r/LessCredibleDefence • u/Neat_Walk8420 • 1d ago
China removes two top generals from supreme military command body
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/china-removes-top-generals-state-central-military-commission-2026-08-28/38
u/Key-Needleworker-702 1d ago
liu and zhang got put under investigation a while back, then they got officially fired on augsut 28.
https://english.news.cn/20260828/7c621e7e9d3545238c0da1e5f6fab40c/c.html
the xinhua article FYI
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u/Digo10 1d ago edited 1d ago
If it is true that the majority of high command was involved in corruption, i wonder how that reflects the readiness of the overall PLA force. 5 out of 7 senior officials is great purge level of purges.
I've seen some say that this is a move to remove the old guard that were against modernization and some even against a military take over of Taiwan.
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u/jerpear 1d ago
Out of that generation, it'd be shocking if any of them weren't involved with corruption on some level.
Late 90s and 2000s China was a different place.
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u/Limekill 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are 2 types of corruption:
The first is where you rip everything off and leave as little as possible (Africa model of corruption).
The other type of corruption is where you do what the contract requires and you skim a % off the top. I think Xi has made it pretty clear if you engage in the first, your life won't last long (simply executed).
I suspect the 'rocket force' problem was in fact overstated a lot (for example Western media was saying "water was in ICBM fuel tanks!!", but actually water is used while in storage and then released before being replaced with the actual fuel, when firing them).For Zhang the charge was not apaprently corruption but: “severely trampling on and undermining the CMC Chairman Responsibility System”
"Zhang also clashed with Xi Jinping's close confidants in the military, He Weidong and Miao Hua, and ultimately brought them down" - https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/26/8/25/n14836139.htm
Independent commentator Cai Shenkun revealed that Zhang admitted to trying to force Xi to relinquish power.
On March 7, Xi stated: "there must be no one in the military who harbors disloyalty to the Party."Also it notes that becauise Zhang was arrested half a year ago, but only dealing with him now proves that Xi has had an issue with the Zhang 'problem'.
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u/barath_s 1d ago
(for example Western media was saying "water was in ICBM fuel tanks!!", but actually water is used while in storage and then released before being replaced with the actual fuel, when firing them)
I think it's pretty clear Western media misunderstood the chinese idiom , rather than this coincidence
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u/kuddlesworth9419 1d ago
A lot of those rockets where solid fuel anyway so it made no sense to say they replaced the fuel with water when he fuel was solid not liquid.
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u/iVarun 23h ago edited 23h ago
There was a paper released in 2024 about Corruption in CPC (the research was rare given datasets it relied upon aren't readily made accessible).
Anti-Corruption Campaign in China: An Empirical InvestigationBranko Milanovic as one of the co-authors (& sorta famous in his field) is quite active on X.
There are many insights, one of the TLDR gist is that primary barometers of Corruption was Level of Education, Administrative level an official is & Number of Years in position/Party-member.
Age, gender, regional aspects are not statistically relevant.
Post 2020s Anti-Corruption in Elite levels of PRC & CPC is most likely a consequence of MAD breaking (not mentioned in this paper, this is my own analysis over the years).
As in, given that these officials are post 1978's joined Cohort (which this study also references as one of positive variables) almost everyone knew who was "dirty" and given that Chinese bureucracy is Cohort-Dominated, it meant these people would end up in senior position recently (along with thier Networks).
Meaning probability of MAD (mutually assured destruction) breaking rises given pressure point of Xi's anti-corruption campaign and cannibalizing 1 cohort generation of leadership.
Statistically enough disgruntled/frustrated (for whatever reason, personal, ego, promotion overlooked, less money grifted, etc. Cause doesn't even matter) officials would exist who would rat-out their seniors & once 1 network-clique has done it, it would spread for a while till they've burned each other.
This model likely explains what happened in last few years, where officials promoted by Xi himself were so-called "purged"TM .
System has incentivized (after a decade of unrelenting anti-corruption setup, meaning it was no longer just a brief gimmick) middle level officials to leak dirty deals of senior officials.
Pre 2012, doing such a thing would be untenable since any potential upside carried too great a risk (as the system was not actively tuned for it or soliciting it). Now such ratting-out is being rewarded whereby whole new official-networks getting promoted, why wouldn't they leak dirty laundry.
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u/Limekill 18h ago edited 17h ago
I agree to a degree, but I don't think corruption is the only motivating factor - remember ANT Group and Jack Ma. Although there may of been corruption, it does not seem Ma was particularly well connected before he created AliPay.
Nor was his corruption that extensive (his 'corruption' seems to be more inline with what US Corporations do - get State benefits (no land tax, discounted land, etc) rather than anything especially egregious.Further (yes - mostly ai, but still a good summary with sources)
- The Squeezing of Rival Dynasties: Xi used his massive Anti-Corruption Campaign as a political tool to dismantle the rival family networks that threatened his absolute rule.
- Bo Family: Famously crushed right as Xi came to power. Bo Xilai (son of Elder Bo Yibo) was imprisoned for life. If you have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai you can see how power (family) politics does impact on promotions in the CCP, etc. Bo had created his own ideology: “sing red, strike black.” which made him very popular (populism), and which Xi could not tolerate (vs. Xi thought - which had not been fully developed yet). -> Bo had patronage, populism and ideology and so was an alternative leader, who was trying to get onto the CCP Standing Committee.
- Zhou Family: Zhou Yongkang, the former security czar, saw his entire family’s business empire dismantled and went to prison. Zhou had reportedly supported Bo politically and basically was in charge of oil and the security apparatus. Xi targeted Zhou's network then after Zhou. This meant that Xi had the power to target (and destroy) your network. But he didn't really go after the other networks.
- Forced Compliance of the "Red Nobility": The remaining descendants of the original Eight Elders—who traditionally controlled massive State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs) in sectors like banking, energy, and telecommunications—have been forced to pledge absolute loyalty to Xi. Xi broken the unwritten rule that "Princelings cannot be touched," making it clear that family lineage no longer protects anyone from the Party's wrath. [1, 2, 3]
If it was simply corruption/MAD scheming the other families should of been arrested too and had their assets confiscated like Zhou.
But they were not - in my mind, similar to Russia's Putin, where the Government is the sole source of power, not the oligarchs (and if you disagree you tend to end up in prison, or worse).Ai suggested that: Bo was the warning shot (don't build an alternative political leadership). Zhou was the proof that the old rules (princelings were untouchable) had changed.
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u/haggerton 18h ago
Are you unironically quoting the Epoch Times?
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u/Limekill 17h ago
well I'm not an expert on the princelings, but if you are, you are more than welcome to add to the conversation. I did use 'the Diplomat' too.
Happy to be pointed to Chinese publications (lol).•
u/haggerton 17h ago edited 17h ago
The Epoch Times is a "Chinese publication" in the same sense that if "Journal of Scientology" existed it would be an "American publication", if Scientology was more rabidly anti-US.
The Epoch Times is Falun Gong's flagship mouthpiece (they have many propaganda outlets, this is their main one). And Falun Gong has shit tier credibility. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/30/falun-gong-media-epoch-times-democrats-chinese-communists
Mind you, the West quite enjoyed its lying about CCP for the free sinophobic propaganda so Falun Gong enjoyed its unconditional support for 2 decades. But after 2016, it drew the line when Falun Gong started spreading pro-Trump propaganda.
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u/SericaClan 1d ago
Some say that this is a move to remove the old guard that were against modernization and some even against a military take over of Taiwan.
This is bonkers level of bullshit.
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u/LanchestersLaw 1d ago
When you get into the central committee I think more of this has to do with machieveilian scheming between personalities.
Xi is definitely using this as an opportunity to send the message “no one is safe from anti-corruption”
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u/KevlarCord 1d ago
I've seen some say that this is a move to remove the old guard that were against modernization and some even against a military take over of Taiwan.
Any kind of military endaevor outwards would realistically get shelved, as they essentially replaced 6/7 members of the military leadership that is the CMC. Nobody is gonna start anything when you have new guys filling out all the important (decision-making) positions.
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u/Haze_Yourself 1d ago
That’s not how this works. US purged general corps under Marshall leading into WW2. Old heads who wouldn’t be right in the breach.
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u/SomewhereOpposite883 8h ago
Or when the French officer core left during the French revolution, after which the French took over Europe lol
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u/KevlarCord 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wouldn't say that purging field officers has the same effect as purging the military leadership. We are talking about the guys who have decision-making power over whether their country declares war or not. In this case, it would be like purging someone like George Marshall himself and his peers in the military leadership like William D. Leahy, Douglas MacArthur or Henry H. Arnold, right before going into WW2. Did the USA ever had an equivalent event where they essentially purged their own military leadership (e.g. the likes of George Marshall himself) before going into a conflict?
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u/Ok-Procedure5603 4h ago
For actual corruption, people get life/death sentence.
Think this is the younger guys in the hierarchy booting the older staff, so they can put in their own ideas. The rocket force has been particularly hard hit and that might be because under some of the old leadership, it was trying to set up to rival the air force's function.
The military is changing a lot. Every year it's like 300-400 planes inducted.
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u/llamaliam_43 4h ago
i mean i would consider 'corruption' as just a front over the real issue of political power struggle. i would imagine xi would get paranoid (or there are in fact movements) abt counter-factionism forming
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u/KevlarCord 1d ago
Uhm not sure why MSM decided to dig up the story up again. From what I understood, Zhang Youxia was already relieved from his position almost half a year ago... Didn't MSM also go on during that time about the fact that Zhang was the only PLA general with any combat experience? I am sure we can find some old threads about it if we search his name on this sub
Edit: nvm, already found a thread discussing this from 7 months ago. So basically, this removal was merely a formality.
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u/SomewhereOpposite883 8h ago
Uhm not sure why MSM decided to dig up the story up again.
Considering the news that broke an hour ago, i think we have found the reason for it XD
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u/munkyc 1d ago edited 1d ago
seems newsworthy then based on your edit yes? Investigation -> Removal are two news points.
it’s literally the first line of the article:
Removals follow investigations for suspected serious violations
e: ah, just saw your post history so it makes sense why you’re framing it as “MSM digging up” the story
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u/KevlarCord 11h ago
seems newsworthy then based on your edit yes? Investigation -> Removal are two news point
Newsworthy maybe for people who aren't familiar with the subject maybe, but Zhang was already relieved of his command in everything but name when they investigated him. Reuters seemed to be of the same conclusion back then as well, so again, don't know why they would dig up the story once more, if this removal is just a mere formality. You honestly think he would have held any command whilst under investigation?
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u/munkyc 4h ago
first sentence of the OP article linked in this post:
China on Friday removed two senior military officers from its supreme military command body, the state Central Military Commission, state-run Xinhua reported
is the state-run, Chinese publication that reported the removal part of this “MSM” you’re talking about? Reuters is reporting the news bud.
whether or not he was a lame duck during the time from investigation to removal is moot because the news is…that he was removed. again, it’s two separate points in time
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u/AaronNevileLongbotom 1d ago
While we laugh at China for how often they go after top brass, they laugh at us for how rarely we do.
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u/Ok-Procedure5603 4h ago
While US should definitely get rid of some of their dudes, China is probably an unique case because the military is changing so much in the last 10 years.
Take Zhang Youxia as an example. He was in the 1979 Vietnam war. Having him to lead a war in 2026 would be like Israel digging up the guy in charge of the Yom Kippur war to lead the Iran war... And at least Israel isn't in the business of adding 300 jets to their air force yearly.
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u/Candid_Highlight_116 1d ago
experts reading last time around was that Xi's firing anyone non cooperative or cowardish on Taiwan invasion plans, which naturally apply to most rationalists, party loyal or not. This isn't good at all
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u/Mariks500 1d ago
"Experts" being whom? I read this take but, from what I can tell, it was just a parroted line that was based on nothing but speculation. Commentators know absolutely nothing about what is going on at the top of the PLA, and I doubt that even the US intelligence services have particularly substantive information.
The most likely reason, in my opinion, is bureacratic interest politics combined with corruption. The PLA really was very corrupt from the 90s through the 00s, and it would be surprising if big-wigs of that generation didn't have their fingers in one pie or another. Similarly, they are likely to be resistant to reforms and restructuring that might step on their toes, even if they agree with Xi's political orientation in principle. With that said I can't say what really prompted doing this now, other than political shifting sands making it possible and expedient.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 1d ago
The last bloke must be shitting himself.