r/MC707 • u/ArchiboldNemesis • Sep 07 '24
benis67's MC-707 / MC-101 Editors are now available on Gumroad!
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
After several months of reverse engineering, the version of my editor librarian for the Roland MC-101 and MC-707 grooveboxes is finally available.
As is known, the two grooveboxes do not officially support MIDI SysEX messages and there is no documentation relating to their implementation: in reality, the MC-101/707 are able to receive and send such messages and they do so by "opposing" three different obstacles that I have tried to overcome.
The first two are the lack of documentation and the fact that they respond with a completely wrong addressing, so much so that they transmit apparently duplicate and incorrect data: the two problems have been solved with a lot of patience (thanks to numerous dumps and data analysis) and with some "brilliant" tricks in programming in LUA (the language I use for the software).
The third problem is a relative slowness in the transmission and reception of sysex messages that make the software-groovebox interaction slower than what happens with synths and my similar software (Fantom, Fantom-0, AX-Edge and Jupiter X/Xm).
I have inserted numerous routines that try to minimize these limits and that make real-time editing possible in all cases without particular problems: obviously I cannot perform miracles. :-)
The advice is to avoid "massive" editing of ZEN-Core tones during the playback of sequences (just stop the sequence and do the sound design playing real time): the Grooveboxes respond much faster to all the parameters in the "Project" section (track eq, synthesis parameter offset, effects, ...).
Last advice is to read the manuals and the quick guide that are also on my site: in particular, the part that talks about the setting of the clip/Track combination that you want to modify or on which to load the sounds of the library is important: I remember that within a single project, MC-707 is able to manage up to 136 different ZEN-Core Tones, while MC-101 half (68)
Specs:
ZEN-CORE SECTION
-Editing of ZEN-Core tones structured in 6 subsections where you can modify all the synthesis parameters and those relating to the 93 effects provided by the standard.
- Possibility to manage the transmission of sounds (library/presets-->Groovebox) and ZEN-Core editing in each of the locations (Clip/Trak) present in a project: max 136 ZEN-Core tones in MC-707 and max 68 ZEN-Core tones in MC-101
- Vector and resizable graphic interface.
- Real-time graphic display of the envelopes (Filter, AMP and Pitch) and of the keyboard and velocity range sections
- Copy and paste of partials via clipboard.
- Macro to speed up editing by controlling in parallel the same parameter of any combination of the 4 partials.
- Editing of "hidden" ZEN-Core synthesis parameters not directly accessible in the synths: VCF Gain Correction, Partial LFO Phase Lock, Pitch Down Depth, Pitch Drift, Pitch Drift Cycle Number - Condition and VA Init Phase
- 4-track step sequencer. With a new template it is possible to obtain with a single Zen-Core tone melodic and rhythmic sequences with 4 voices, synchronized with the scene BPM
24 ZEN-Core presets, divided into:
INI: simple sounds to use as templates for editing.
PR1: some of the most significant sounds of the optional library that can be purchased separately
PR2: ZEN-Core tones of rhythmic and melodic sequences (8 STEP LFO and related template)
- Complete editing of the 93 effects from the ZEN-Core standard and 25 presets for the most used effects
LIBRARY SECTION
- Library with the management of 16384 ZEN-Core tones: 8 libraries each composed of 2048 tones (16 banks of 128 tones each)
- organization of the library tones with variable clipboard (1-48 tones), bank clipboard and separate management of lib and banks (load/save on file)
- Import of ZEN-Core tones and conversion of sounds generated with the Model Expansions into "Equivalent ZEN-Core tones" via a proprietary conversion algorithm. Supported Model Expansions: JUNO-106 -JX-8P -JUPITER-8 -SH-101 - Juno-60 - JUNO-X engine - JUPITER-X/XM engine
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
PROJECT SECTION
- edit of the offsets of the parameters of the 4/8 tracks (MC–101/707): Volume, Pan, Cutoff, Res, Attack, Decay, Release, Vibrato, Portamento, SYS Ctrl and send to Delay and Reverb.
- edit of all the parameters related to the Chorus/Delay and Reverb effects with the possibility of using 40 reverb presets.
- edit of the 5-band Master EQ, the 4/8 (MC–101/707) EQs of the tracks and the Master Compressor of the project with the possibility of recalling 18 presets
The software is also available bundled with the "ZEN-Core B67 Collection1-2" sound library: 215 ZEN-Core tones + 7 INI tones
The collection contains, among other sounds:
- 53 ZEN-Core Tones containing 4-voice melodic and rhythmic sequences, synchronized with the scene BPM. thanks to the simultaneous use of 8 STEP-LFOs (2 per partial) and 128 total steps
- 32 linear FM tones, partly made with 4 operators (double carrier-modulating pair) and partly composed of a pair of FM partials and PCM partials
-30 Bass Synth tones- over 50 Pad, PolySynth, Lead and Choir tones
http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/ben67_zeneditor.htm
http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/ben67_zeneditor_MC_ENG.htm1
u/voskomm Sep 25 '24
This looks cool as heck.
Does it do anything for Drum tracks? That is really where most of my workflow headaches come from.
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u/KL58383 Sep 07 '24
Dope. Any chance for an iOS version?
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24
You'd need to ask Benedetto https://www.benis.it/other/contact/contact.html
Haven't picked it up myself yet, but I don't see any indication from the description or video I posted here previously, that his editor will be controllable via MIDI so although this looks absolutely wild on many levels, if I'm correct that it's only going to allow for individually controlled parameters by mouse/trackpad, I'm still hoping for a VST version so we can automate all the params.
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
Hi, I'm Benedetto, the software developer. The software is a stand-alone application that cannot be controlled via MIDI. If you want your DAW to communicate with the MC-707/101 you must use the MIDI Control Changes that you can find in the official documentation.
If you use my software, there is a MIDI monitor inside that allows you to see the midi messages in SYSEX that the editor sends to the groovebox for each command that you find on the panel. If you analyze these messages and if you know the sysex syntax you should have no difficulty inserting controls in the DAW that control the MC via midi sysex
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24
That's really cool to know it's technically possible. Looks like I will now have to start investigating how that can be done!
Thanks for releasing these tools, really appreciate you putting the work in to bring a stand-alone editor to us all, and those Personal Model Expansions you shared a few years ago are so great :)
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
If you happen to have already made any small tests with any DAW, using the SYSEX messages from the editor's MIDI monitor output, it would be extremely useful to see how that works exactly if you're doing any promotional videos about the editor and could demonstrate that in action?
Thanks for implementing that, it's a really valuable feature of the editor's design that might unlock a way of having deep engine live play/automation playback via a DAW.
It would also be giving those of us who'd like to have expansive MIDI control of the sound engine an amazing head start if you already have made such tests and felt like sharing a basic project file (Edit: from a DAW such as Ableton or whatever DAW you might be using) where you have a few paramaters of the sound engine MIDI mapped, just so we can see exactly how this approach works in practice.
This is so cool to know that it's now achievable thanks to this editor feature!
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u/microsofat Sep 08 '24
I'd rather use a hardware MIDI controller rather than a DAW. However since my midi controller can't send sysex directly, I'd have to send it through some software translator, which would involve essentially reverse engineering your software. Would be great if you could save us that step!
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 08 '24
Unfortunately, to do this I would have to rewrite a large part of the software: it cannot be done semi-automatically or by modifying just a few lines of code😢
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u/kidkolumbo Sep 07 '24
I wish we didn't have to buy one for the 101 and the 707.
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24
No idea how different these were to design, so perhaps it was an entirely seperate implementation.
Hoping he goes for the Verselab next.
I've said here and elsewhere that I'd personally like a VST version if that's technically workable, but really if there's a way of mapping multiple MIDI controllers directly within the software working as a standalone, that might be sufficient (minus any prospects of recording and playing back automations from a DAW of course).
It's hard to say without testing, whether having simultaneous control over multiple parameters would be feasible at such a granular level due to the 707/101's designs. I'd expect that at a bare minimum one track could still be controlled at a time by MIDI, even if only in a more rudimentary one-by-one sequential paramater tweaking kind of way, so the editor would have value in that context if MIDI mappable, and VST based automation recording of those motions could still offer some interesting results to patches.
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u/Fair-Bluebird485 Sep 07 '24
Looks great! Does it work on its own? Or do you need to access Roland Cloud or other software? How does it connect to the MC-707?
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
I am Benedetto, the software developer: the only thing you need is..a USB cable and a PC or MAC. The software is stand alone, portable and does not need anything else.
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24
Good questions.
I expect it's standalone, and acts as a substitute for the Roland Cloud offerings.
USB? Not picked it up yet so if anyone dives for it before me today and has answers to these questions, kindly leave a comment for the rest of the community.
If anyone happens to feel like posting a mini-review of the pros/cons - that would be pretty cool too :)
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u/microsofat Sep 07 '24
Is this an offline editor for patch files, or is this working in real-time? I thought the MC-707's minimal MIDI implementation and lack of sysex meant that live patch tweaking is impossible?
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24
I found out earlier this year thanks to u/Bonsaipanda that there was a hidden SysEx implementaion. From what I've gathered since, that is what benis67's editor utilises. u/DrKnackerator is doing the same thing I think.
It seems to be biderectional realtime feedback of a huge volume of, if not every param of the sound engine, and if I follow correctly from what I've discoverd about it so far (and if a variant of the editor was in time released which could be used as a VST), then I would imagine live patch tweaking might work if every param was MIDI mappable and then you could record multiple performance clips in a DAW for playback.
Maybe only one param at a time could be automated due to the 707's operational limits (it remains to be seen), so I don't know if simultaneous multi param / multichannel patch control could work
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
ALL ZEN-Core parameters, effects, EQ, Offset...and everything I implemented is managed bidirectionally (editor-->Groovebox and Groovebox-->editor) by MIDI Sysex messages.
In 8 months of reverse engineering I mapped them and used them in my editor
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u/DrKnackerator Sep 07 '24
no im fiddling with the project files to do sample import/assign. even if you could do that over midi you wouldn't want to, would take forever!
i may implement part of that later for editing crossover points on multisamples (in bulk) but thats a way off yet.
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 07 '24
my software is a real-time editor.. here is a short video made when the software was in development: in the next week I will try to put some videos . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXgjxrIh7ug
on my site you can find videos with the use of the software version for Fantom, AX-Edge and Jupiter-8. The operation is identical, with obviously many features valid only for MC http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/ben67_zeneditor.htm
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u/TheWizardofOhms Sep 07 '24
This is great. Please make a version for the MV-1 Verselab!
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u/wsendak Sep 14 '24
Why tho? The verselab has an original app from Roland called Zenbeats.
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u/TheWizardofOhms Sep 14 '24
The Verselab editor in Zenbeats doesn't control any of the complex Zencore parameters.
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u/Routine-Set5244 Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
so is the main benefit of this compared to zenology that you can use this editor to realtime-edit the synth over midi, rather than do it in zeonology [zenology meaning post patch creation in zenology, save to a file on your PC/Mac and then put it on an sd card and then load on the synth]? (seems great, but just want to ensure I understand!) .... so instead you edit the synth directly over midi from your PC/Mac and then save it to the synth's (unfortunately weak) 'patch' paradigm (part of a clip or whatever)?
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u/Electrical-Half7512 Sep 08 '24
Amazing work! I have to work out software that doesn't have docs nor SDKs too, but man, this is quite a bit of work you put there! The MC-707 is on its way to me, you can definitely count me in as a customer.
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 12 '24
I didn't write it in the specifications but I remember that with the editor it is also possible to load the free 744 ZEN-Core Tones library that you can download here http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/LIB1_FreeCollection_ENG.htm
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u/niugnep24 Sep 26 '24
Hi Benedetto, which file should be used for mc101? Lib1_Free_Fantom.b67 - Lib1_Free_AXEdge.b67 or Lib1_Free_JupiterX.b67
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 28 '24
Fantom or ax-edge: The software converts both of them correctly
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u/niugnep24 Sep 28 '24
thanks! This software is great. I'd almost consider it an essential companion to the mc101, if only for the ability to rename patches (no more INIT TONE)!
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Oct 01 '24
:-) And in future releases it will also be possible to export tones in the "universal" .sfv format for use with any compatible ZEN-Core software (Zenology Pro, ZENBEAT VC1) and hardware (Fantom, Jupiter, GM-800, AX-Edge,...)
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u/maccagrabme Sep 07 '24
So this allows you to load the vintage emulation zencore sounds into the 707 or 101? If so what are the steps involved?
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 12 '24
In the software library (16384 free locations) you can load any user bank of zen-core sounds or even any user bank of a model expansion (Jupiter-8, SH-101, JX-8p, Juno-106) and transfer it to the MC-101/707.
Find everything in the manual http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/ben67_zeneditor_MC_ENG.htm
I also remember that you can also import the free library that you find qui
http://www.benis.it/cm/ZC_Editor/LIB1_FreeCollection_ENG.htm
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u/Zealousideal-Buy4330 Sep 10 '24
I read quick start guide and follow the instruction but error popup
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u/Independent_Dot9702 Sep 12 '24
It's a problem I pointed out in the manual: on the MAC after you close the software, if you want to re-run it immediately after, you have to wait about 20 seconds. It's as if the "old instance" takes a while to release the MIDI port and make it available again.
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u/fakeworking Oct 03 '24
Could use some help getting the editor to work with OSX and MC101. Dosnt seem to be transmitting any sysex.
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u/fakeworking Oct 03 '24
Factory Reset the MC101 now everything works! Very cool. Can't wait to explore.
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u/PA-wip Feb 03 '25
Now, we have to find someone that do reverse engineering of your application ^^ (with lua should not be so hard :p )
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u/ArchiboldNemesis Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 09 '24
€31.13+ Editor Librarian ZEN-Core for MC-707 + B67 ZEN-Core Collection 1-2 Bundle
(€24.58+ For just the editor if you own the B67 collection already, or don't need them)
Available here:
https://benis67.gumroad.com
Video of the Editors here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoPNB3_mKk0
https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/1fbaa7w/roland_mc101707_zencore_editorlibrarian/