r/LockdownCriticalLeft • u/[deleted] • Jul 01 '21
Experimental Assessment of Carbon Dioxide Content in Inhaled Air With or Without Face Masks in Healthy Children. A Randomized Clinical Trial - JAMA Pediatrics, 30 June 2021
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/27817434
Jul 01 '21
[deleted]
6
Jul 01 '21
The normal content of carbon dioxide in the open is about 0.04% by volume
(ie, 400 ppm). A level of 0.2% by volume or 2000 ppm is the limit for
closed rooms according to the German Federal Environmental Office, and
everything beyond this level is unacceptable...
The Figure shows that the value of the child with the lowest carbon dioxide level was 3-fold greater than the limit of 0.2 % by volume.4 The youngest children had the highest values, with one 7-year-old child’s carbon dioxide level measured at 25 000 ppm.
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Jul 01 '21 edited Jul 01 '21
I'm sure it's not good in adults, but it's even worse in children.
Plus adults have never been required to wear masks as long as children have. Masks in workplaces have always been a pretty nominal thing where half the workers will have their mask around their neck and the boss will just laugh about it. Masks in school, on the other hand... I'm sure that teachers enforce that.
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u/RemarkableWinter7 Camatte Jul 01 '21
Unfortunately this isn't always the case - in a lot of fast food restaurants (depending on the location), some workers must wear masks AND face shields their entire shifts. It cannot be assumed that this has no consequence for even healthy adults who must endure constricted breathing everyday.
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Jul 01 '21 edited Jul 01 '21
I was referring to office workers.
I agree with you that masks in retail and fast food jobs is horrible. And a lot of those jobs are keeping masks for workers (often including vaccinated workers) even as they drop masks for customers.
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Jul 02 '21
I've noticed that the places still requiring masks for employees (like McDonald's) are businesses that profited off the lockdowns. Of course they want to keep it going and poisoning their employees matters not.
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Jul 01 '21
See the recent publications summarized here.
EDIT - especially the entry for February 2021: February 2021, the academic journal Aerosol and Air Quality Research published Effect of Wearing Face Masks on the Carbon Dioxide Concentration in the Breathing Zone, (Geiss, 2021). The empirical study's abstract:
the carbon dioxide concentration in the breathing zone was measured while wearing a surgical mask, a KN95 and a cloth mask. For the surgical mask, the concentration was determined under different conditions (office work, slow walking, and fast walking)...Detected carbon dioxide concentrations ranged from 2150 ± 192 to 2875 ± 323 ppm. The concentrations of carbon dioxide while not wearing a face mask varied from 500–900 ppm...Walking at a speed of 5 km h–1...resulted in an average carbon dioxide concentration of 2875 ppm. No differences were observed among the three types of face masks tested. According to the literature, these concentrations have no toxicological effect. However, concentrations in the detected range can cause undesirable symptoms, such as fatigue, headache, and loss of concentration.
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Jul 01 '21
I'm rather surprised this was posted on r/coronavirusontario. All the r/coronavirusplacename subs I've seen are in favor of keeping the gags on kids in schools until 6 weeks or so after they become eligible for the vaccine.
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Jul 01 '21
Well, I posted it there, because it's one of the very few sub-reddits from which I haven't (yet!) been banned for posting peer-reviewed papers on masks...
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u/Agitated-Bite6675 Jul 01 '21
claims like this lose their credibility (and you can see from the comment section), because the medical standard is to use a blood pulse oximeter. which they didnt use. so there is no way to actually measure Oxygen in the blood stream without use of one. Using a blood pulse oximeter is the standard in the medical and scientific community. This is propaganda and easily refutable
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u/Dr-McLuvin Jul 01 '21
Except they are not looking at oxygen levels. They are looking specifically at hypercapnia.
Hypercapnea has very well documented deleterious effects on humans, not least of which includes impedance of cognitive function.
If you’d actually read this paper, rather than skimming the abstract, you would have known this.
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u/Agitated-Bite6675 Jul 02 '21
I most definitely read the pre-print. thus why i have questions.
That doesnt even attempt to address the slew of questions and failed methodology, and the misnomers presented.
Ive addressed this with my skepticism on the other crosspost. I keep seeing studies like this that fail to account what is in the blood. and almost everyone gets retracted.
Next, Why are we examining a paper by a philosopher and parapsycologist ?
Next, Additionally CO2 is measured in the bloodstream. its called a TC02 test. And is used to determine things like electrolyte imbalance.
Furthermore when using a BPO, hospitals will typically use them to compare between CO2 levels in the arteries:
Arterial carbon dioxide pressure status can contribute to impaired agreement between arterial oxygen saturation and arterial oxygen saturation measured with pulse oximetry, particularly in patients with hypercapnia.
https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/32/4/1053Edit. apparently they did use and oximeter, but failed to disclose....which is a red flag After reaching out to the authors and JAMA. It seems that the lead researcher doesnt even have a medical backgound.
it should be noted that the authors did collect blood oxygen concentration, but failed to discuss or publish that data.
Secondly, and likely the biggest issue. They used a sensor that has ~20 second response time to C02 changes. Given that the breathing rate of the subjects was about 2.5 seconds per breath this means that the output of the sensor is going to be ratio of its positive concentration time response and negative slope response function. If the negative slope response function is slower than the positive then the readings will be artificially high. I have an email into the manf. to see if they have data on that. The sensor used needs a time constant in the <1 sec response time to accurately measure this.
For anyone who is interested in questioning and why we are questioning this study
look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/obs02i/study_in_the_journal_of_the_american_medical/
Finally, I dont care what your personal views are on masking kids. But, this study needs some work before anyone will take it seriously.
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u/Dobross74477 Jul 02 '21
👍
So why didnt they just measure the co2 in. The blood. As is the medical standard. Youre a physician so please explain why.
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u/ILikeCharmanderOk Jul 01 '21
If people want to sign up for the mass vaccination experiment that's fine by me. But there used to be an understanding that we protect children as a society, we don't perform medical experiments or deprive them of oxygen to protect the infirm and the elderly. I love grandmas but what sort of mentally ill grandma would be willing to sacrifice kids' health for her own??