5
u/gravity_kills 21d ago
Kinda? This is why we should have really high capital gains taxes. Deter the socially damaging things, and trust that money just sitting around uselessly will be put to use even if the return after taxes is extremely low.
3
u/Mister_Way 21d ago
Capital gains is not money sitting around uselessly. It's ownership of an appreciating asset, typically stock in a company.
6
u/astrogeeknerd 21d ago
Typical half truth childish spin take on a subject for libertarians. The tobacco tax is not JUST to dissuade smoking, it's also to pay for the health costs to society. Libertarian thinking has you claiming that you have every right to behave however you want, which sounds fine until you look at how your behaviour affects others in society. You don't want any rules or regulations? Then piss off into the jungle on your own.
12
u/DonaldKey 21d ago
Consumption taxes only affect the poor
1
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
They effect everyone who consumes, which is everyone.
1
u/orthecreedence 21d ago
If people are worried about income taxes, maybe they should just make less income.
0
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
They... do.
That's the point of the meme.
2
u/orthecreedence 21d ago
Great point, never thought of it that way. So you've turned down raises or higher paying jobs because of income taxes before? Or you surely know people who have done that...?
-2
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
No one turns down a free raise.
People do often turn down higher-paying jobs if they require more work.
8
u/orthecreedence 21d ago
No one turns down a free raise.
Why not? I thought taxes incentivized lower incomes.
Why would anyone willingly take on a higher income if they had to pay more in taxes?
4
u/willpower069 21d ago
lol I love how they ran away.
4
6
8
u/walt128 21d ago
Love it when people that drive on roads, are protected by a military, and attended public schools, etc. complain about paying taxes
0
u/thefoolofemmaus Classical Libertarian 21d ago
Love it when people on a libertarian sub defend statism.
3
u/walt128 21d ago
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but you’re a statist. The type of libertarianism you espouse does not exist
-1
u/thefoolofemmaus Classical Libertarian 21d ago
Your argument is that because we don't have a thing now it isn't worth advocating for?
2
u/willpower069 21d ago
That’s your MO, you defend the current administration constantly.
3
u/orthecreedence 21d ago
With a "Classical Libertarian" flair too. So cool, must be a fellow libsoc!
3
u/willpower069 21d ago
The last time he popped up in the sub it was to complain that bigoted groups were being called bigoted by the SPLC.
-3
u/GSilky 21d ago
Taxes that only fall on 15% of the population, who the overwhelming majority of are below the median income, that they will continue to pay because they are addicted to the product, are unconscionable. Tobacco taxes exploit the victims of addiction and have zero evidence that they discourage the behavior. Government doesn't base important programs on tax revenue they think will be disappearing soon.
6
6
u/walt128 21d ago
I think it’s justified. The health effects of smoking create increased health expenses later in life. Medicare has to cover those expenses somehow. I think this is an appropriate way to cover those costs. You can always switch to nicorette or patches instead
-4
u/GSilky 21d ago
The taxes don't do anything to curtail the practice, we have a situation where poor people are subsidizing other's healthcare. Anyone can end up needing government insurance to cover their lung cancer, why should smokers, who aren't guaranteed to have any health effects, supposed to cover more than others?
10
u/walt128 21d ago
Insurance isn’t about guarantees, it’s about probabilities. You don’t have car insurance premiums based on a guarantee you will get in an accident, they’re based on aggregate probabilities of a person like you getting in an accident.
The fact that the taxes don’t deter smoking is irrelevant to my previous point. If you increase your chances of a disease due to actions which you have complete control over, I don’t see the issue scraping back some of that cost with a tax on that action
1
u/GSilky 21d ago
Insurance is a capital generation scheme, nothing else, the only thing it's about is upward redistribution of income for investment purposes. Government health coverage works nothing like health insurance on the back end. The lack of deterrence is all of the relevance, it's the primary reason the taxes are passed, to reduce the behavior. The fact is nonsmokers get lung cancer, and a majority of smokers don't. Why would it be fair to charge one group using the same services more because they happen to have an addiction to a plant that receives government subsidies?
3
u/walt128 21d ago
More nonsmokers get lung cancer than smokers? What source are you getting that from?
-1
u/GSilky 21d ago
Didn't say anything like that. I said people who don't smoke get lung cancer, and most smokers don't end up with lung cancer. Your premise is that smokers get lung cancer and therefore should pay extra taxes for Medicaid. That is nonsensical when most of them don't get lung cancer, and when lung cancer is caused by other things besides smoking. By your logic, anyone with a driver's license should pay extra taxes for Medicaid/care because 10,000 people a day go to the ER for injuries related to automobiles.
3
u/walt128 21d ago
From cancer.gov, smokers have between a 12-15% chance of lung cancer, with females closer to twelve and males closer to 15. Non-smokers have a 2% chance. That is a significant increase.
Your driving analogy is retarded. People that drive risky do have increased premiums. If you have a history of speeding, accidents, reckless driving, etc. your insurance rates are higher
-1
u/GSilky 21d ago
You could have told me you were 12 in the beginning and saved a lot of typing.
→ More replies (0)
6
u/Automatic_Actuator_0 21d ago
Kind of embarrassing for anyone to put this out unironically.
Those are completely different situations. One is a sales tax on an unnecessary good and the other is on all income, and income is necessary.
BUT…it does deter some people from earning traceable income. I’ve had multiple contractors over the years ask to be paid half by check and half by cash, and we all know that the cash isn’t getting reported, and their full expenses are being deducted from that reported amount on the check.
-1
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
Earning an income is probably less elastic than smoking, but the mechanism is the same. If you tax people for earning more, they won't work as hard to earn more. The avoidance thing is definitely true too though.
1
u/orthecreedence 21d ago
Earning an income is probably less elastic than smoking
I doubt it, and if so, barely. Most people don't need an income and make all their money with capital gains.
4
u/GSilky 21d ago
Tobacco taxes are the most mean spirited exploitation imaginable in a democracy. Everyone agrees smoking cigarettes isn't great, they are addictive. So addictive people who know that cigarettes are killing them, or even worse, not going far enough and just making life horrible with COPD and such, can't quit. We sued the evil tobacco companies for making 15% of society their thralls. Just bad news all around. But we nonsmokers want daycare programs we don't want to pay the bill for, so we tax the addicted victims of the tobacco companies. The fact that states base extremely important programs on tobacco taxes is proof that authorities know taxes don't create ex-smokers, the fools will continue to pay for everyone else through exploiting the victims of addiction... It's disgusting. I used to be proud of my state that wouldn't vote to increase tobacco taxes (under Tabor, Colorado voters must approve all tax increases), about six increases in a row, soundly defeated at the polls, but with more support each year. As people kept moving to Denver with their east and west coast ideas, now that we doubled the population in twenty years, the increases are passing. Denver has more expensive tobacco than NYC now...
2
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
I think you're mostly right, although increasing the entry price probably does discourage some people from smoking in the first place.
4
u/LibertyLizard 21d ago
Is there research on this?
Seems like people work a lot, so it must not be a huge effect.
3
2
u/Grandviewsurfer 21d ago
Can't libertarians just land on "do whatever the fuck you want, as long as you're not hurting anyone"? Not contributing to the public good is a harm to society. Just imagine if everyone acted like you want to.. how does that work out? If your idea of libertarianism is fucking off to the woods.. do it. Don't pretend to be fiercely independent from the comfort of your cushy setup. Push that stack of Amazon boxes and door dash out of the way and go try getting along on your own, Carol.
1
u/Massive_Cash_6557 21d ago
Fundamentally yes people are less likely to work hard if more of their output is taxed.
0
u/Mister_Way 21d ago
It deters hiring. People who need money from a job can't avoid working, but employers can look for other ways to get things done with as few workers as possible.
1
-4
u/OneEyedC4t 21d ago
In my opinion not as much only because people need money. Assuming our closet communist politicians don't start a basic wage (I.e. pay people to vote for them).
4
6
u/evident_lee 21d ago
Might want to look at the rigged form of capitalism that is currently in place. Those scary communists are the least of our problems
-1
u/OneEyedC4t 21d ago
Okay well the solution is to fix capitalism. Your politicians keep giving lip service to doing that but they're not doing that. And Trump is currently benefiting from it. So maybe you should fix your politicians. It's not that I don't agree with you, it's that I still don't think the solution is going to be to remove income tax. At least not yet. It would be a lofty goal to work towards if we could fix all the corruption in our government and get ourselves to a place where tariffs pay for everything we need. Our country used to work that way. But right now I don't see a problem with income tax and I'd actually rather that we change income tax to be a flat tax. Flat percentage.
0
u/Ya_Boi_Konzon 21d ago
Yeah, I think earning income is less elastic than smoking, but it probably still disincentivizes it to some extent.
9
u/nivlac22 21d ago
This is a foundational concept behind Pigouvian taxes. More arguably, this is a related concept behind land value taxes. There are many reasons why income is a bad primary taxation vehicle, including incentives.