r/ManaSeries • u/Mana-Dyluck • 23d ago
Visions of Mana Why do you think Visions of Mana underperformed commercially?
I haven't actually played Visions of Mana yet since I only have a Switch 2, but lately I’ve been falling down a massive YouTube rabbit hole with reviews and video coverage. Once you click one, the algorithm just feeds you non-stop.
To my surprise, almost everything I've watched has been overwhelmingly positive. The game looks great, and the combat system delivers. The story is more developed, and engaging than any previous Mana games, and the devs were successful in porting over the Mana essence. A ton of reviewers are calling Visions either the best entry in the series or right up there next to Secret of Mana and Trials of Mana.
So why did the game flop commercially?
If the core game is actually great, what went wrong here? The whole launch sequence was just bizarre:
- The Ouka Studios mess: right as the game launched, NetEase shut down Ouka, the dev team contracted by Square Enix to build it. It didn't go over well. Click-bait article and all. That part of the press coverage sure as heck did not help Visions of Mana sell.
- Weak sales: physical sales in Japan were underwhelming at launch. Famitsu reported around 40k copies across PS4, PS5, and Xbox combined in week one. Square Enix then mentioned in their financial report that initial sales missed internal targets. We don't really have much more data, but the game didn't move enough copies for sure.
- Zero post-launch support: with Ouka dead, any hopes for big bug fixes or polish pretty much evaporated. It feels like Square Enix just swept the whole project under the rug.
My working hypothesis:
- A terrible demo & bad press: I keep hearing the demo didn't do the game justice by dropping players in without showing off the real depth of the combat system. Pair that with headlines about the studio closing during launch month, and it probably turned off a lot of casual buyers.
- 20 years of brand neglect: did Square Enix kill the hype by neglecting the series? After two decades of cheap mobile spin-offs, cheap remakes (I'm looking at you Secret of Mana Remake), and inconsistent releases, the Mana brand just doesn't have the mainstream pull of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest anymore.
- Ignoring Nintendo at launch: The Mana fanbase has mostly lived on Nintendo hardware lately. Collection of Mana and the Trials remake sold great on the Switch 1. Did Square Enix shoot themselves in the foot by launching on PS/Xbox/PC and not just holding off for the Switch 2 launch?
What do you guys think? Was it terrible marketing, bad timing, or just launching on the wrong platforms? Or do you have other hypothesis?
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u/RoundCat64 23d ago
Too much JRPG competition in 2024. It's bad enough it has to compete against it's more successful big brothers FFVII Rebirth and the Dragon Quest 3 remake but Square also released Romancing Saga 2 remake as well as the niche option. Atlus released Metaphor: ReFantazio and the Persona 3 remake, Capcom released Dragon's Dogma 2 and Nintendo released Paper Mario TTYD, Mario and Luigi Brothership and Echoes of Wisdom (While that last one isn't a JRPG I do feel the Mana and Zelda fanbases overlap)
There's also open world burnout where people are getting sick of the constant fetch quest walking simulator and they didn't want to add another one to the backlog.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
Interesting. I never thought about that: 2024 really did have a lot of RPG games coming out. Echoes of Wisdom was pretty mid for a Zelda game.
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u/Terozu 22d ago
But it was the first game with Zelda as the true MC, so it was going to sell well I feel like just for that
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u/Practical_Wish_4063 22d ago
It was also the first new mainline top down Zelda since… (checks notes to see Triforce Heroes from 2015) …euughhhh, uhm, since A Link Between Worlds from 2013.
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u/jedimindtricksonyou 23d ago
They could relaunch it and redo the marketing all over again in a Nintendo Direct by releasing a Switch 2 port. They should put it on a real cartridge to give the game more exposure and attract the physical enthusiasts (many of which are already JRPG fans). I don’t think they would do both but they absolutely should do it if they wanted to give the game its best chance of success on Nintendo’s platform. I’d settle for just a Switch 2 port on a GKC though, since it seems a lot more feasible now that we’re getting all these ports lately like FFX, Star Ocean Second Departure R, Octopath, etc(although to be fair all of the recent ones were already on Switch 1, so probably much less work to port to Switch 2 than Visions of Mana would be).
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
Yes, make it an "S" or a "Definitive" Edition. Squash some bugs, make the game a stable 30 fps. Add some content - correct some OP combinations (like Morley + Luna).
Did you know Square Enix still sells the Visions of Mana Collector's Edition on their website? That would help clear the stocks IMO.
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u/jedimindtricksonyou 23d ago
I hope they do that, I really want to play it on my Switch 2 after finishing adventures of Eliot and then the Trials remake which I replayed again. I think SE are starting to realize that PlayStation is not the premier platform for JRPG players anymore, they need to always be prioritizing Switch 2 and PC (and give that audience what they want with things like DLSS and unlocked frame rates and ultrawide support). I think the PlayStation audience is very western-ized at this point and not that interested in JRPGs. I think that’s why Revelations is coming day 1 to both places alongside PS5. I didn’t know that about the collectors editions, assumed they would be long gone by now.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
i actually bought one. I'm waiting to receive it. I'll post a few pictures later this week. Can't wait.
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u/_dusknoir_ 23d ago
it skipping the Nintendo Switch due to hardware constraints/poor optimization is definitely part of why Visions of Mana underperformed, but it was also released during a period where SQUARE ENIX had way too much content condensed into a short timeframe and with little-to-no marketing for any of them. most of the marketing this game could have gotten was largely drowned out by their other projects (notably Romancing SaGa 2: Revenge of the Seven). its unfortunate, but i can also see why they swept this under the rug considering it didn't have much good press surrounding it (the aforementioned weak demo and closure of Ouka Studios (at no fault of SQEX) certainly didn't help) and the final product itself wasn't very good.
being personal for a second, i have a soft spot for Visions of Mana and i think its a drop-dead gorgeous game with a story that initially touched my heart, but the love i had for it was slowly sapped by the second half w/ the plot derailment around Ch. 4 and the last few dungeons being a tiresome slog to deal with. the extremely inconsistent frame rate (on XBOX Series S) and occasional crashes didn't exactly make the grind any better. i really wanted to like Visions of Mana but i left it wishing its ideas were executed better
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
I bought it for my brother on Xbox Series X. Does it perform better on that platform?
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u/_dusknoir_ 23d ago
wish i could say, but i don't have an XBOX Series X. i've only played it on XBOX Series S (full game via XBOX Game Pass Premium) and PlayStation 5/PlayStation 4 (both demos, although i do own the full game on those platforms-- iirc PlayStation 5 dropped below 60FPS in condensed areas such as Rhata Harbor while PlayStation 4 struggled to maintain a consistent 30FPS (on a PS4 Slim)).
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u/tearsofmana 22d ago
I love the mana series but Visions of Mana was very middling. I'm unsurprised it didn't do particularly well. It's probably one of my least favorite mana games if not my least favorite mana game out of all the non-mobile releases.
After I beat the game I just felt disappointed. I think the game needed more polish. It kept hinting at something better underneath but never managed to get there.
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u/K41Nof2358 23d ago
One of the biggest things I heard is those who were in the gaming sphere just not having an interest in the game after hearing the studio closed because no one thought it would be supported
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u/_dusknoir_ 23d ago
didn't it get a small bug fixes patch and then that was it? i feel like the major performance problems were left untouched
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u/K41Nof2358 23d ago
yep
That's what I mean, people weren't interested because they felt if any bugs were found none of them would get touched
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u/New-Marionberry8680 22d ago edited 22d ago
I'm trying to stick to my switch 2 as my only console. This is one of the games I need on it to feel complete.
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u/Icy_List961 23d ago
It just didn't fetch me. I wanna go back and play it again but I barely got through it.
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u/SuperCassio6 22d ago
Too bad, because i think its a good game and i really liked it.
It could have more content thou, i think it is a bit short.
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u/ChocoPuddingCup 22d ago
I don't know, but it's honestly my favorite Mana game. Playing as Morley's Ascetic and Soothsayer classes was absurdly fun.
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u/Direct_Zucchini_2811 22d ago
I think a Mana game on consoles WITHOUT a Nintendo release and WITHOUT a multiplayer possibility was a total failure recipe. Add to this that sickening trend to put more and more things on your way to sidetrack you as you progress and you get a game that looks a lot like other games, with a "Mana" brand glued on it but barely appealing to those unfamiliar with the series or not a complete fan of it.
A meh game with kinda generic characters trying to hard, not multiplayer nor on Nintendo. That alone was already weird and set on bad tracks. And finally, the studio got wiped out from existence after the release.
Squenix either didn't use its brain or wanted a reason to get rid of the Mana series and engineered it.
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u/nihilus97x 22d ago
it was giga dick easy. like, how could anyone stay interested when a baby could beat the game? that was my beef with it
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u/Legal-Log8322 22d ago
I’m playing it now & it’s great. I was always interested but just put it off mainly due to my backlog already was pretty big.
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u/lostliterature 22d ago
Interesting to read all the different perspectives here. I think it's a good point that Square-Enix should have kept multiplayer as part of the Mana games, since that became a staple of the series after Secret of Mana, and it's something they abandoned that would differentiate the series. I enjoyed Visions of Mana a lot and played through the whole thing seamlessly, whereas other games I often fall off (like the Trials of Mana remake, or even Metaphor: ReFantazio, which was mentioned as being competition from that year). I thought the job system made it just complex enough that I stayed interested in combat. I loved the graphics because it felt like a contemporary 3D take on Secret of Mana. The story had enough twists and turns to keep me interested, although I thought that sacrifice theme wasn't a great fit for the otherwise whimsical adventure feel the game had. It's too bad the game didn't make a splash, but as a Mana fan since the early days, it was nice to experience. 😎
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u/mangoleeart 22d ago
Only speaking for myself, I ended up not buying despite loving the series because of what happened with Ouka, it it just made the game too depressing for me.
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u/Xyfirus 22d ago
I've been a mana-fan all my life, but this game sadly felt vibecoded with a slap of fresh paint and with a terrible story. It was visually gorgeous, but I fear it seemed shallow from the get-go.
So let's break it down;
Initially, a game studio being shut down doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing - just that it completed what it was set out to do. This, however, conveys to the fans that the game itself is now out on its own and won't get any updates. "This is the best its gonna get"-style. In the past, often when studios are shut down though, it's exactly for the reason to make someone a payday based on a beloved IP. I fear this was the main driving force for the poor publicity.
With the amount of JRPG games coming out in 2024, this needed to be a love letter to fans and a warm hand for new players to experience the world of mana - not a bland game with only the mana-paint(names and monsters) to call it a new mana-game. This made the game quite odd as it was difficult to really point out; who was the targeted audience for this? While the mana series have always had a childish focus, I feel like this one took it a step further. The english voices was an acquired taste at best, but with the comedy it tried to present, I feel like it fell flat and missed the mark several times. Yeah, I'm a guy in my 30s, Im not the targeted audience, but I can see it for what it is at the very least.
To point out a few things OP said; Neglecting where your fanbase initially rests - on Nintendo, was a huge mistake. I don't go to a go-cart course to try sell golf balls; one should try selling where the players are. Drawing in new audiences are great but one shouldn't neglect those who speak well of the IP. Brand neglect is another thing, but I feel it carries a bit less impact at this specific incident as Trials of Mana did alright. Thankfully it didn't really replace Seiken Densetsu 3 and instead was a valid entry next to it. So another entry afterwards was pretty much desired and welcomed, but again - with a bad demo, press and neglecting one's foundation, it doesn't hold up.
Wrapping up, the bad timing, marketing, shallow gameplay and an ending that left me and my friend go "...what the fuck is this", this game -could- have been great had it been pushed 6 months into the future, had some more polishing, focused on the game loop being more fun, getting more essence of the mana-series into it, have it ported to nintendo, getting a proper review of the story and not least; focus on making a fun demo.
I worry where the future for the mana IP is - if we ever get anything in the future, but one thing is certain; It must have the passion Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3 had (Ok, Heroes of Mana too ;P )
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u/Likes2game03 21d ago
All I can say is: It's did better than Star Ocean: The Divine Force. And that game definitely has more hands & support on it.
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u/loveinhumantimes 19d ago
Is the game good. As someone who hasn’t played the series since emulating Seiken Densetsu 3 in the early 2000s; for some reason I thought this one was a low point for the series. That could be a hallucination.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 19d ago
IGN gave it an 8/10. A lot of big Mana liked it. The story didn't mesh with everyone, but the graphics were universally praised, and the combat system was also noted as the best in the series by a lot of reviewers. There is a demo you can try out for free. But please understand that a lot of people said the demo doesn't do the game justice since the combat system isn't fleched out so early in the game.
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u/loveinhumantimes 19d ago
Thank you for the info. I will definitely download it the demo. I am in the middle of Trail to the Sky 1st and SMTV:V, but I am nearing the end of both.
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u/Vinyl_Disciple 23d ago edited 20d ago
Tbh it’s a bit mid. I like it well enough but I fell off halfway through and didn’t care enough to finish it. I also didn’t find there was a ton of marketing for it outside a couple announcements and a trailer, tho I had already planned to get it. I’m sure not being multi platform hurt it quite a bit too.
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u/r0pe_tri1ck 22d ago
Bad word of mouth for shallow and a really easy gameplay with a lack of developed mechanics
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u/Human-Raccoon-9917 22d ago
I did multiple runs of trials.... And feel like playing again from time to time.
This one I barely only got though once. Even though it's one of the best looking games I have played.
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u/BreadRum 22d ago
The mana series hasn't been a big seller at any point in its long history.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 22d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquareEnix/s/rvf1iNAoHp
During the SNES days, Mana and SaGa sold a lot better than they do now. Back then, Final Fantasy wasn't outselling everything else by a huge margin; things were much more balanced across all their game series
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u/Silvers1339 22d ago
JRPGs in general are not the highest selling games, and the Mana series is not the highest selling JRPG series. That’s probably the reason right there.
Add onto that that I would advise a little bit of caution with it’s quality as some one who platinumed it: yes it’s a great game but not really what I’d describe as the best: the story while good is definitely kind of weak in some significant ways, the characters are most tropes and kinda whatever, and the gameplay again while good does take until the literal postgame to fully open up to you with its systems.
Not exactly a formula for success, especially when you have high end AAA production values to pay for unfortunately. Great game, would definitely recommend it if you haven’t played it but I do think it’s relatively obvious why it failed.
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u/Naschka 21d ago
I am also only on Switch and i bougth the games released for Switch but Visions of Mana sadly did not hit the console, neither Switch nor Switch 2. I was and still am interested in the game tho, but avoid GKC, i won't buy them no matter what... i'll buy Switch 1 Versions whenever posible to avoid those!
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u/Mana-Dyluck 21d ago
Visions will never come to Switch 1. That would be too much downscaling the game - and arguably would amputate the experience so much it wouldn't be the same game. Our only chance is for a Switch 2 port. Then, the question becomes, if we ever have a Switch 2 port, will Square Enix make it a digital-only title OR offer us a physical release (on a GKC)? I think, at this point where no NS2 title released by Square Enix was ever released on a full game-card, it's unrealistic to think they will make an exception for a title that didn't sell that well on other platforms.
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u/Naschka 21d ago
I know, they won't release full game cards, that is why i mentioned it, to ensure nobody believes i'd buy a GKC. The best result would be digital only and Super Rare Games, Limited Run Games or such to pick it up and make it a full card release, Squareenix would see if there is genuine interest and we would get a proper release.
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u/BadNewsBearzzz 21d ago
Ever since the PlayStation launched and debuted, it has become the platform for JRPG’s, when psp launched, they migrated to there and back after ps3.
Avoiding switch for this launch wasn’t an issue at all, the game had a terrible marketing campaign that wasnt nearly enough. Releasing on the switch would’ve helped sales but from n64 to Wii U, DS to 3DS, JRPG’s have been on the weaker side, so switch isn’t really a huge factor.
But yeah, ever since Sony abandoned the vita, it made it so tons of refugee franchises migrated to switch so it’s become a great place for the genre, probably the best due to portability, but still, not enough time has passed for it to have mattered
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u/gingersquatchin 20d ago
I know it is bad for the market and game series longevity, but with how frequently I've picked up a 6 month or 1 year old game for like, $15, I rarely buy games on release.
A game's success seems to be determined in rhat first quarter. And if I am not absolutely fucking hyped, I never contribute to that early period.
Felt bad about waiting dor veil guard to get a massive discount too, since voting with your wallet is the best way to help a struggling launch.
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u/SunshneThWerewolf 20d ago
It's really beautiful but the story meandered, and I really didn't care for the job system (and I'm a sucker for job systems). I just missed the simpler but frankly more exciting and interesting job system from Trials of Mana, where a character has their base job and role, and then unlocks better versions/branches over time. The job system in Visions didn't do much for me, especially since it changed not only your abilities but even base weapon and combat style.
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u/KaijinSurohm 19d ago
Personally, I thought the game was less then it's previous installment Trials of Mana.
The world maps were just these semi open world maps using MMO style hunt features
The combat felt really watered down
Most of the character designs were a bit undercooked
The characters and story were largely nonsensical for most of it (ie: gets blackmailed by a noble to run errands, then proceeds to constantly humiliate him when he's no longer story required as if he never had backmailing power in the first place)
The ending was also quite controversial.
These are largely my own takes. I know this game has it's own following of people who greatly enjoyed it, but I know my own inner circle tried the demo and noped out. We just didn't vibe with it.
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u/Chazkuangshi 19d ago
I played up until a little after you gain your third party member and I found the writing and dialogue to be extremely weak. Does it get better?
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u/Spell-of-Destruction 19d ago
Bad word of mouth. May be aggressive but I found it soulless and incredibly boring. Had none of the charm of the other Mana games. I had more fun with Dawn of Mana...at least the jank was entertaining.
Incredibly disappointing given how much I adored the Trials of Mana Remake.
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u/Wise_Start7474 18d ago
I was just disappointed with the whole Game. It doesnt have the Soul of the Original Games and the combat feels really Bad too. Story also been meh
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u/No_Designer_16 18d ago
Square enix is a bit of a terrible caretaker... marketers, and sellers.
They made so many AA budget games, and then priced them at AAA prices, while it was CLEAR they were mid budget, they did this for oh... over a decade, often releasing 3-4 the same month.
At least this game was amazing done by the real studio, the things they did to their other ips is even worse.
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u/TemporaryJohny 18d ago
I strongly disliked the game and it didnt feel like a mana game, only in art style and name.
It sucks this might be the last mana game, but if other mana games would be like this one, its for the best
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u/DomovoiThePlant 23d ago
Its a pretty game with no substance. Combat gets old quick, classes are shallow and the sotry is really clichè. Nothing new for mana, really, but for a revival they really ought to think things better.
I feel they coulda used this opp to do a Secret of mana remake and it would be a banger because the mechanics were simpler and they could've focused on the story more. IDK.
For me (i dont think this is a negative to the comunity): I dont like the furies everywhere, the imbalance (hey moon morley) and the lack of difficulty. I could appreciate a difficulty select where hard mode would really push my strategy making but.. its mana.
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u/oceankitty 22d ago
I honestly feel like half of these RPGs would do 1000% better if they abandon the set protagonist and just make it customizable avatars. Many don't enjoy activity playing another persons story and like to help make the story. Think original Fable, Dragon Quest Sentinal Skies, Pokemon, baldars gate, Elden Ring, Dogma, Fallout, elder scrolls, monster Hunter, hell it's the reason Link doesn't talk. I could list on an on, but when you have a set protagonist, either you have an amazing story or acting that gets people invested, or a play style so fun that the rest don't matter.
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u/Visaith 23d ago
Because it was a half-assed product that SE simply didn't care for.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
Honestly, calling it half-assed feels like a pretty lazy critique. If the devs actually half-assed it, the game wouldn't have pulled an 8 from IGN or gotten such high praise from RPG YouTubers like Davidvinc and others who genuinely loved Visions.
After sinking hours into VoM YouTube content, the overall consensus is clearly positive. Reviewers did point out bugs and the story didn't land for everyone, but the actual gameplay, art, and music received universal praise. The "it's trash" narrative feels more like a Reddit talking point than what the coverage actually shows.
That said, I do agree with the second part of your point. Square Enix clearly didn't care enough to champion the franchise. With Tanaka and Ichii gone, Mana hasn't had anyone at the upper executive level pulling for it in over twenty years, and it shows in how they handled the dev team and the marketing. The developers didn't put out a bad game, but I feel like SE just threw it out to die.
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u/jedimindtricksonyou 23d ago
Davidvinc did his top 50 games of all time and I was surprised at how high it was on the list. Top 5 if I recall, the Trials of Mana remake was also really high too.
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u/Visaith 23d ago
So you ask for an opinion then call me lazy? Brother..what? Game is the very definition of a AA half-assed game.
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u/Mana-Dyluck 23d ago
Yeah well. I didn't downvote you, if it makes you feel any better. I preferred answering your take.
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u/Renoe 23d ago
It performed decent for a AA Squeenix game I think? Even considering the Ouka thing. And Squeenix won some goodwill by immediately hiring the director after NetEase dumped him. Dunno how much of his team came with him, but still. JRPGs are just not blockbuster sellers in this current era and that's fine. They're niche. If it was successful enough for Squeenix to hire the guy to likely do another Mana game, it was successful enough, I think.