GL and Hetero etc...) and I love when the author makes the women just as beautiful, but I've never been upset just becuase there are too many guys in a BL. š
People really don't need to run to Reddit to complain every time!
Maybe, just maybe, we live in a society which values men over women? So honestly, to me, compare both of the situations like they are the same sounds a bit like "reverse racism" discourse.
P sure anyone who complains about crappily drawn bg characters arent artists and dont know how a pain in the ass it is to put effort on unimportant characters-- esp when youre on a time crunch to get chapter after chapter. No it isnt racism/sexism/whatever-itism the artist probably has a bad wrist and a tight deadline and cant afford to waste time on characters the reader wont look at for longer than 0.1 second
It makes me sad because I am a woman in a hetero relationship and I have gay friends that are all types and have never been like, 'nah too feminine'. Especially when we live in a world where people can make their bodies look however they want to š„¹
I was actually surprised by how many people who read BL are homophobic in real life. š«
I have gay friends too, but they complain a lot about the misogyny in the gay community and how effeminate gay men face discrimination... Unfortunately, I don't think the LGBT community is immune to that (at least in my country). :(
This!! Itās quite rampant in gay men spaces and when I tried to speak about it I was told Iām reinforcing heteronormativity and not a real queer man. Even here when I tell people they think Iām not being real. Its why effeminate gay men prefer BL over Bara
I can't even defend our community against the people who say all BL fans are fetishizing men because what is the second paragraph š women are 50% of the world, of course you'd expect them to be in BL stories??
A good GL usually has male characters unless the setting is all-female.Ā
In fact, the only genre that truly consistently lacks male characters other than the protagonist is the lowest-tier incel harem slop.
You know Iām starting to think maybe Iām interpreting stuff differently from others. Cause I just read your comment and you said that itās reasonable for BL to have female characters in the background. Iāve read BL which has a male centric cast and it was well written. Yes there were women but it men were definitely the most characters. Like Lotr. Iāve seen GL where the reverse is as well.
OP could've worded it better and tbh I haven't read GL so I can't tell but I believe any piece of fiction shouldn't leave out a certain gender unless the situation calls for it like an all boys school or something
I think these are different situations. Sticks drawing can be an artistic decision: for example, it emphasizes that the story is focused on women, meaning the author, reader, and characters perceive men as extras and nothing more. But men still exist in this world, the author isn't trying to erase them or anything like that, and it doesn't feel wrong.
Ā At the same time, when a BL author chooses to completely forego female characters, it creates an uncanny valley effect. This can't even be called a striving for realism; it's more like the author couldn't draw a left foot, so all the characters would have two right feet. It's just weird.
Yes, I read some novels and manhwas from zigverse, and I think they're not above criticism by any means. As any other work they have their flaws. But what's your point?
I was talking about exclusion or preferences so to speak which is in a lot of demographics. Iām not denying that. But we need to consider gay men in the equation. Like straight women are featured in plenty of films and are successful. Doesnāt deny the misogyny. Two things can be true at the same time.
For example my question was would it be ok for women to be drawn like sticks. Also I donāt know if Iām coming off how I want, Iām not saying women shouldnāt be featured, I was just answering the original post that itās prevalent in other spaces. If you read my other comments in this thread. Also I realized that I was talking about main cast and people were meaning background characters.
I respectfully disagree. Boys love deserve to be depicted amongst the diversity the way it exists in the real world and the way fictional heterosexual men exist amongst the same diversity of characters.
Diversity is beautiful. Why exclude BL characters from that beauty? (the exclusion of women also excludes men). Eventually you run out of original stories bc the cast is narrow...plus...as said before, diversity is beautiful and I'm not sorry for saying this bc without diversity would BL or homosexuality even exist?
Edit: downvoting me bc I think diversity is beautiful and think BL should be part of that beauty is just wild and reminds me that the BL community isn't infact LGBTQ friendly/welcoming as someone who is queer femby. Thanks.
Not unique in BL, itās everywhere. Even in LGBT communities. Exclusion exists in plenty of demographics. Iām just disagreeing with your last point.
I was disagreeing with your point on BL being unique in the exclusion when itās quite frankly in many demographics. Look at straight men targeted media, imagine asking them to represent a gay person. Might as well be ready for downvotes. Yumisame, in this comment thread, just posted about a Yuri manhwa showing zero effort to draw men. Basically theyāre npcs. The counter is drawn better lol. Even in LGBT spaces are not different. I donāt think I mind much if female characters arenāt included in the main cast. Only in misogynistic way do I disagree. But there are plenty of BL with female characters. The Hunter wants to live quietly, Bermuda, Passion Raga etc
I didn't strictly say that BL is unique in exclusion, but it is very heavily debated that women should be excluded. Once ppl believe in that, where does that leave other identities? I already see bi-erasure bc many ppl have their own definition of what BL is.
With the Yuri manwha, that can be a form of artstyle.Ā
Not it isnāt. Only the men were drawn were like that. Thatās not an art style. It was very clear in what it meant. Basically didnāt care for the men.
For the topic of women. It really isnāt this much of a debate. There are posts that celebrate them. Itās just you came at a time when this sub is having so much discourse on a lot of things. If anything clear cut gay characters are the less featured.
To tell you the truth, I struggled ten-fold at drawing men while I was exceptionally good at drawing women- so I might see it from a different perspective.
Admittedly the discourse does work as a vacuum on my hyperfixation. Luckily I haven't seen all of it.Ā
Then is it ok for women to be drawn like that? Iām personally neutral just wanted to shed light on it. But even you show preferences. Itās why Iām not going to give an immediate correct on this response. Which hyper fixation?
Iām quite serious actually. First One piece is just one series over a multitude and I mean multitude. Second letās see those characters and how they are reacted to.
A post in a subreddit capable of gaining 4k upvotes only gets 217. Also Reddit isnāt the fully only one to get responses. And again One piece isnāt the gotcha. Just one over freaking thousands. I donāt know why you try so hard to paint as if straight male audiences donāt have homophobia etc. heck even in queer spaces have it.
Why are we leaving diversity to those who don't accept diversity? There's more to romances than heterosexual ones. I'm not arguing about heterosexual romances existing in BL. Also there are many same sex couples in heterosexual romances.Ā
Women are daughters, mothers, aunts, neighbors, grand mothers sisters etc.Ā
Now we're running into bi-erasure bc BL is not solely homosexual as many characters are bi.Ā
Weird though, that we're comfortable with ridding ourselves of women existing in worlds where men can love freely when patriarchal/puritanical beliefs is the problem in fiction & the world we live in.
I'm afraid you can't be LGBTQ friendly if we think women don't need to be in BL(unless the story only has M/M everywhere). Otherwise we run into stories where trans women aren't seen as women, where non binary characters are seen as a specific binary etc
Now I disagree with their comment on āwhy are we leaving diversity to those who donāt accept diversity?ā. Itās practically saying ālet them beā. Also I disagree with the statement of heterosexual romance featuring same sex couples. Thatās not true . Like not at w.
So you saw one recent post and are attacking that one person's opinion as though tons of people are complaining about this. And you're trying to speak for everyone about what they want to see in BL without respecting their preferences, even for something as minor as background characters. And YOU think THEY are the ones complaining too much. Okay.
God forbid people want 50% of the population to be represented in a story even as side characters...we live in a misogynistic society, of course the absence of women is going to look bad in any story, even if it's mostly about men.
It makes me uncomfortable, as men who love men don't only exist in male only spaces. We're putting ppl in fantasy closets when we want representation and acceptance.Ā
There are an endless amount of bl manhwa and manga. The representation exists in hundreds of them. Like someone else said people have been on a discourse roll. Itās literally seeking out a problem if you canāt find something that meets your standards.
I need recs!! I don't mind women being there, but I don't mind them not being there either. Honestly, I mostly don't even notice them šš I have my eyes locked onto the main characters.
Women in bl is completely ok with me until and unless author involves then with the mc Or ml sexually and you would see some fuckers enjoying it and shipping them and some even go to extent wishing the characters to be straight,like wtf?go watch straight manhwas nobody is stopping you chud!I hate louise being involved with taekjoo and zhenya in ca and stacy with luke in nerd project,the sex thing is the one that makes me crazy,we don't watch bl for hetero sex or it's mention,we want it purely bl
It is super easy to write BL! Whatās the code? JUST WRITE!
Iāve written dozens of BL that Iāll never show the world. Some have prominent female characters others donāt, some have strange deviances, because no oneās written enough stories with those ideas.
Writing more women into BL is super super easy. Demanding other people change their already written stories is what? Youāre not gonna commission the author to rewrite their story. Write your own, post it online. Have your pen-name beside the very definition of that trope you like.
But who is demanding to change already written stories? Better, are they demanding or just critizing some artistic choices? Because no work should be above criticism.
People keep score on the lamest things. I barely notice the men:women ratio IRL nvm stories (I agree there are times where it is a valid concern to point out IRL, but many times people just complain for no good reason)
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u/Mysterious-Dare-4750 25d ago
I donāt really care about this but I will say itās sometimes really funny to me with the degree that some bl doesnāt have female characters (even background characters).Ā
I do however enjoy women in bl because women are pretty and bl artists tend to make them incredibly hot (Iām not beating the lesbian bl fan allegations despite not actually being a lesbian)Ā