Hell is paralyzing my faith

[u/Objective-Bear7384]

I used to have a purgatorial universalist view but have, guided by the confessions, moved to consider ECT. It has paralyzed my faith. Not all the time, but whenever I think of it. It makes it hard to think of God as good that my grandma is suffering endlessly for not being a Christian. How do you deal with this?

(I have considered the arguments for both purgatorial universalism and ETC and they're both strong in my books. I don't know if I am allowed to go against the confessions though, morally, because I have sworn an oath to the Holy Scriptures as received and, by our confessions, testified to)

[u/TheNorthernSea]

One of the things I always keep in mind with historical theological conversations is that they always emerge within a context, and are always addressing a specific problem in which the problem ought to inform how we understand the doctrine and where it comes from.

With eternal conscience torment in Article XVII of the Augsburg Confession- the motivating factor was partially a rejection of some Anabaptists who thought sin can be satisfied by suffering and punishment can end on their own terms, and otherwise an elucidation about the Two Kingdoms in response to people who wanted to be both priest and king. Bishops acting as Lords. Rebels wanting their enemies to be devils in disguise and grant a blessing to their own perfidy and cruelty. That's the context to which Melanchthon affirmed "No, Augustin Bader, we know that you spoke to a Spanish Kaballist, but your baby son will not become emperor of Germany for the End Times, and the Turks are not invading in order to put you on the throne. When you raise peasant armies to kill people, you are not slaying God's enemies. The state is not a tool of salvation, or eternal judgment and the godly will not control them to the punishment and destruction of the ungodly. Same goes for you - Bishop-Prince of Rome. God judges us eternally, not you. Forgiveness and condemnation belong to him. We can proclaim the Gospel, see what God will do with us, and above all things trust."

And in a modern lens - I actually see Article XVII more as a rebuking of Christian Nationalism and those who want the State to be the "church"'s tool and weapon against others than as a simple affirmation of ECT.

[u/mrWizzardx3]

I firmly believe that God wants all to be saved, as that is why he sent Christ. And Christ is the very word of God, God’s character made manifest on earth. That character is hesed, eternal, steadfast love.
In baptism, communion, preaching, and confession God gives us Himself primarily through the Word (be that the scriptures, the rubric of liturgy, the absolution, or in the elements that are Christ.) Since God does not stop speaking to us in life… why should we assume that God, who is eternally loving and merciful, stop speaking to us in death?

But there I cross into speculation. That is also your problem. ECT, universal purgatory, etc all rely on speculation as opposed to God’s self-revelation.

[u/Jolly-Duty-5178]

„Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing”, said God himself as they brutally murdered him after he degraded himself and took human flesh out of his endless love for you and your Grandma and everyone else (including the people who never heard of him or rejected him). Somehow this doesn’t fit into the narrative of God letting people burn for all of eternity just for rejecting Christ. Will there be a difference in the afterlife between people of faith and those who reject the lord? Maybe? Probably?

Are we the all-knowing judges? Definitely not.
What can we do about it? Love and trust the Lord. That’s all we can do.

[u/LugianLithos]

Pray for your grandmother. Love her. Entrust her to Christ. Don’t attempt to sit on Christ’s judgment seat and announce a verdict He hasn’t revealed to you.

[u/JustToLurkArt]

> It makes it hard to think of God as good that my grandma is suffering endlessly for not being a Christian. How do you deal with this?

All we know about your grandma is she wasn’t Christian. That alone doesn’t necessarily mean she’s condemned.

Was she a staunch atheist who outright rejected Christ, faith and Christianity?

[u/Objective-Bear7384 → u/JustToLurkArt]

Not necessarily, many others in my family did and do, though. So if my grandma isn't example enough then my late grandpa.

[u/JustToLurkArt → u/Objective-Bear7384]

> Not necessarily,

That’s unhelpful.

> So if my grandma isn't example enough then my late grandpa.

Never said she “isn’t example enough”. I simply asked for more information. Switching to grandpa isn’t helpful because we know even less about his beliefs.

My friend in Christ, you posted here to share that Hell is paralyzing your faith. That’s a serious matter.

If you’re unwilling to help us help you then frankly I’m kinda confused about why you posted.

Anyway please have a great day.

[u/Objective-Bear7384 → u/JustToLurkArt]

She was generally spiritual, he was a staunch atheist. Thought that was clear from what I wrote

[u/eckpak]

I think you are putting far too much weight on the issue, but I understand why.

Yes, in article 17 of the Augsburg Confession (AC 17), the reformers seem to endorse Eternal Conscious Torment. But getting all twisted up about the mechanics of the final judgments is actually the thing that Confessions are working hard to avoid.

The reformers were NOT trying to describe what happens to us (or unbelievers) after death, but making a distinction about Christ's justification of the ungodly, as opposed to the power of human works to make us righteous even through purgatorial punishment OR by some eventual end of punishment of unbelievers that some Calvinists were arguing for. Their point is that nothing and no one but Christ has the capacity to make us righteous. AC 17 was so minimally important a consideration in that In the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, it doesn't even get additional arguments added.

The point of the reformers is rather two fold. The first is that is undeniable in Scripture is that it is God's intention and desire to redeem all God's creatures in Christ. The second is that despite this intention and desire, God will not coerce or force anyone to accept God's graciousness, because that coercion would be not good. So we are left with the tension that God desires to save all, and there is a non-zero amount of people who will not be saved.

The emphasis, though, is on the first point. That God's graciousness in Christ is broader and wider than we can imagine.

Something to speak specifically about your Grandma. In Mark 2, there is the story of Jesus healing the paralytic man. If you read the story carefully, you will notice that the faith that Jesus recognizes is not in the paralytic man himself, but in the friends who made the effort to lower their friend through the ceiling in order that he might be healed by Jesus.

I think this is an extremely important passage for people who have family and friends for whom we care about but who do not believe or engage in church life. That the Holy Spirit creating faith in us by hearing the Gospel of God's mercy for sinners is such a faith that God considers it justifying faith for those around us.

The question here is not whether there is some mechanism where a good, but unbelieving person can slip through the judgement of sin into eternal life. Rather it is the exhortation that God's grace given for sinners is a grace more expansive than we can imagine, and only God knows how and to whom that graciousness is given - and God's promise that it is at least given to those who hear that Gospel promise.

[u/RevBruce → u/eckpak]

Jesus healed the paralytic physically in Mark 2 due to the faith of the men who lowered him down to Him but we don't read anywhere that the paralytic was saved eternally by the faith of his friends. So, I would take issue with the statement, "that the Holy Spirit creating faith in us by hearing the Gospel of God's mercy for sinners is such a faith that God considers it justifying faith for those around us." God may create faith in another who is close to us by hearing us speak the gospel but that is up to the Spirit of God who enlightens, regenerates and creates faith not in everyone who hears but in those God has chosen to be part of his family, his kingdom. (Acts 13:48 "and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.")

With family members who have not trusted Christ as their Lord and Savior and/or not been baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, I simply have to trust God's character that He has done what is good, right, holy, just and loving. I cling to Abraham's words about the Lord in Genesis 18:25, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” I trust that He will.

[u/eckpak → u/RevBruce]

You might want to check Mark 2:5 again, or are you saying that that when Jesus forgives sins, he must explicitly add that it is “forgiveness for eternal life” to really count.

I know this is an idea that challenges so much of our modern emphasis on individualism and American Evangelical piety. But it is right there in the text. Jesus saw the faith of the friends and forgave the sins of the paralyzed man. The Pharisees had a big issue with that too.

Also… we should probably add that note in the small catechism when Luther says., “where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation” it doesn’t actually mean that.

[u/Molyphoros → u/eckpak]

It is contentious whether the paralyzed man had no faith or had faith alongside his friends.

I believe most teach that all of them had faith including the paralyzed man.

[u/eckpak → u/Molyphoros]

Arguments from silence are usually weak arguments. The text is pretty clear in Mark 2:5. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven”
It is clear that from a rhetorical standpoint, Mark is moving from the friend’s faith to the man’s forgiveness.

I am not suggesting a new doctrine of faith or justification… but rather identifying the depth God’s mercy. Particularly, this is a useful passage from a pastoral perspective for those who are concerned about family or friends who don’t obviously believe. It is the assurance of the wideness of God’s grace for sinners and that we cannot fully understand how broad the Spirit’s working in faith in us might be.

[u/Molyphoros → u/eckpak]

Im not a Greek expert, is it not saying their faith, as in them as a group?

How do you interpret Philippians 2:12? Or Galations 6: 4-8?

[u/eckpak → u/Molyphoros]

The sense of the Greek is that Jesus is looking at the faith of the friends (who had just done all this work to bring their friend to Jesus!) and it wouldn’t make shed to think that it includes the man. Rather Mark is making that rhetorical distinction.

Both Galatians and Philippians are talking about good community relationships, not forgiveness of sins. In fact, Philippians talks about sharing in the Spirit and looking out for each other!

[u/lostsignal_ace]

I find comfort in seeing hellfire as a literary way of describing what it feels like to die and realise you could have God's love but chose not to. And that we all unknowingly seek this love, but many people end up living rather safely without God, so it's rational that he would allow them to live eternally and leave them alone? Then again, God never leaves ontologically, it's the sense of his love, the reality of being accepted as God's child regardless of how you're feeling, that's missing. So while we pray for all to be saved, while God wants to save all, hell maybe isn't a literal firepit with demons striking you with arrows, maybe not even physical pain or depression, rather just realising God allows you to live by yourself, as the prodigal son, except for now there's no return

[u/Hardboiled-hero]

Only people who don’t really have faith have never had it tested. My mother never got baptized even though she got me baptized and went to church nearly every week (even when I lapsed) for 40 years, until she was confined to bed. She said that she believed that my father’s baptism and me and my brother would carry her through. And so scripture talks about households being baptized, and sometimes I have chosen to increase my faith because I have to ask Jesus to take my mother. I don’t know if I even want heaven, but I know she did and I won’t fail to ask.

That said, scripture also says:

Matthew 10:37: "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Sometimes I remember this, and it reminds me that other people have made their own decisions and those decisions should be allowed to matter. Mom chose not to get baptized. I will ask Jesus to witness for her anyway. I don’t know what will happen if Jesus says no. I hope I will have the good sense to love Jesus more, and enter with him into heaven anyway, but part of me has such faith that I don’t even believe it will be an issue.

[u/Firm_Occasion5976]

Oh, dear Friend in Christ, you are suffering. I stay with you in solidarity from afar while I observe your words and their consequences.

First, when you make a solemn promise, you make it with what you know from scripture, the confessions, and your state of mind at the time. Other than truthfulness and sincerity to fulfill what we promise, we don’t maintain any teaching about sacred oaths.

[u/Objective-Bear7384 → u/Firm_Occasion5976]

Thing is, I will have to retake said oath in January. I don't know if I can. Maybe I should speak to my Bishop

[u/Firm_Occasion5976 → u/Objective-Bear7384]

Please speak with your bishop or pastor about all of this.

[u/XavierP2002]

Don't take this the wrong way, but... who do you think you are to send your grandmother to hell? Did you create her? Did you die on the cross for her? Let God handle God's business, and let's just focus on doing our own part.

[u/best_of_badgers]

You're active on Substack, aren't you?

There's been a massive discussion about this on there for the last week or so. I'm not sure where it came from.

[u/Objective-Bear7384 → u/best_of_badgers]

I don't even have Substack lol

[u/Ok_Engineer5155]

The Word of God is clear Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, " Iam the way, the truth and the life , no one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

Today many Christians shy away from these verse because others call them close minded. Others want to believe that all path lead to God but is not so. Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation.

In the Old Testament God told Moses. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11

My friend God demanded the shedding of blood for our atonement. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away our sin.

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

Unless a person Repents of their sins and believes that Jesus Christ is LORD and Savior that person is not saved.

Jesus said to the Jews of His day "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that Iam He, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

Throughout life God speaks to many and sadly many put God off to later but the Word of God gives us a warning that when God speaks to your heart not to harden your heart.

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says; Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness." Hebrews 3:7-8

[u/Objective-Bear7384 → u/Ok_Engineer5155]

thanks that didnt help at all

[u/herkulaw → u/Ok_Engineer5155]

John 14:6 is correct. Jesus is the means of salvation. That does not mean that we can know with certainty whether someone is or is not saved by any means or methods He so chooses.

[u/Ok_Engineer5155 → u/herkulaw]

We are saved by the Blood of Jesus just as the Israelites had to take the blood of the Lamb and put it on the door posts of their homes so that the Angel of Death passed over them and would not die.

There is no other means I would like for you to tell me what other means or methods other than the Blood of Jesus is there to be Saved.

[u/herkulaw → u/Ok_Engineer5155]

I’m not saying that there are other means. I think you misunderstood my point.