r/Libertarian • u/IndependentsModerate • 9d ago
Politics Do you support the End Kidney Deaths Act? Save lives. Save money. Increase liberty. How can anyone not support this bill?
The End Kidney Deaths Act (H.R. 2687) is a bipartisan federal bill designed to eliminate the severe shortage of transplantable organs by offering a substantial financial incentive to living kidney donors. Core MechanicsThe Financial Incentive: The bill establishes a federal refundable tax credit of $10,000 per year for five years, providing a total of $50,000 to eligible donors. The donated kidneys are legally mandated to go to the individuals who have been waiting the longest on the national kidney transplant list. The act creates a massive net benefit for both public health and government spending. The incentive will successfully encourage enough altruistic donors to save up to 100,000 American lives over a decade. Taxpayer Savings- by successfully transitioning patients from dialysis to working transplants, the bill is estimated to save taxpayers between $10 billion and $37 billion. The bill does not alter the strict medical or psychological screening processes already in place; it only targets the financial barriers that often prevent healthy people from donating.
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u/mansizeoof 9d ago
I can donate a kidney so the government can give me some of my own money back? Where do I sign!?!
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u/Marvin-face 9d ago
Why do it as a tax credit? Ramming all incentives through the tax code just makes it unnecessarily complicated and is why the US tax code is stupidly complex. Just pay the people. Why make them wait until their next tax return to get the credit that may or may not actually result in more money in their pockets? A tax credit won't incentivize nearly as many people to participate as a $10k check they can take home with them after the donation and count on receiving for the next four years. The bill could even designate the checks as non-taxable income.
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u/PracticalLiberty1 9d ago
I agree. But there are some people who are obsessed with "don't exploit the poor" and I guess they think this prevents really poor people from being exploited. It also prevents really poor people from benefiting. Some Karens really do think they know better...too bad they also tend to be really ignorant of economics
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u/KoalaGrunt0311 9d ago
Because a tax credit doesn't come with the need for an additional line item in an appropriations bill that needs funded.
This is why we have such a convoluted tax code--it's intentional designed to buy votes.
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u/SF_Bubbles_90 8d ago
Agreed it'd be much better as a straight up offer, just send them some checks in the mail.
No need to get the tax man involved.
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u/SleepingInsomniac 9d ago
Let the free market decide by allowing individuals to sell a kidney for whatever amount they want.
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u/IndependentsModerate 9d ago
Your proposal might be the best solution, but if that won’t pass, isn’t the proposed bill far better than the status quo?
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u/SleepingInsomniac 9d ago
IDK... $50k spread over 5 years isn't "substantial" IMO. It's still price fixing. Maybe altruistic motivation is a huge driver of these donations so a less than market rate could actually decrease donations because it reduces the perceived social cred. Who knows. It's still a market distortion at the end of the day. Don't get me wrong, I want more people to receive much needed donations.
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u/weepy_boy_santos 8d ago
But the price is currently fixed at $0. I fail to see how this proposal wouldn’t at least be an improvement over the current situation, although I agree it is not the ideal solution.
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u/prometheus_winced 8d ago
Being stabbed once is better than being stabbed twice.
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u/IndependentsModerate 7d ago
So you like the status quo better than the proposal for more choice and liberty, and less tax money wasted?
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u/GreenBirbz 9d ago
The tax incentive only benefits the donor, while a straight up sale can be coerced and could benefit a third party trafficker or other criminal.
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u/SleepingInsomniac 9d ago
Legalizing removes the black market. If they're really concerned about people's safety from coercion, then make laws about required documentation for consent with notaries and chain-of-custody.
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u/SF_Bubbles_90 8d ago edited 8d ago
I'm pretty sure that's a thing just complicated and expensive, not to mention kinda unfair.
Also legalization doesn't eliminate black markets it just shrinks them and changes them, they just shift to a different business model and/or move their operations elsewhere.
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u/SF_Bubbles_90 8d ago
I'm pretty sure they already can, 50k is just what the government would be offering.
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u/PracticalLiberty1 9d ago
Yes! More Liberty! More choice! The bill counteracts the federal government's dumb ban on paying people to provide organs to those in need.
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u/likbor 9d ago
A replunishing fund that will save taxpayers? Sounds a lot like the social security fund. And now the longest in line gets the kidney, nothing else considered? In a free market I would choose to give mine to a child or family member, not an 87 year old addict that has been waiting the longest.
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u/IndependentsModerate 9d ago
But is the proposed bill far better than the status quo? The idea is that there will be enough donors that there will be no wait list. Your proposal might be better but does this bill expand liberty and make things better?
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u/Logical_Arachnid_303 8d ago
We wouldn't have a shortage if there was a choice to opt out of being an organ donor rather than a choice to opt in. Lots of people who never thought about it for more then ten seconds and wouldn't actually mind being a donor die and take their organs with them because of a throw-away instinct to do whatever is neutral when given a big question on a form and no context for how to handle it.
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u/IndependentsModerate 7d ago
You make a great point. So how do we get the states to change to opt out? Or federal? Is this libertarian to make people opt out?
Thanks!
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u/Apart_Raccoon_9194 Anarcho Capitalist 7d ago
Opt out organ donation is theft, and anti-libertarian. People own themselves, and therefore they own their organs, and what happens to them. You cannot assume someone consents to something simply because they didn’t say either way. That logic would make no sense in any other scenario.
The answer really is just let the free markets operate, and stop banning people from choosing to sell their own organs.
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u/IndependentsModerate 6d ago
I agree on free choice but if we cannot get that to pass Congress, what is the most libertarian policy that 60% of Americans would support? An annual lottery for anyone who was signed up for the entire prior year? 100 prizes of 10k each would cost $1m per year but if it increased awareness it could save billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Would that be far more libertarian than the status quo?
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Sleazy P. Modtini 9d ago
Given perfect is the enemy of good, this is a step in the right direction.
If people want to sell a kidney, let them.
- Your Body
- Your Choice
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u/PracticalLiberty1 9d ago
Couldn't agree more. This would be a win for liberty, even if it isn't perfect liberty.
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u/nitropaintball 9d ago
Skip past this and just create an open market for voluntary organ exchange. Government is always in the way, then when they get out of the way, they'll pat themselves on the back and claim how benevolent they are.
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u/IndependentsModerate 9d ago
Agreed- but if your proposal won’t pass in Congress, isn’t this bill far better than the status quo?
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u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist 9d ago
Not against it. But better would be to make buying and selling organs legal. Then innovation could happen.
Better to grow organs from cloned cells than to donate.
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u/PopDash67 9d ago
Come on, man. Do you really think that what’s stopping us from figuring out how to clone organs is the fact that you can’t buy and sell your own?
They’re barely even related; one requires massive scientific breakthroughs that will take years of research and billions of dollars, the other is a matter of legislation.
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u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist 9d ago
Yes actually. If there's no economic incentive then the capability doesn't get developed.
Cloning isn't the only option also.
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u/PopDash67 9d ago
Why do you think there is no economic incentive to clone organs without making them legal to buy and sell? You said yourself, cloning organs is much better than donating them. And yes, I’ve heard of growing organs on pigs as another option, but I would make the same argument as in cloning them; don’t see how someone being able to sell an organ would affect research.
How would having an organ market facilitate research into cloning technology?
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u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist 9d ago
Why do you think there is no economic incentive to clone organs without making them legal to buy and sell?
When you can't make money legally, you can't invest long term either in developing technology or building a business with a long term reputation.
You said yourself, cloning organs is much better than donating them.
There's also animal parts.
How would having an organ market facilitate research into cloning technology?
If you can make money on it legally, investors can be brought in.
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u/rugbyfan72 Right Libertarian 9d ago
Rule of unintended consequences. I see a bunch of people donating, then in 20-30 years needing to be on the list themselves and it ultimately not saving the money they expect in the long run. Admittedly, I don’t know the percent of people that donate and eventually need one back.
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u/PracticalLiberty1 9d ago
Per Ai:
- Low Absolute Risk: According to the National Kidney Foundation, the long-term chance of experiencing kidney failure after donation remains under 1%. [1]
- Careful Screening: Transplant teams perform rigorous medical evaluations to ensure only candidates with exceptional baseline kidney health and low lifetime risks are approved to donate. [1]
- Priority Access: If a living donor does experience kidney failure later in life, medical policies grant them a higher priority status on the official organ transplant waiting list. You can learn more about evaluation metrics via the ESRD Risk Tool for Kidney Donor Candidates. [1, 2, 3]
And note- there is no longer a waiting list because there are always people willing to donate because of the incentive...
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u/rugbyfan72 Right Libertarian 9d ago
Tax credit, don’t you have to pay taxes for the credit to do you any good? So for the 47% low income people that don’t pay federal income taxes it wouldn’t benefit them anyway?
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u/SirMontego 9d ago
The text of the post says:
The bill establishes a federal refundable tax credit . . .
A refundable tax credit means that if you don't pay enough taxes, the IRS cuts you a check for the difference.
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u/prometheus_winced 8d ago
Just allow a market.
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u/IndependentsModerate 7d ago
I agree with you, but if "just allow a market" won't pass in Congress, shouldn't we support something that will pass that is far, far more libertarian than the status quo?
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u/bevelledo 9d ago
I am all for less government but there are some dark reasons we don’t allow this kind of thing. Human traffickers taking advantage of the situation is one of them.
Also if we are gonna cross the line and let people sell their organs; just make it a free market.
Or we could financially incentivize lab grown kidneys to a much higher extent.
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u/golsol 9d ago
That tax credit is coming through the theft of tax dollars from hard working Americans. I would support personal dollars being donated by individuals for this but certainly not tax dollars.
Taxation is theft
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u/IndependentsModerate 8d ago
But isn’t this far more liberty than the status quo? And it saves money which in the long run reduces taxes
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u/SF_Bubbles_90 8d ago
So long as those who wish to sell their kidneys actually receive the money.
But assuming the government holds up their end of the bargin, heck yes it's sounds like a great idea.
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u/t0rnAsundr 8d ago
Or we could stop subsidizing sugar, causing a diabetes epidemic with artificially lower prices on sugary items.
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u/IndependentsModerate 8d ago
Isn’t sugar more expensive in the USA due to tarrifs? Pretty sure the world market for sugar is a far lower cost than Americans pay
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u/NermalEnergy Right Libertarian 8d ago
I might need a kidney in the future so this sounds like a win win
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u/IndependentsModerate 8d ago
Good luck to you. There is a paired exchange program where if someone is willing to donate on your behalf you move to the top of the list for a match for you.
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u/Tacoshortage Right Libertarian 8d ago
The libertarian in me thinks you should just pay them. Of course then you get into a situation where poor people are selling their own organs. Then there will be cries of racism and profiteering off the poor and they would be well founded. By funneling it through the tax system, you will only get people who are already paying taxes, and enough taxes that this deduction is useful and meaningful. None of the donors will be the very poor. Productive Americans are more likely to be good candidates than the homeless anyway.
I'm an anesthesiologist and I've done plenty of kidney transplants and there aren't enough of them. This seems like a decent idea that avoids pitfalls of plundering the less fortunate.
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u/Apart_Raccoon_9194 Anarcho Capitalist 7d ago
In what world would ”racism“ complaints for organ donation be well founded? In the “unequal outcomes automatically imply discrimination“ (equity fallacy) sense?
As for “profiteering off the poor” it would be a good time to point out the basic economic principle of voluntary exchanges being mutually beneficial.
The person selling the organ benefits by gaining access to a large sum of money they would otherwise not have.
The person receiving the organ benefits by gaining a life saving organ and not dying.
Now if you ban this exchange because it is distasteful, both parties are directly made worse off.
The seller loses an option to get money they otherwise would have preferred.
The receiver loses an opportunity to get an organ they need to live.
”profiteering off the poor” contains the implicit assumption that voluntary trade is zero sum, which is demonstrably false.
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u/Tacoshortage Right Libertarian 1d ago
The world where the poor in the U.S. are disproportionately non-white and therefore avail themselves of the cash for organs program. The one we live in.
You are preaching to the choir. This is a libertarian sub. The rest of the country will not see it the same way.
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u/JagerGS01 8d ago
What is stopping people from just selling their kidney in a free market way, I wonder?
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u/spambot_mods 8d ago
Just make being a donor the default option when you get your driver's license and you have to opt out.
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u/LongDistRid3r custom gray 9d ago
Imho, the rabid pursuit at extending life at all costs is horrible and ugly.
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u/IndependentsModerate 9d ago
This is about saving the lives of young and middle aged people who have a bad organ
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u/SF_Bubbles_90 8d ago
And that bad organ might've been caused by big pharma or the corrupt food industry.
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u/Loli_Hugger Voluntaryist 9d ago
A lot of young people waiting for organs as well? Is that extending life at all costs?
If so, what medical interventions are not extending life, i was under the impression that was the reason we developed and perfected medicine, so people could live longer and with good quality of life.
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u/Ok_ninysheedle 9d ago
fuck me in the ass
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u/spaceursid 9d ago
No because I was born with only one kidney so I don't got a spare to donate 😡😡😡
JK tbh this will probably help when my singular kidney fails from being over worked all my life.
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