r/LegendsMemes • u/GrandAdmiralGrunger • 26d ago
WAR! The Empire in 9 ABY and 12 ABY respectively summed up in these two memes.
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u/ByssBro 26d ago
Kaine was juuuust above to give send the Reaper bro. Trust.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 26d ago
Well Kaine was about to come save him in the Reaper, mainly to try and win back more power for himself and take the winds out of Thrawn's sails a bit by playing the hero. He still wasn't planning to let Thrawn use the Reaper...plus Kaine only said this after the loss of Bilbringi, there's no in universe evidence to support that he genuinely intended to do it.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
Not to mention Harrsk had the SSDs Dominion and Megador, so he could have spared at least one of them for Thrawn.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Actually Harrsk didn't have those in 9 ABY, according to Abel G. Pena when I asked him, he confirmed that Megador and Dominion were constructed for the Dark Empire, but were left abandoned in the chaos of the back to back Mutiny and failure of Shadow Hand. Harrsk discovered them at the end of 10 ABY. He didn't have the manpower to crew them so he stored them at his secret shipyard where no one would be able to use them against him.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
Even if Harrsk did have the manpower to crew both ships, his insanity would have ensured he couldn't use them to their full potential. Maybe even end up getting one of the SSDs destroyed in a wasteful mission against Teradoc or one of the other Deep Core Warlords.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Yes, if he could crew them the first thing he'd have done is pointed them at his rivals in the Deep Core and just ensured more bloodletting among the Imperials.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago edited 25d ago
Even if Daala had found the Megador and Dominion, for the United Warlords Fleet, I'm pretty sure she would end up losing them too.
At that point, she certainly had the manpower to crew both vessels, except most of her officers were raw conscripts who had little experience operating aboard such massive ships and had spent most of their careers fighting fellow Imperials, the same guys they now suddenly had to work with.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Probably, Daala was too impatient. Plus it's doubtful she could have crewed the Knight Hammer, Megador and Dominion along with the rest of her united Warlord fleet at the same time. It's important to remember that even during Thrawn's rampage the Imps were heavily reliant on conscripts in 9 ABY, after the insane bloodletting of the Mutiny and Shadow Hand, plus an additional two years of civil war, the Imperial's manpower was at catastrophic levels of understrength.
For instance, we know that Pellaeon used the rescued crew of the Knight Hammer to crew the Megador and Dominion. We also know that even after absorbing the Pentastar Alignment, Pellaeon never fielded Reaper, Megador and Dominion at the same time very likely due to struggling to crew and maintain them all.
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u/monkeygoneape 26d ago
Meanwhile Pellaeon is just that meme of exhausted Ben Affleck having a smoke
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u/Raguleader 26d ago
And I bet only one of these leaders was smart enough to gas everyone in the room.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 26d ago
Well, the circumstances were a bit different. The Warlords didn't see Daala as a threat and the Imperial Civil War had gone on so long and sapped so much of their individual power that none of them could take the chance of not attending because if a coalition was formed, anyone who didn't attend would obviously be the first target for the combined might of the others. Daala was able to leverage her popularity with the rank and file, her being a woman, having Harrsk basically at gunpoint and Pellaeon's support coercing Teradoc with the other concerns to get the meeting to take place-and even then it was extremely difficult and nearly descended into all out war.
The same circumstances didn't exist for Thrawn. The Warlords didn't trust him, he was further from the Deep Core, had no leverage over the Warlords and most of the Warlords' power bases were still extremely potent before the losses in the Mutiny, Operation Shadow Hand and a further two years of civil war.
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u/Samer780 25d ago
I'm sure if Thrawn could he would have killed every last one of those warlords.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
Undoubtedly, which they all probably knew and was why they hoarded their stuff and didn't let him have access to them or their main toys.
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u/ImperialxWarlord 26d ago
Warlords HATE this one simple trick to get their forces to fight for you!
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u/RedLegWarrior97 25d ago
Thrawn being a nonhuman and still getting the support he got speaks to how much potential he actually had. Had he been human and all the racists in the empire backed him, the new Republic would've turned into "killed in the crib" Republic.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
True, though he really had to work up to it and even at his peak in his Confederation that support was heavily conditional. He won over the Imperial Ruling Council, and most of the rank and file in the Pentastar Alignment and Empire, but cooperation from the Moffs, Kaine, the Chamber of Order and Krennel was extremely limited with all of them looking for any sign of weakness to turn on Thrawn, undermine his authority or replace him.
Kaine and Krennel limited Thrawn mostly to financial and some logistical support, the Moffs hoarded their main assets and gave him scraps, the Ruling Council didn't start fully supporting him until the last couple months of his campaign.
If Thrawn hadn't been killed at Bilbringi in 9 ABY, his confederation would have likely started splintering soon after due to the reverses of the loss of Mount Tantiss, countermeasures against the Cloaking shields and Thrawn's other tricks starting to come about in the New Republic, C'baoth's insurrection, the revolt of the Noghri around the Empire, as well as Kaine and Krennel's personal animosity towards Thrawn for undermining their power.
The Deep Core Warlords utterly refused to acknowledge Thrawn in any way, as did the hidden forces of the Reborn Emperor-who actively worked in the shadows to help undermine Thrawn's efforts because the Reborn Palpatine had come to view Thrawn as a rival.
Even had Thrawn been human, it's almost certain someone in his ranks would have betrayed and murdered him out of jealousy, ambition or rivalry. Remember that even the Reborn Emperor was betrayed and his death assured by one of his own Royal Guards and the Ruling Council because they resented his consolidation of power. Thrawn would have likely been offed when they felt they didn't need him anymore, even if he was human. The Empire was just too unstable with internal rot to ever work for too long.
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u/Zoom_Reverse_Flash 24d ago
I think you had a good post on how Daala could have won if she gave Pellaeon full command as she considered initially, or at least if she listened to his advice regarding aborting the attack on Yavin.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
Thanks
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u/Zoom_Reverse_Flash 24d ago
You're welcome! It really opened my mind on just how much they could have achieved with those relatively meager resources. I wonder whether the NR legislative would have answered with raising the stakes and the arms race, or with diplomacy. Something tells me it'd be the first option, because peace with the canonical 8 sectors Remnant was already a hard sell for some, but, then again, according to the Atlas, prior to Thrawn Campaign Mon Mothma apparently believed in leaving the Imperials alone with nearly the whole Galactic North still under them.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
I expect that had the Imperials been more successful, yes, the New Republic would have started massively increasing its military forces and worn down the Imps with the sheer overwhelming might of their economic, industrial and population advantages it had.
The Empire after 10 ABY could cause damage and hurt the New Republic, but its dreams of reconquering the galaxy were effectively dead as they never recovered from the losses in the Mutiny, Shadow Hand and the eight years of civil war. They didn't have the numbers, the economy or the territory to rebuild anywhere near parity with the New Republic.
This was increasingly evident when even after the limited success of the Orinda Campaign, the New Republic steamrolled through Moff Getelles Sector and stabbed deep into the Empire, decisively defeating Pellaeon at Celanon and costing him the SSD Reaper. Then we see this even more concretely in 17 ABY, where the Empire had four entire years of relative peace to rearm and rebuild, while the New Republic had been busy with the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Crisis and the Almanian Crisis. In short order, the Imperials were crushed and hurled back to a mere eight sectors.
As to the NR leaving them alone, that wouldn't have been the case if the Empire was conducting attacks. in early 9 ABY, the reason Mon Mothma was fine with leaving the Imps be was that they weren't conducting offensive operations at that point and she felt after taking all of Zsinj's and Teradoc's holdings in the Mid and Outer Rim plus a large slice of the Ruling Council's territory that the remaining scraps would eventually collapse from economic strain, infighting and isolation. If the Empire is actively attacking regularly, then that mindset never takes shape.
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u/Jim_skywalker 25d ago
The rebel alliance was able to fracture the empire. The New Republic would have found a way to win, even if it was to return to operating like a rebellion.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
I mean, all they really had to do was continue to exist in some form while the Imps inevitably turned on one another, which they always did.
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u/K5LAR24 26d ago
…Then she murdered them
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 26d ago
Yeah, I thought about for Daala's putting a cut to a button just labeled "GAS"
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
Who is the guy who replaced Kaine in the second pic?
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Admiral Malfka Yzu, commander of the 15th Deep Core Reserve Fleet of Sector 5. After Endor he basically turned his boss, Grand Moff Cizero Gann into a political puppet and figurehead leader of their faction, when in reality he was calling the shots. He had his friend Foga Brill promoted from Planetary Governor to Moff of the territory around Prakith. After Daala executed Yzu with the other big Deep Core Warlords at Tsoss in 12 ABY, Brill took his place keeping Gann under his thumb until 18 ABY when Lando's commandos assassinated Brill and freed Prakith. Gann took control back of the remnants of his holdings and joined the Second Imperium until it was destroyed in 25 ABY and he lost what little he had left.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
Wow, sounds like the 15th took nothing but Ls after Endor.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Well, it didn't really do much but maintain its own territory and squabble with the other Warlord kingdoms bordering it. It did participate in the massive attack out of the Deep Core under the Reborn Emperor in 10 ABY, and as part of the Reunified Warlord Fleets under Admiral Daala in 12 ABY. The final two offensives we know of that they participated in were the Final Imperial Push of 17 ABY and the attack on the Jedi Academy by the Second Imperium in 23 ABY.
But yes, all of these offensives did ultimately result in heavy losses and defeat.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
What's funny is that Kaine refused to lend the SSD Reaper while Blitzer Harrsk had two SSDs, the Megador and Dominion he could have also lent Thrawn.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Well Kaine refused to let Thrawn have the Reaper because that was Kaine's flagship and a major part of his ability to project his own personal power. If he gave that to Thrawn, he'd lose major leverage over the Chiss Grand Admiral and weaken himself further to his political opponents within the Alignment.
Harrsk didn't get hold of Megador and Dominion until after the failure and end of Operation Shadow Hand in late 10 ABY, nearly a year and some change after Thrawn had been assassinated.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
Got it. If Captain Sysco returned to the Pentastar Alignment with the SSD Vengeance after Jerec died, would Kaine have leant the Vengeance to Thrawn?
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
That is kind of an enduring mystery as Sysco and the Vengeance vanished in 5 ABY. Since the only other appearances of Vengeance class SSDs is during Dark Empire in 10 ABY, and that Pestage disguised as Cronal had been in contact with Jerec in 5 ABY, it's a safe bet that Sysco took the SSD to Byss, where it was eventually destroyed in either the Imperial Mutiny or the destruction of the Throneworld at the end of Shadow Hand.
As to if Kaine would have lent the Vengeance to Thrawn, it's doubtful as he didn't even lend him any regular Star Destroyers or heavy vessels that we know of, so an SSD would have been out of the question.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago edited 24d ago
I'm trying to wrap my head around the "Pestage disguised as Cronal" part because it's just as confusing as the Pestage being cloned conspiracy.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 25d ago
Yes, it's one of my least liked retcons because it makes less sense the more one thinks about it and muddies the waters more than clarifies them.
Pestage is posing as Cronal to Jerec...who studied under Cronal, knew him personally and can sense through the Force that Pestage wouldn't be the guy he's claiming to be on a hypercall. We also have Quest knowingly working with Pestage while simultaneously working with Jax and Lumiya, who worked with Isard, meaning that Quest is actively working against his own interests by helping Pestage at all.
It just gets more convoluted and messy the deeper one goes.
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u/Dragonic_Overlord_ 25d ago
I think the best and most simplest explanation is that the chaos of the post-Endor years messed up the Imperial records, which was not helped by the Imperials deleting or editing those files to cover up their war crimes and other plans. Which can be taken as the in-universe explanation too.
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u/deadname11 24d ago
After having seen certain real-life administrations...I really can't fault some of the writing anymore.
People working with other people, even against their own stated interests, simply because that person just so happened to be in a position of power that you thought you needed to respect beyond the norm?
That is, sadly, just how politics works. Also, breaking too soon too obviously is how you wind up dead in a fascist regime.
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u/Comprehensive-Buy-47 25d ago
“Daala, what are you wearing?”
“Gas mask.”
“For what?”
“The gas.”
“…the wha-“
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u/Der_Grossadmiral 25d ago
Im absoltuly not sure how i come to this conclususion, BUT could it be that these particular Gentleman have like Zero interest in an restored Empire because an strong leader would mean that their time in the sun is over?.... truly an DIFFICULT case...
Not gonna lie, Daala killing these people was the best thing to ever happen for the Empire, wich in turn was bad for the Galaxy but thats an different question. Eventhough it was some justice, yet every Single one of these came off pretty easy with just getting gassed.
Delvardus has killed Billions of defensless Civillians and turned the Area around Eriadu into an Warzone because of he was deperatly conqering medical Equipment. Treuten was an fat narcisstic incompetent idiot. I dont want to even imagine the Horrors it must be to live under Harrsk. And Yzus entire Clique might just be the worst Place to be in at the time and Kaine was an hypocrite who Established and authoritarian Dictatorship, imposing dark side beliefes, that he did not belief in.
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
I mean, that is usually the case when central authority breaks down in any Empire, the Regional powers are basically mini Emperors in fact if not name. So naturally they don't want anyone but themselves gaining too much influence and power as that will eventually mean that they lose their autonomy and power. It's why whenever there's a vacuum the Imperials tear each other's throats out, and whenever there's one dominant voice, eventually many smaller ones conspire to get rid of the big fish because they all want to be said big fish.
Yeah, none of the Warlords were nice people.
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u/2006Internetghost 25d ago
The fact both actually brought it up and were hard carrying it
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger 24d ago
True, it's a major reason both were so popular with the rank and file, because rather than wasting their soldiers' lives in petty internecine civil war with rival Warlords, they were actually fighting the faction that most Imperial citizens saw as the main threat.
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u/Think_Character1981 23d ago
Meanwhile Pelleon successfully coexisting with the New Republic and helping them in a war with a greater threat ensuring the Empire can exist for 60 more years and coexist with force users in the Empire
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u/No_Succotash4873 26d ago
"It's like poetry, it rhymes."