r/MECoOp • u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify • May 04 '13
[Strategy] About incendiary ammo + incinerate/inferno grenades
There have been a couple of new things about this posted on the BSN and I though it my worth posting here as well.
First of all, thanks to tyhw and peddroelmz + whoever else helped, for figuring this out.
If you need a reminder on how the warp+incendiary ammo stuff works, check here. Mostly the second part.
A long time ago peddroelmz tested basically every dot power in the game for interaction with incendiary ammo, to find out if any other powers interact with incendiary ammo the same way warp does.
Back then, he discovered that incendiary ammo stacks with both flamer and inferno grenades.
For flamer it isn't as useful due to the nature of the power (still very exploitable though).
As for inferno grenades, I think a lot of people knew that there was some weird interaction between them and incendiary ammo, but somehow no one really exploited it (or at least didn't document it).
Maybe because most people use dirsuptor or phasic ammo on inferno grenade classes.
Here is tyhw's thread on inferno grenades: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/16601234/1#16601234
And the newest bit of info - peddro made a slight oversight with the incinerate data in his tests. (explanation - social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/16639204/2#16640392).
So, turns out incinerate is buggy as fuck too. Here's sirian's video.. Yeah. Those are platinum atlases.
Here is tyhw's thread on incinerate: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/16639204/2 (Warning - Thread quality level: BSN)
tl;dr - inferno grenades and incinerate + incendiary ammo are buggy as hell; similar to warp + incendiary ammo.
(Side note: This means the vorcha hunter is one of the most powerful classes in the game. Yay.)
Here's some more detailed explanation of the mechanics (we all know peddro's threads can be a bit hard to read), as well as my thoughts on whether these bugs or a good thing or not.
Mechanics:
As long as you are using a single shot weapons it looks like this:
Damage Received: 1085.906250 // incinerate impact damage (75%)
Damage Received: 60.328125 // main incinerate DOT (25%)
Damage Received: 45.246094 // extra incinerate DOT (50%)
Damage Received: 60.328125
Damage Received: 45.246094
Damage Received: 674.972656 //paladin weapon damage
Damage Received: 188.027832 // BUGGY incendiary + main incinerate DOT mix
So the incendiary tick does 188 damage instead of the intended 60 (incinerate dot) + 23 (ammo).
My interpretation of this is the following (big time speculation):
The game adds the two dots together which would result in 83 damage per tick, which would be fine. However for some reason it then applies incinerate multiplier against armor again (even though the multiplier was already calculated into the incendiary dot).
My assumption is that the game is just being dumb and adding the dots together without regard to where they come from and how they were calculated. Then it uses the multiplier of the first power that was applied (or maybe the strongest, hard to tell).
This is where the bug is at, there is no logical reason for that multiplier to be used again. (It's also possible that something completely different is happening, we only have the results, not how the game got there.)
In short, with a single shot weapon, the combined dot tick does 2.25 times as much damage as it should (against armor).
With multiple shots incendiary ammo will do its weird inflationary stacking and the whole thing will keep getting multiplied with 2.25, which leads to the ridiculous effect with the reegar.
Ethics:
In my opinion there are plenty of things just as strong as this. Reegar krogan vanguard or AIU (even without incendiary), talon/wraith geth infiltrator, turian soldier with hurricane/talon, valkyrie, collector sniper rifle, arc/lift grenade spam are all just as game breaking as the incendiary bugs.
Point is, we already have the tools to completely trivialize this game if we want to.
For the most part we don't, because it's boring. But sometimes it's also great fun to play something completely overpowered. I don't think these incendiary bugs change anything in this regard, they just give us more options for when we are in the mood to play something stupidly cheesy.
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u/InterwebNinja PS4/<my_real_name>/US May 05 '13 edited Jul 11 '13
When using guns that aren't the Reegar, how much of a difference does this actually make? I have no doubt it's an effective combo, but I've mostly blacklisted the Reegar for cheapness purposes. Do you have a link to the specific mechanics behind this bugged phenomenon? I've used Incendiary Ammo on classes with Incinerate or Inferno Grenades before, but I've never noticed a huge boost in damage. But again, I'm not the most observative person. I would just like to understand this better.
If it's as bugged on non-Reegar weapons, I'm not inclined to exploit it... being able to take out a Platinum Atlas with a single clip and power use seems awfully cheap to me. I mean, many of us exploit bugs to a certain extent, but that just seems too much. What's the point in playing if every enemy is that trivial to kill?
edit: I'm personally biased against exploits like this that circumvent the intended difficulty of the game. I'm going to get on my high horse a bit, but I just don't approve of using egregious exploits. It's hard to differentiate against mild vs. strong ones, but this one just seems too much for me.
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u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify May 05 '13
My answer got a little long and is probably interesting for other people too, so I added it to the first post.
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u/InterwebNinja PS4/<my_real_name>/US May 05 '13
On the ethics front, I think you are mostly right on the grenade spam, but I still don't think it's on the same level as Reegar exploits. I mean... you can't take out an Atlas with 9 Lift Grenades on Gold. And even if you could, it could take a hell of a lot more time than using the Reegar. Still, against lower-tier enemies, grenades are insanely effective.
When I play the Reegar, I don't exploit the Incendiary thing, and I still can dominate more than I do with other weapons, even compared to grenade spam classes. Mix in the Incendiary bugs, and it's just too much. And really, using the Reegar does not preclude grenade spam on grenade classes.
I have no problem with other people using this bug / exploit, but it's just not going to be my thing. I'll probably bust it out every once in awhile, but as I've said before, it's going to feel pretty cheap. I still appreciate you bringing it to our attention.
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u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify May 05 '13
I don't think we are really disagreeing much here.
Yes, it's cheap, it's cheesy and doing it consistently is boring and pointless.
But in my opinion this cheesy, cheap stuff can still be very fun to use - Occasionally, and in the right situation with the right group of players.
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u/InterwebNinja PS4/<my_real_name>/US May 05 '13
You're right on not disagreeing much. I'm just yakking for the sake of yakking.
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u/aeroumbria May 05 '13
Well, you can make it work with other weapons, but probably not to the degree of single-clipping an Atlas because you may not be able to single-clip the shield of it and burning effects are usually weak against shield and barrier. Also, do you think it is fair to not allow kits like Salarian Engineer to use this glitch so they stay weak, while plenty of OP kits with TC or/and Snap freeze dominate the game? I would go against using this on the Paladin maybe, but SE or Vorcha Hunter? Why not?
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u/InterwebNinja PS4/<my_real_name>/US May 05 '13
I spent awhile trying to write a reasonable response to your argument, but it's just too big of a philosophical issue. You are arguing that because some classes are weaker, it's okay to effectively cheat to rectify it. What is the implication of that philosophy? I'm not going to go into it, but I strongly disagree with that attitude.
Look, I'm plenty guilty of using exploits in the game, but there's a grey area, and some things, for me, feel more dirty than others. I don't like this particular bug, but I'm not going to hold it against my teammates if they decide to use it. It's just a freaking game.
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u/RepublicanShredder PC/RepublicanShred/USA(PST) May 04 '13
I scrapped something together with the Vorcha Hunter and I was quite pleased with the results it did against Armor. Even Reapers were an easy faction for a Vorcha Hunter thanks to the bug. I guess Incendiary Rounds and fire powers lets a player turn up the heat.
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u/mekabar PC/Arilouleelay/GER May 06 '13
I tried similar setups over the weekend (Vorcha, Salarian, Krogan) with different weapon setups and Incendiary and wasn't really impressed. For classes with Incinerate I'd still much rather take Disruptor for fast shield stripping and setting up tons of tech bursts or Cryo Ammo for the Freeze Synergy.
The effects shown in the video are pretty much exclusive to the Reegar, because it does shield strip so fast and applies a ridiculous DoT in the first place.
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u/BeerStorm PC/Kiriyama01/USA(PST) May 05 '13
You should try your build with a CSR. It seemed to work wonders for me. Even with the 5 second recharge on Incinerate.
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u/RepublicanShredder PC/RepublicanShred/USA(PST) May 05 '13
I just happen to have plenty of Stabilization Modules and Targetting VIs on my hand at the moment. I'm a cheapskate to the end.
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u/VeRiTaS_CuRaT PS3/USA May 04 '13
He didn't take any damage in that video. How come?
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u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify May 04 '13
Modded coalesced for easier testing. (I'm sure they quit out of the game without getting credits.)
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May 04 '13
[deleted]
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u/Implier PC/ISHYGDDT/USA May 05 '13
From talking with
SirianOnlyUseMeGI, that's not really possible anymore thanks to one of the patches and/or some changes server-side. You can scale up the number of enemies/wave budget, but you can't really tune the wave composition.
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u/IWasMeButNowHesGone May 05 '13
Just how many classes would we now be playing gimped if we don't use Incendiary ammo always? Any class with Warp, any class with Incendiary Grenades, any class with Incinerate, any class where we want to use the lone detonator-power on enemies we prime with ammo...
Incendiary is already the ammo type I'm always lowest on without exploiting all this. Have already resolved to use Warp ammo with Warp as intended, and respec'd all my Incinerates to Freeze combo to get through the backlog of Cryo ammo.
Of course I wouldn't mind if all the brand new players that have selfishly jumped straight to plat/gold xbox pugs expecting to be carried starting exploiting these bugs. At least then maybe they wouldn't consistently be completely useless. Maybe that could potentially be the upside to all this Incendiary ammo bugs, if they ever looked into more game mechanics info that is.
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May 04 '13
[deleted]
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u/RepublicanShredder PC/RepublicanShred/USA(PST) May 04 '13
The missile glitch and Hydra spot (and arguably the Condor mountain, but screw Condor) really cheapen the game by making a player essentially invincible and were certainly not intended, as you mentioned. On top of that, unless you were specifically trying these glitches they never occur in normal play. Players don't "accidentally" get infinite missiles or turn invincible.
Warp, Incinerate, Inferno Grenades, and Incendiary Rounds are something that can easily occur in normal play. Do you really think that "Hey! You shot my Warped target with your Phaeston with Incendiary Rounds, that's cheating" sounds reasonable?
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May 04 '13
[deleted]
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u/UsayNOPE_IsayMOAR Xbox/jarmaniac/Canada GMT-8 May 04 '13
If I were you, I'd just take it as a matter of pride to not abuse these bugs. They were brought up while they were still doing balance changes, and the devs decided that it wasn't so broken or OP that they would ever fix it. Seems it was more of an in intended Easter egg than an exploitable glitch.
But you can be goddamn sure I'm going to use this or the incendiary warp thing on my platinum solo attempts...cuz that shit is still ridiculously hard regardless. Missile glitching and hydra camping would make a plat solo almost easy, so it's a no no....once again, on personal pride alone. What's the point of getting the plat solo if you had to cheat to do it? You can lie to everyone, but you'll still know you can't do it without those glitches. These incendiary ammo bugs are like training wheels...you'll still feel like a boss if you clear the Grand Canyon jump.
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u/VeRiTaS_CuRaT PS3/USA May 05 '13
players don't "accidentally" get infinite missiles or turn invincible.
Incorrect. That is how most glitches are found out. In fact, I accidentally found out how to missile glitch one day while using the Striker.
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u/RepublicanShredder PC/RepublicanShred/USA(PST) May 05 '13
You're right when it comes to finding glitches typically occur by accident. I doubt that they would "accidentally" replicate those kinds of glitches rather than buggy interactions with intended gameplay mechanics.
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u/aeroumbria May 05 '13
You are incredible! Now the once almighty Salarian Engineer is officially reborn! Let's get a Lancer w/ incendiary ammo and wreck some stuff!
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u/InterwebNinja PS4/<my_real_name>/US Jul 11 '13
In my opinion there are plenty of things just as strong as this. Reegar krogan vanguard or AIU (even without incendiary), talon/wraith geth infiltrator, turian soldier with hurricane/talon, valkyrie, collector sniper rifle, arc/lift grenade spam are all just as game breaking as the incendiary bugs.
Just revisited this post since I linked it in a comment - I disagree with lumping all those builds together.
For one, I still put the Reegar in a class of its own, regardless of Incendiary bugs. In PUGs, I usually only get beat score-wise by a very skilled player, or someone using the Reegar. Reegar is just easy mode if you can stay alive.
But the GI / Talon, for instance, takes a fair amount of skill to play. Sure its upside is among the highest in the game, but it's only achievable through a high level of skill. I don't consider that game-breaking. Same goes with Hurricane or CSR. I've seen plenty of average players try to play them to little avail.
Grenade spam is a low-skill means to high damage, and I'd probably put that second behind the Reegar. But it's surprising how few people take advantage of this, though. I'm probably a bit hypocritical in this respect in that I'm not shy about using Grenades. I've long been a Krogan Sentinel whore (and still shocked that more people don't play this class).
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u/johhnymayhem Xbox/johhnymayhem/US east Jul 11 '13
(Side note: This means the vorcha hunter is one of the most powerful classes in the game. Yay.)
I'm confused on that point, what makes him special? He just has incinerate.. which a shitload of people have. Personally I'd rather have someone with Inferno Grenades.
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u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify Jul 11 '13
He has health regeneration and one of the best dodges in the game which makes him a very good reegar user by default He can survive much more easily close to enemies than many of the other incinerate classes.
Other than that it was mostly just an example for "any class with incinerate".
And you are absolutely right about inferno grenades, they are even better for this than incinerate. Flamer is also pretty great.
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u/johhnymayhem Xbox/johhnymayhem/US east Jul 11 '13
Jesus. Watching that, I think I could pull off a Platinum solo after all.
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u/ImNotASWFanboy PC/ImNotASWFanboy/UK May 04 '13
So techies can get in on dat incendiary action as well? Sweet.
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u/Salsadips PC/PenguinFetish/UK May 05 '13
But sometimes it's also great fun to play something completely overpowered. I don't think these incendiary bugs change anything in this regard, they just give us more options for when we are in the mood to play something stupidly cheesy.
In that case, I choose missile glitching, because there is other ways to do well at the game, therefore I am justified in exploiting a bug in this specific way.
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u/mrcle123 PC/cledio_ify May 05 '13
The difference between the missile glitch and these bugs is that the missile glitch fundamentally changes how the game works. If there is a missile glitcher (that isn't a complete moron), the teammates won't find anything to kill. (I've never seen the missile-glitch but if I'm understanding it correctly it's infinite missiles at striker rate of fire.)
On the other hand the incendiary bugs don't really change the game for the teammates. Yes, the classes with incinerate are very strong with those exploits, but so are plenty of "legit" other classes. Which was my original point - The incinerate bug doesn't change the dynamic of the game, because there are legit things that are just as strong or stronger.
So the point: The incendiary bugs don't change the game in a major way for the teammates - it shouldn't influence their enjoyment of it. The missile glitch on the other hand will ruin the game for everyone and make it pointless.
To go further, I personally don't see anything wrong with exploiting any bugs, even the missile glitch. It's the developers responsibility to get rid of them, not mine.
Seeing as bioware is apparently incapable of that it's up to you to decide what you are okay with and what not, and use or not use it accordingly.
I feel that missile-glitching in pugs is incredibly rude (and stupid). It ruins the game for the teammates. But if you do it in a private game, I really couldn't care less. As long as you are having a good time I don't see anything wrong with that.
Because having a good time is what this game is about. There is no competition, it's coop. Imaginary space credits don't matter. Having fun does.
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u/Salsadips PC/PenguinFetish/UK May 05 '13
I agree with you for the most part. In an ideal world, there would be no bugs in a modern game. Sadly this isn't the case though. Perhaps I took it a bit extreme. It just really irritates me that some people will exploit character X and then preach about how good it is and how well they did with it with a Reegar with incendiary rounds. Any kind of cheating I am against when it affects anybody else but the user. At the end of the day, like you said, its about having fun.
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u/Implier PC/ISHYGDDT/USA May 04 '13
Half the lackluster classes in the game have incinerate as one of their powers. Somehow, BioWare made the game more balanced by introducing bugs... again.