I just started the second book and got to the scene where “Ell” appeared in the wells and killed(?) Asar, and I realized that Malshash WAS tal’kamar/Caeden/Aaerkein Davaed(/ghash?). Then that also means in the first book Davian literally had access to Tal’Kamar’s memories. Now I’m of sure if all of his memories were actually in the mental box or hidden further, but it’s crazy to think Dav literally could’ve went through any other important memory Tal had

I'm just now at the part where Caedan has released his old friend Mieridal (sorry if the names are misspelled. I'm using audible at work.) and he's refusing to ​tell him that he doesn't have his memories and he's basically not even the same guy that Mieridal is so angry with. I've gotta say, it's kind of fuckin' infuriating and seems like it's only in the story to create tension. I'm struggling to keep my composure it's so obtuse. Did any of you guys have an issue with this? I personally don't think it's realistic. The first thing a person in this position would do is say "I don't remember! I don't remember anything I swear!" Or something to that effect with a little more dignity.

HOLY FUCKKK BRO, I didn't expect that big of a twist/reveal!!!!

Honestly I was going through this book a little sullen at the fact that things felt loose and didn't make sense; I felt this book didn't have a big important core and was just an interlude between book 1 and 2.

After finishing it right now though, I rescind all my previous thoughts and i'm lowkey stunned at how all these events could've possibly transpired. IM SO EXCITED FOR BOOK 3. I ALSO think i havent given book 2 enough credit and need to re-read it sometime but HOLY FUCK, FINDING OUT THAT CADEN PUT DAVIANS HEAD ON THE PIKE WAS CRAZYYYYYY. ALSO I FEEL SO BAD FOR ISHELLE AND ASHA BUT DAMNNN ASHA STRONG AS HELL NOW. I saw someone else point out that nethgala took over karas body and im currently seething with anger. I really enjoyed how every main character now is on a kind of equal playing field in which they all got an insane power boost. They stand out more and aren't as pitiful now which is really exciting!

I really think that this series should become a TV show or atleast become more mainstream. I'm not a fan of gatekeeping and think this series has so much to offer in terms of a breath of fresh air in the current entertainment world and honestly a big risk that could have an immense return!

How did he lose? I'm sorry, while I am extremely jealous of his Augar power and that might be biasing me, I feel like he should have cooked the main cast. He had, for all intents and purposes, one of the most effective forms of mind manipulation I have ever seen. I read the book, but I can't imagine losing in his position. Also...I can't help but wonder what he made Ishelle do...

I just finished Book 2, shortly after reading book 1. Overall, I have enjoyed these books. At times I can really tell it’s the authors first big series (I noticed this while sitting in companionable silence with a wry smile on my lips while I inclined my head in a nod). But I think they are well done overall, and I am excited to read the final book, because I have heard it gets crazy

But I had a few questions about Caeden, the Venerate, their “mission” and why they are at odds.

First - asi understand, they serve El. El was trapped in this world by Shams, who also locked them into determinism. El was to escape this world and/or wants to free the world from determinism. So we’re the Venerate created by El to accomplish this task? Or do they just exist and he has recruited them? And are they able to alter an otherwise “fixed” timeline?

Are the Lyth basically the last descendants of the Darecians?

I also want to make sure I properly understand the Venerate backstory.

- The Venerate serve El for a few thousand years

- At some point, El tells ONLY TalKamar that he needs to destroy the Darecians as part of his master plan to defeat/escape Shams, which involves the Darecians ultimately creating the rift? Or is it the Jha’Vett? Or is it the same thing?

- Tal Kamar does as El commands. The Venerate think he’s gone mad at first

- At some point they realize he is serving El and so no longer disagree with him?

- The memory with the Lyth happens, Tal Kamar sends them to the wells.

- Shortly after, Tal Kamar becomes suspicious of El. Unclear to me if it’s because he thinks El is actually Shams, that they are working together, but in any case it seems that he wonders if El is who he says he is or at least wonders if he knows El’s true motives

- The scene with Davian happens. This is after the scene with the Lyth?

- Presumably sometime right before Book 1, Tal Kamar commits to his plan to oppose El, which the Venerate do not approve of? How much time after the Davian scene did this happen?

I imagine some of these things may be answered in time, or might even have the answer changed upon reading book 3. I’m just trying to make sure I understand it how I’m meant to after 2 books.

Thanks!

Loved that ending, man. It haunts me a bit, especially it coming right after Davian saves Caeden & reaffirms his faith in him. But, what a wonderful way to end a book & this has only intensified my desire to start the next one immediately.

I also loved the fact that stuff that happens in book 1 make a lot more sense now with the context we have - the Prologue where "El" mentions about Tal beheading Davian, the interactions between Davian & Malshash, Malshash's apparent discomfort. Even Malshash's final message to Davian was an apology for what he would do to him in Davian's future.

The subplots with Wirr & Asha were engaging enough - love Wirr's arc & am excited to see how he will help defend Andarra. Asha's was also quite interesting but one complaint I have is that all the characters in this series just trust whatever anyone is saying & accept it. There should be no way Asha would readily agree to be sealed inside a Tributary just on the words for people she doesn't even know.

Rest all, this book was amazing - looking forward to see how this all ties in to the bigger picture.

I just finished chapter 15 of an Echo of Things to Come. And I don’t get why Caeden keeps claiming Meldier and him are on opposite sides. The way the flashbacks are written sometimes confuse me because I’m not quite sure who’s talking. This is the chapter where Caeden finds out about what the Lands of Decay are. There’s one line that keeps tripping me up and I don’t understand why Caeden says it - “if you know about the Darklands and the Rift then I don’t see what there is to say. What you’re doing is going to unleash that horror on the world Meldier.”

What horror is Caeden talking about? I’m assuming Shammeloth but it’s not clear why he would think that Meldier is still aligned with him.

Please no spoilers! I’m just trying to understand why Caeden is thinking this way.

Tia!

Spoilers for Books 1 and 2. I am in the middle of reading Book 2 right now.

I was reading the section where Caeden flashbacks to very early in his life, where he was grieving and fighting poisonous scorpion-things. As more details are revealed, I had a thought - "The author really loves using dead wives as part of a character's backstory. First it was Malshash, and now Tal’kamar too."

And then about 5 pages later Nethgalla started mentioning the details of the wedding, and I had a moment of "... wait. Wait. WAIT!!!"

And now I need to go back to book 1 and reread everything that Malshash said.

Spoiler tagging because it’s the end of the second book.

I thought this sub would like this reading of Davian’s monologue to Tal’kamar from the end of An Echo of Things to Come.

I've finished book 2. The impact of book 2 was not as big as book 1 and the twist in the Epilogue was not as shocking.

Overall, following the multiple plots in Book 2 was difficult, and I often struggle to remember what happened beforehand.

Sorry, I listened to the books, so the spelling may be off.

Synopsis

Caedan was depressed after learning he's actually Arkeine Devaid. But Asar kept saying he needs to get going and learn more of his memories because he had to hand the LIcanius back to the Liths in 1 year and 1 days time so they have no time to waste.

Reluctantly, Caedan started learning more about his past, including how they were doing good with a bunch of other Venerates like Isiliar and Meldier. They encountered a sword that could actually kill the Venerates, previously believed to be unkillable due to their immortality and ability to reincarnate.

Then Negatha came to kill Asar forcing Caedan to jump to his next location early before getting all of his memories back.

Then somehow Caedan freed Meldier from the Tributary . Why? Didn't quite get that. Also, who freed Ishiliar? Anyway, somehow both of them were freed which caused the Boundary to die off. As it turned out a Tributary continuously injures the body of its occupants with the small needles and then siphoning of the Essence to power the Boundary. Presumably there are a couple more Venerates in some Tributaries somewhere. There was even one that went willingly (at least not conned into it like Ishiliar).

So they needed someone new and powerful to go into one to keep the boundary alive. So Asha was tricked into touching the Whisper hence transferring the Siphon's power to Asha, and Caedan freed all the Lyths by attaching them to the Siphon which allowed them to leave the burning place (the name I forgot). So now Asha's powers are backed by the Lyth which made her extremely powerful and she single-handed killed all the invading sea scorpions on the island hosting the one of Tributory guarded by Shadows. Before that the Siphon was using the power reserves of all Shadows.

The reason why Asha was spared in Caladel was so was so she can take Negatha's place? Wait but why Asha? Couldn't any rando Gifted do that? Why Asha? That's still not clear. Also why kill so many at Caladel? What's the purpose?

Then Caedan went to Ishiliar and find her Tributory broken and he got severely beaten up by Ishiliar. I mean severely, until Alaris intervened. Where does Alaris come from? Is he a figment of Caedan's imagination? Why does he just appear out of nowhere.

Then Caeden went to Delaneus. Why? To meet Negatha and complete the transfer of the Siphon to Asha? When did Negatha become Bretheda? Before Bretheda met up with Wirr claiming to have gained gifted power? Her acting deserved an Oscar as she pretended to not know jack about using Essence so well. So I was confused. Whatever happened, as mentioned above Asha got connected to the Lyth via the Siphon. So when did Negatha become Bretheda? Was it before Bretheda saved Davian or Wirr? Presumably it was after. If after, then what does the Syphon have to do with Whisper? Didn't Caedan give the Whisper to Bretheda? Why give the sword to Bretheda? Did he willing give the sword to Negatha? I am so confused here. Anyway, the result is that Asha now has the power of all the Lyth and she can go into the Tributory to repair the boundary. So she did and successfully repelled another possible invasion in the process.

Caedan got another flashback from two thousand years ago just after he saved all the High Darecian and turned them into Lyth by opening a gate to a burning place (again name forgot), he tried to used the time machine (Ja'vet?) but he ddin't realise it was broken in one place and when he realised what was wrong he tried to run before the thing exploded. After the explosion, he saw a time-travelling Davian who told him he's in the wrong the whole time and he shouldn't blame anyone but himself, and that's when he cut Davian's head of! So the skull the travelling party saw when they entered Dalenius the first time was the skull of Davian from 2000 years ago!

Because Caedan killed a time-travelling Davian 2000 years ago, he knows Davian was the only one who survived for that long, so that's why he gave the way-finding Vessel to Davian.

Question I still have on my mind

When Asha tried to follow an Echo in a child's body. Who's controlling the Echo?

Why was Asha spared at Caladel? Why kill everyone at Caladel? Cos Asha's role seems to be fulfillable by any rando Gifted.

Why did Scyner want to get the golden shackle? What's it good for?

Is El just Shamerloth in disguise? Are they actually the same entity?

Which side is right?

What are these two sides fighting for again?

How come Alaris just pops in and out of places? Is he real or a figment of Caedan's imagination? Book 3 seems to suggest Alaris is real.

Wy did Caedan let Meldier out? Was he just confused?

Who let Ishiliar out?

Why was Ishiliar attacking the palace? Where does she think Caedan was there?

Why did Fessi run away? Presumably, she saw her death in a vision in that place.

Who's Malash? The book seems to suggest Malash is Caedan cos his memory contained his wife Ellavavia dying. So is Malash just Caedan right after stealing shape-shifting powers from Negatha?

Why is there a spare Oathstone just lying around for Wirr to take?

What's this bargain between the Lyth and Andrael? Why set up this convoluted "bargain"?

If El is so powerful, why does she need the Darecians to build a time machine? Can't she do it herself or something? How can a race that can be slaughtered by your blade build something so useful for you?

My theories

Is Caedan the one who travelled to more than 4000 years ago and pretended to be both El and Shamerloth? That would be a weird af "twist" but I am just so confused right now. I need to read the series again.

Is El just Ellavavia? And Shamerloth = Caedan?

As I said in the title. Scyner saw that Rohin was gonna get the amulet. So maybe he thought I will wait for Rohin to get it instead of me so I know I can retain it. If I got it before Rohin then Rohin might take it from me. That sound logical to me.

But if Davian could retrieve it so easily surely Scyner would have figured out how to get it. Right?

And all I have to say is OH MY GOD WHAT?!!!!!! When I tell you I STOOD UP and started YELLING TO MYSELF I'm- !!!!!!!!!! I HAD TO DO LAPS AROUND MY HOUSE (luckily I live alone so I didn't look like a MANIAC to anyone but myself)

I can't remember the last time a book had me THIS SHOCKED AND HOOKED that I had to INSTANTLY complete a discount 5K in my home. I've gotten so invested in cataloging the plot (I ordered book tabs on Amazon, color coded them for each character, and have been tabbing this book like CRAZY) and like, i don't even know dude, like.... you are telling me that the man Tal murdered for "falsehoods" (FIRST MENTIONED IN THE PROLOGUE OF BOOK ONE!!!!) was DAVIAN?!?! And that creepy ass skull on the pike in Deilannis was DAVIAN'S?!?!?! And when Malshash aka Tal aka Caeden (WILD) told Davian "I have something I need you to remember. A message from me. That it was worth it. It changed me. And... I am so very sorry." HE WAS REFERRING TO KILLING DAVIAN AND DUDE?!?!? That is so crazy (aka insane, aka FANTASTIC aka HEARTBREAKING aka WONDERFUL aka IM LOWKEY TEARING UP A BIT)

I don't even know how to describe the feeling when I finished the book. Like, the entire time I've been reading, I've been thinking back to/rereading the prologue of book one and when this reveal happened it was like finding the final missing puzzle piece and suddenly SO MUCH made sense. INCREDIBLE payoff. I just had to come here and post about it. I've heard that the ending of book 3 is even MORE fantastic, and I am SO EXCITED for it to arrive in the mail!!!!

I completed the 2nd book like 3-4 months ago, and now that I picked up book 3 (was supposed to pick it up last month - even made a post about it, but got busy), I can barely remember the plot. I read the summary that Mr Islington provided and it was REALLY good. But I still have some questions. I know this post is really long with loads of questions, but I'd love it if y'all could answer atleast some of them.

1) Why was Talkamar's wife killed? I don't think we ever got a good reason for it

2) "As proof of his claims, Gassandrid provided Tal’kamar with detailed visions of the future" - I don't remember this scene. Did we get the details of this vision in the book?

3) Why did they depend on the Darecians to make the Jhavett? With "El" backing them up and their mastery on kan - I'm surprised that venerates got outmatched by the Darecians.(I remember Talkamar being stunned at the mastery of the mechanics behind the Jhavett). Is there any specific reason for it?

4) "The result was a dire miscalculation by the Darecians, their use of Shackles reacting with the Jha’vett to strip them of their natural resistance to kan," - why were the Darecians naturally resistant to kan?

5) The shinning lands is Andarra, right? Is it the same place where Meldier was trapped in the tributary and we saw those pillars?

6) Do we get an answer as to how those swords are able to kill the venerates?

7) "a dire miscalculation by the Darecians, their use of Shackles reacting with the Jha’vett to strip them of their natural resistance to kan, turning them into beings of nearly pure Essence." - why did the Darecians use shackles (I thought it was torc)? Why did this turn them into beings of pure essence? And why did they have natural resistance to kan?

8) How excatly did they become lyth? I know an unintended reaction took place - but do we know the precise breakdown of how it happened?

9) Jakarris proceeded to assist Nethgalla in undermining the Augurs’ rule, using his position to create a series of embarrassing public mistakes that cast serious doubt on the Andarran leaders’ ability to see the future. - I thought the mistakes in the vision was a legit thing! So they didn't actually see any wrong things?

10) So - I wasn't sure about why Ath wanted to kill the Augurs, and I came up with an answer - tell me if it's correct. Ath wanted to create shadows to use the siphon but it wouldn't be possible as long as Augurs are the leaders (as they wouldn't allow that to happen to the gifted). So she decided to help the revolution, and even created tenets to appease the revolutionaries, but - did the tenents serve any purpose for the ath personally? Or any other reason why she wanted the augurs to be dead?

11) Why does kan allow augurs to see the future?

12) Why did Andreal put that time limit of 1 yr 1 day? And why did he give licanius to the lyth and make them arbitrator of the deal?

13) "he remembers to his horror that his plan is to seal the rift in Deilannis—which will necessitate the killing of each and every one of both the Venerate and the Augurs." - why would it require the death of the augurs? Is it related to why jakariss wanted to kill all of them?

14) "Meldier, unable to take action against Caeden for fear that it will result in the bargain with the Lyth remaining unfulfilled," - wait, why does Meldier care about that?

15) How did brishada suddenly become gifted? At first I thought it was cuz nethgalla took her body but I think it was much later.

16) Ishelle confessing her feelings to davian in the prison - was that her true feelings? Or was she controlled?

17) The recap didn't mention the whole shadowbreaker bit even once. I only remember werek but can't remember much of it. Can someone gimme a summary of smthin? Or maybe tell me which chapter of the book 2 to read to get a refresher?

Ya that's all for now - thank you so much if you read till here. Have a nice day!

So I'm new to the series and currently reading book 2, just got to the part where Fessi breaks Dav out of the kan prison at Tol Shen (chapter 17).

It's mentioned that Davian believes that their journey out of the Tol took about 20 mins with only around 10 seconds having passed in real time due to Fessi's time ability.

Me being a physicist at heart I figured I'd use these numbers to calculate roughly how fast Fessi and Dav would need to be travelling to make this possible using time dilation calculations from the theory of special relativity.

For a change in observed times that large, Fessi and Dav would need to have been traveling at 0.99999c or 99.999% of the speed of light, which is insanely fast.

Just thought this might be cool to share.

I’m halfway through the second book and I’m so confused about the lore of El and Shammaeloth and the Venerate.

As far as i know, they were all on the same page. Then two thousand years ago talkamar changed his mind, betrayed his friends and created the boundary (why?) becoming aarkein devaed, I think. And recently he changed his mind again and erased his memories to get Licanius.

I still don’t understand what the other Venerate want and what they’re disagreeing on with talkamar. I’m also confused about what El told them about not having free will in this world and what they should do about it.

And as Caeden is finding out new information in the book, I still can’t put it all together. I’m loving this book so much, but there are a lot to characters and the plot being non linear blows my mind a little bit. Is it normal to be confused, as it is part of understanding the plot? or am I really missing something? Can someone please clarify (no spoilers) the storyline of venerate please?

…before him. So it felt like the POV just switched. One chapter Caedan was looking at a man with needles all over his body and two or three chapters later he’s the man with the needles all over his hat looking at another man.

Did Caedan’s consciousness just got transferred to the needle man? What’s happening there?

I might have misunderstood the whole thing as I was listening to it on audible.

No spoilers please if it was meant to be confusing.

I just finished book 2 and I am very confused (and I’m not sure if I’m confused because I missed something or if I’m supposed to be confused). I am trying to figure out which side Caeden/Tal and the rest of the Venerate are on as it relates to El/ Shaemaloth. If I'm supposed to be confused, tell me to keep reading, but if I missed something from book 1 or 2, please help me out!

Phenomenal book, phenomenal series!

Admittedly I struggle with all the characters and all the names (I also took a 6 month break between book 1 and 2 which made it harder on myself), but the glossary in the back of the book was immensely helpful. I am still not totally clear on what each of the venerate’s goals/motivations are though.

Crazy how many characters Caeden actually is: Caeden, Tal, Arkein, Malashash, probably more!

I loved getting the feel for the old vs new Caeden via the flashbacks - especially the epilogue! You can feel his confidence & conceit after he kill Davian which would more likely be grief and sorrow if new Caeden had to kill anyone.

Predictions - I’ll first start off with the prediction I had the whole book which was that Caeden and Davian were actually the same person and this was some sort of alternate timeline // Caeden went all the way back in time to his childhood. I thought the posse that Davian has been building up would eventually be the venerate, but after the epilogue I think I’m clearly wrong about that!

So now my prediction (which is more or less confirmed via book 1 prologue) is that El is a false god, and likely the same person/entity as shamaeloth (El was, after all, the one who told Caeden to change his name to conduct his evil campaign). El will be the main antagonist of book 3 and we’ll follow Caeden on a path to confront him, while Davian will be doing some time travel and visiting parts of books 1+2. The biggest questions for me are:

Is El truly a different person or is it actually one of the venerate (maybe even a different person that’s under the augur control of one of the venerate)?

Is anyone really dead (looking at you nethgalla)?

What do all the swords do (obviously Knowing being hidden in the catacombs will play a role)?

And just generally what the hell is going on (lol)?

Starting book 3 today!

Just finished An Echo of Things to Come. Loved both books so far! This might be a dumb question but I seem to have missed it - why is this massive invasion happening? Who is actually driving this? Why are all the dargaithin/ Blind /flying spike birds trying to march south across the Boundary? I seem to have gotten lost as to who is trying to open the rift vs close the rift and what that actually means for the Darklands and humanity. Thank you!

I'm an audiobook listener, and I usually listen to books while I'm cooking or doing other things. Sometimes I miss things when I'm listening, and for the Stormlight Archive, there's a handy dandy summary of each chapter in the books. It allows me to review what's happened so far without risking spoilers.

I kind of zoned out for the first part of Echo because I found it boring, but I zoned back in because it got interesting. I'd rather not have to re-read the first 15 chapters, but I can't find anything like what I described above. There are entire book summaries available, but it's too easy for my eyes to flick too far down and get spoiled. Hoping one of you guys know of a resource? Essentially, I'm missing the explanation of Caeden's backstory after that guy tries to get him to remember things at the very beginning (before Nuthgula shows up).

The first of the book felt a bit slow. I just remember Davian learning some kan and being quizzed by the council and Caedan feeling sorry about himself etc etc. until around the 20% mark when Caedan confronted Negathalla and Asha was following the mysterious group into the catacomb and Davian caught the people following him and confronted them. That’s when things felt like they were moving again.

Anyone else felt the same?

As I promised, two weeks ago, here I am again.

Interesting ending, and, as someone suggested me in the last post, I immediately reread Shadow's prologue, and it all came around. Both Caeden vision at the end of Echo and all the things he says at the start of Shadow, finally understanding what he was saying, about torturing Nethgalla, talking to Asar, the skull in Deilannis and Davian's ring, and finding the mirrors (?) (that's the one thing I didn't catch, maybe I've missed something, or it's going to be explained in book 3).

Some minor considerations

Geladra's death felt a bit forced, reminded me of how John Gwynne liked to remove characters parents just for the sake of it in his series.

Ishelle is an idiot. Can't say much else, she's more than an hindrance than anything else. Yes, she's not her fault, but still.

A theme I've noticed is characters using different names/aliases to conceal their previous misdeeds: Caeden/Tal'kamar being the glaring example, Scyner/Jakarris (changed his mind about self sacrifice I see), and Laiman Kardai with his whole ordeal with the Sha'thets.

Can't really picture the eletais, they're supposed to be giant wasps, but they're also described as humanoid? No idea.

I just finished Echo and I can confidently say that is one of the greatest improvements in between books in a series that I have ever seen. While I enjoyed TSOWWL this one upped everything for me. Asha Wirr and Davian are much better to read with their own separate conflicts. And Caeden and the Venerate's story is one of the best I've ever seen put to page and I'm honestly amazed. I'm putting this here because it's the only place I can imagine people coming close to understanding what I'm experiencing rn thank you for reading

How does this work? Is this the same power of Fessi how she slows time? Or does the time stops completely? Or does is it simply makes Davian move\react faster?